Talent Wins Games- Model

#26
#26
sjt18 said:
Seems that many take an "either or" position. Either you accept the premise that it is all about the "Jimmie's and Joe's" or else you don't think recruiting/talent are important.

Finding talent is ALWAYS important but so is what the coach does with whatever talent he has. Saban recruits and coaches well. Meyer to this point is a weaker recruiter than coach. Richt is a better recruiter than coach.

To get to where I personally would like to see UT get... you need a great recruiter who can coach at an elite level. Most of my arguments seem to be with people satisfied with far... FAR less.
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Like scraping by at the bottom of the SEC.
 
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#29
#29
Talent is always the main component by a wide margin in successful programs. Sure the miss st, ole miss, auburn's, etc can win a few big games here and there on coaching ability to hide some of the weaknesses, but Bama wins and will win consistently. There staff is no better than Mullin's or Friese's, they just get the best of the best and trot em out there each week, year after year. When talent is equal, or no negligible difference, it will be coaching that takes over, plus breaks,and turnovers. When in doubt on how much talent takes over, look at Escambia HS that Emmitt Smith attended. The coach turned out to be a genius for two years.
 
#30
#30
roddo518 said:
Talent is always the main component by a wide margin in successful programs. Sure the miss st, ole miss, auburn's, etc can win a few big games here and there on coaching ability to hide some of the weaknesses, but Bama wins and will win consistently. There staff is no better than Mullin's or Friese's, they just get the best of the best and trot em out there each week, year after year. When talent is equal, or no negligible difference, it will be coaching that takes over, plus breaks,and turnovers. When in doubt on how much talent takes over, look at Escambia HS that Emmitt Smith attended. The coach turned out to be a genius for two years.
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Ole Miss and Auburn both have plenty of talent right now. And Alabama's staff is miles better than MSU's and Ole Miss', and is better than Auburn's, although Auburn is much closer with the Muschamp hire. Alabama with Kiffin probably has the best staff in college football. Kiffin is very good at the matchup game. He will find your weakness and attack it.Yes they have Amari Cooper but it's not like they have exceptional talents littered through that receiving corps, just good players. He just gets the most out of what he's got.
 
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#31
#31
sjt18 said:
Seems that many take an "either or" position. Either you accept the premise that it is all about the "Jimmie's and Joe's" or else you don't think recruiting/talent are important.

Finding talent is ALWAYS important but so is what the coach does with whatever talent he has. Saban recruits and coaches well. Meyer to this point is a weaker recruiter than coach. Richt is a better recruiter than coach.

To get to where I personally would like to see UT get... you need a great recruiter who can coach at an elite level. Most of my arguments seem to be with people satisfied with far... FAR less.
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Not satisfied...just far more realistic and patient.
 
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#32
#32
sjt18 said:
Which came first the egg or the chicken? I can pretty much guarantