"Tennessee has a bust problem"

#1
CA_Vol

CA_Vol

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#1
It's hard to argue against the fact that many of our top recruits either do not develop in any meaningful way or take years to do it. It is frankly why I believe we haven't seen the success come yet.

Butch Jones and Tennessee have an alarming deficiency developing talent

"Since Butch Jones took over at Tennessee in December of 2012, he's gotten his fair share of those Top100-caliber recruits. In the classes of 2013, 2014 and 2015, Jones has brought in 10 players out of the high school ranks that fell into the Top100 according to the recruiting industry generated 247Sports Composite.

Those players were:

DT, Kahlil McKenzie (No. 6, class of 2015)

WR, Josh Malone (No. 36, class of 2014)

DE, Kyle Phillips (No. 36, class of 2015)

RB, Jalen Hurd (No. 40, class of 2014)

WR, Preston Williams (No. 48, class of 2015)

DT, Shy Tuttle (No. 53, class of 2015)

OT, Drew Richmond (No. 54, class of 2015)

S, Todd Kelly Jr. (No. 61, class of 2014)

WR, Marquez North (No. 90, class of 2013)

LB, Dillon Bates (No. 95, class of 2014)

Since arriving on campus, that group has been a collective bust. If we say that a Top100 player should correlate in talent to a NFL draft pick in the first three rounds (which is the way 247Sports projects our rankings), then Tennessee has hit on three of 10 if we're being generous.

Two of those hits would be Shy Tuttle and Jalen Hurd. While Tuttle has been very good when he's on the field, injury issues have rendered him ineffective this fall. Meanwhile Hurd has voluntarily left the team just a few yards shy of Tennessee's all-time rushing record. NFL sources have indicated to me that despite his red flags, he's still very much in the picture as a high draft pick.

After a slow start to his career, Josh Malone is having a breakout junior season at wide receiver and still has time to "make it," so we included him in the three-out-of-10 tally. McKenzie, Richmond and Phillips still have time to develop, too, even if it looks unlikely that they fulfill their lofty expectations. Preston Williams flashed early in his career but if he matches his ranking it will be at Colorado State, where he's transferred.

So that puts Tennessee in a best-case scenario of a 30 percent hit rate on franchise players. Of course maybe it's not Tennessee's fault that its players are overrated. But when you compare similarly ranked players at some of Tennessee's rivals, there's a huge discrepancy in that hit rate."
 
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#2
#2
Malone, Tuttle, and Mckenzie, are good. Richmond seems to be coming along now. Kelly is average. Bates hasn't done anything. North didn't do much outside two great catches. Phillips hasn't done anything. Hurd quit. Williams quit.
 
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#3
#3
CA_Vol said:
It's hard to argue against the fact that many of our top recruits either do not develop in any meaningful way or take years to do it. It is frankly why I believe we haven't seen the success come yet.

Butch Jones and Tennessee have an alarming deficiency developing talent

"Since Butch Jones took over at Tennessee in December of 2012, he's gotten his fair share of those Top100-caliber recruits. In the classes of 2013, 2014 and 2015, Jones has brought in 10 players out of the high school ranks that fell into the Top100 according to the recruiting industry generated 247Sports Composite.

Those players were:

DT, Kahlil McKenzie (No. 6, class of 2015)

WR, Josh Malone (No. 36, class of 2014)

DE, Kyle Phillips (No. 36, class of 2015)

RB, Jalen Hurd (No. 40, class of 2014)

WR, Preston Williams (No. 48, class of 2015)

DT, Shy Tuttle (No. 53, class of 2015)

OT, Drew Richmond (No. 54, class of 2015)

S, Todd Kelly Jr. (No. 61, class of 2014)

WR, Marquez North (No. 90, class of 2013)

LB, Dillon Bates (No. 95, class of 2014)

Since arriving on campus, that group has been a collective bust. If we say that a Top100 player should correlate in talent to a NFL draft pick in the first three rounds (which is the way 247Sports projects our rankings), then Tennessee has hit on three of 10 if we're being generous.

Two of those hits would be Shy Tuttle and Jalen Hurd. While Tuttle has been very good when he's on the field, injury issues have rendered him ineffective this fall. Meanwhile Hurd has voluntarily left the team just a few yards shy of Tennessee's all-time rushing record. NFL sources have indicated to me that despite his red flags, he's still very much in the picture as a high draft pick.

After a slow start to his career, Josh Malone is having a breakout junior season at wide receiver and still has time to "make it," so we included him in the three-out-of-10 tally. McKenzie, Richmond and Phillips still have time to develop, too, even if it looks unlikely that they fulfill their lofty expectations. Preston Williams flashed early in his career but if he matches his ranking it will be at Colorado State, where he's transferred.

So that puts Tennessee in a best-case scenario of a 30 percent hit rate on franchise players. Of course maybe it's not Tennessee's fault that its players are overrated. But when you compare similarly ranked players at some of Tennessee's rivals, there's a huge discrepancy in that hit rate."
Click to expand...

I think it's a developmental problem...which lays at Butch
 
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#5
#5
I beg to disagree. The problem is that Jones refuses to move away from his own arrogance. A good coach devises a game approach that fits the players' skills rather than demand that their skills fit his scheme. Square pegs do not fit in round holes. He even hired a yes-man as OC rather than anyone that would challenge the comfort zone.

Although I abhor that he quit, Hurd needed a fullback. There isn't one on the roster. Richmond is a line of scrimmage type rather than a perimeter player. There are many examples. It goes beyond development and is more about being stubborn.
 
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#6
#6
I would hardly call Hurd, Malone, Tuttle, or TK jr. busts. That's just silly. McKenzie was coming off of a broken leg and didn't even play his senior year. Richmond has been doing much better and is just a rs freshman. Preston Williams quit and Hurd was on pace to break UT's rushing record. Kyle Phillips and Dillon Bates have been busts; 2 out of 10 is hardly Earth shattering no matter how much you want it to be.
 
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#7
#7
Bauce said:
I think it's a developmental problem...which lays at Butch
Click to expand...

In the 2000's there have been many *real* busts at Tennessee going back to Fulmer, Kiffin. Those 2 had much much more busts. That article is funny lol. The media trols Volnation and many aren't even aware lol. I could take that article change some names and make it fit like 100 different schools.
 
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#8
#8
Here is where they are:
DT, Kahlil McKenzie (No. 6, class of 2015) : Starting Tackle next season. Has had a decent season this year in one of the toughest line of scrimmage leagues. Only Sophomore this year.

WR, Josh Malone (No. 36, class of 2014): Top 5 WR in stats in SEC in most category. Top 2 in TDs.

DE, Kyle Phillips (No. 36, class of 2015): Played behind 'phenomenon' DB and excellent senior Corey Vereen for last two seasons. Will be starting Junior next year. Has contributed well. Played Tackle when needed.

RB, Jalen Hurd (No. 40, class of 2014): Before he quit was on track to be leading rusher in UT history. Lead UT to all time high overall rushing season in 2015.

WR, Preston Williams (No. 48, class of 2015): Bust

DT, Shy Tuttle (No. 53, class of 2015): Due to injuries has played two half seasons. Was one of the best DTs in the roster despite being freshman last year and injured off season. Look at production stats.

OT, Drew Richmond (No. 54, class of 2015): Not the star we thought he would be so far. Still has 3 years to play. Started games for UT this season.

S, Todd Kelly Jr. (No. 61, class of 2014): Full time starter. Lead UT in tackles this season for most part. Impressive stats overall.

WR, Marquez North (No. 90, class of 2013): Biggest bust after showing promise early on. That one handed catch remains his highlight reel.

LB, Dillon Bates (No. 95, class of 2014): This dude is surprising. Highly rated prospect who was injured early on but has been passed by a lot of people on depth chart. Even when we were playing 3rd, 4th stringers he wasn't seeing field. Bust so far. Still has 2 years left.

So I counted 3 busts out of 10. Depends what your definition of bust is. If you think anyone who isn't NFL pick type guy is a bust then many be but most are playing in SEC and contributing to team, starting in their positions etc.

You missed few busts (though may not be top 100 guys) like Dontavious Blair, Justin Martin etc but there were some great success stories like Cam Sutton, Alvin Kamara, Dobbs etc too.
 
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#9
#9
landscapingvol said:
I would hardly call Hurd, Malone, Tuttle, or TK jr. busts. That's just silly. McKenzie was coming off of a broken leg and didn't even play his senior year. Richmond has been doing much better and is just a rs freshman. Preston Williams quit and Hurd was on pace to break UT's rushing record. Kyle Phillips and Dillon Bates have been busts; 2 out of 10 is hardly Earth shattering no matter how much you want it to be.
Click to expand...

He didn't call them busts. You need to reread the article my fellow vol.
 
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#12
#12
landscapingvol said:
I would hardly call Hurd, Malone, Tuttle, or TK jr. busts. That's just silly. McKenzie was coming off of a broken leg and didn't even play his senior year. Richmond has been doing much better and is just a rs freshman. Preston Williams quit and Hurd was on pace to break UT's rushing record. Kyle Phillips and Dillon Bates have been busts; 2 out of 10 is hardly Earth shattering no matter how much you want it to be.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't call anyone a bust who still has two years of eligibility left. Their careers are just half way over. In the case of Phillips, what was he supposed to do, beat out Derek Barnett or Corey Vereen? That is premature to say the least. Also, to imply that Shy Tuttle is injury prone isn't fair either. A 310 lineman dove at his shin.
 
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#15
#15
The author of this crap would have called Reggie White a bust after his sophomore season in 1981... Actually, Reggie didn't do much until his monster senior season in '83.

Here are some other 'busts' - if you only include their first two years of eligibility:

Jason Witten (made very little impact until the Citrus Bowl vs Michigan at the end of 2001)
Robert Meachem (didn't do much until his junior year in 2006)
 
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#16
#16
OrangeByBirth said:
I beg to disagree. The problem is that Jones refuses to move away from his own arrogance. A good coach devises a game approach that fits the players' skills rather than demand that their skills fit his scheme. Square pegs do not fit in round holes. He even hired a yes-man as OC rather than anyone that would challenge the comfort zone.

Although I abhor that he quit, Hurd needed a fullback. There isn't one on the roster. Richmond is a line of scrimmage type rather than a perimeter player. There are many examples. It goes beyond development and is more about being stubborn.
Click to expand...

You can correctly cite other issues. But there's just no denying that Butch and this staff is poor at developing and managing their players....especially their most talented, highest profile players. Simmons did a nice job cataloging and pointing it all out IMO.
 
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#17
#17
KBVol said:
You can correctly cite other issues. But there's just no denying that Butch and this staff is poor at developing and managing their players....especially their most talented, highest profile players. Simmons did a nice job cataloging and pointing it all out IMO.
Click to expand...

Bull $hit!
 
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#19
#19
KBVol said:
You can correctly cite other issues. But there's just no denying that Butch and this staff is poor at developing and managing their players....especially their most talented, highest profile players. Simmons did a nice job cataloging and pointing it all out IMO.
Click to expand...

it did get a bit in to the weeds when he starting with the "if i count this guy or that guy, then it's this"....

but the overall point, especially for O linemen, WR and DB's....there's not been any real debate about the lack of development taking place.

it's the result of a lot of the symptoms that have been discussed here already....s&c program needs to be improved immensely.....position coaches need to be better teachers.....coordinators and HC need to be able to put them all in better situations to succeed.

i don't think anyone can say there's not a development issue. too many positions you can point and rightfully argue there's been regression. too few that show real progress.
 
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#20
#20
Im glad a lot of these articles are coming out exposing Butch Jones because if you go look back at my past threads I have said all of these things about Butch:

1. Not Developing Talent
2. Not Coaching to "elite talent" strengths
3. Not recognizing his own "in game" management deficiencies
4. Butch is always 1 or 2 steps late to the show when it comes time to making adjustments
5. Too conservative play calling
6. He never allowed Dobbs to be the "great" QB until he was forced to and usually the team was behind by 14+ points
7. He didn't recognize how "soft" this team and previous teams were

Somebody tell me to stop........ hahahahaha
 
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#21
#21
CA_Vol said:
It's hard to argue against the fact that many of our top recruits either do not develop in any meaningful way or take years to do it. It is frankly why I believe we haven't seen the success come yet.

Butch Jones and Tennessee have an alarming deficiency developing talent

"Since Butch Jones took over at Tennessee in December of 2012, he's gotten his fair share of those Top100-caliber recruits. In the classes of 2013, 2014 and 2015, Jones has brought in 10 players out of the high school ranks that fell into the Top100 according to the recruiting industry generated 247Sports Composite.

Those players were:

DT, Kahlil McKenzie (No. 6, class of 2015)

WR, Josh Malone (No. 36, class of 2014)

DE, Kyle Phillips (No. 36, class of 2015)

RB, Jalen Hurd (No. 40, class of 2014)

WR, Preston Williams (No. 48, class of 2015)

DT, Shy Tuttle (No. 53, class of 2015)

OT, Drew Richmond (No. 54, class of 2015)

S, Todd Kelly Jr. (No. 61, class of 2014)

WR, Marquez North (No. 90, class of 2013)

LB, Dillon Bates (No. 95, class of 2014)

Since arriving on campus, that group has been a collective bust. If we say that a Top100 player should correlate in talent to a NFL draft pick in the first three rounds (which is the way 247Sports projects our rankings), then Tennessee has hit on three of 10 if we're being generous.

Two of those hits would be Shy Tuttle and Jalen Hurd. While Tuttle has been very good when he's on the field, injury issues have rendered him ineffective this fall. Meanwhile Hurd has voluntarily left the team just a few yards shy of Tennessee's all-time rushing record. NFL sources have indicated to me that despite his red flags, he's still very much in the picture as a high draft pick.

After a slow start to his career, Josh Malone is having a breakout junior season at wide receiver and still has time to "make it," so we included him in the three-out-of-10 tally. McKenzie, Richmond and Phillips still have time to develop, too, even if it looks unlikely that they fulfill their lofty expectations. Preston Williams flashed early in his career but if he matches his ranking it will be at Colorado State, where he's transferred.

So that puts Tennessee in a best-case scenario of a 30 percent hit rate on franchise players. Of course maybe it's not Tennessee's fault that its players are overrated. But when you compare similarly ranked players at some of Tennessee's rivals, there's a huge discrepancy in that hit rate."
Click to expand...

So your "NFL sources" keep you in the loop as where I players should fall in the draft? Interesting! What other interestng tid bits do they offer in relation to our team?
 
#22
#22
Injuries plagued this team no doubt, but the development of the other players beyond starters is terrible. It almost seems as if the starters practiced with the other starters and back ups played Yahtzee during practice. Absolutely no reason why a second yr player has no clue what he's doing on the field offense or defense. S&C was awful this yr, if CBJ plan is smaller faster guys then we will not win more than 8-9 games a yr.

Take a peak at some of the other linemen in the league and look how massive these guys are compared to our starters, not over weight massive but strong big guys on both sides of ball. Point is our coach has a philosophy that doesn't work in the SEC, O can score sure but when we match up against really good D out guys were pushed around big time and our D when they were at full strength got bullied by App St OL, there's a problem on the hill with development and it starts with CBJ
 
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#23
#23
Ed Oliver is being compared to Ndamukong Suh as a freshman.

Fournette was a 1000 yard rusher as a freshman.

Bosa was a freshman All American and playing for the Big 10 title as a freshman.

Eason has had his ups and downs but nearly beat the Vols this season and put up a solid stat line.

Jalen Hurd was the only one out of the 10 to have anywhere near the impact of those guys as a freshman and Jones figured out a way to run him off despite being just short of the all time rushing record for the school.

Anyone that doesn't agree with Simmons that player development is lacking has their Butch blinders on. With the injuries at LB and the O line struggles, it's coaching malpractice that Bates and Richmond haven't gotten full time starting jobs at this point.
 
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#24
#24
JonGrudensAgent said:
Ed Oliver is being compared to Ndamukong Suh as a freshman.

Fournette was a 1000 yard rusher as a freshman.

Bosa was a freshman All American and playing for the Big 10 title as a freshman.

Eason has had his ups and downs but nearly beat the Vols this season and put up a solid stat line.

Jalen Hurd was the only one out of the 10 to have anywhere near the impact of those guys as a freshman and Jones figured out a way to run him off despite being just short of the all time rushing record for the school.

Anyone that doesn't agree with Simmons that player development is lacking has their Butch blinders on. With the injuries at LB and the O line struggles, it's coaching malpractice that Bates and Richmond haven't gotten full time starting jobs at this point.
Click to expand...

*Cough* Derek Barnett *Clear Throat*

These 10 players don't tell the whole story. This is a superficial hit piece.
 
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#25
#25
1truevol said:
So your "NFL sources" keep you in the loop as where I players should fall in the draft? Interesting! What other interestng tid bits do they offer in relation to our team?
Click to expand...

Much like Jones likes to say that " players develop at their own pace", it appears that you're developing as a poster as well.

OP cut and paste that from the article, he wasn't saying he personally had NFL sources.
 
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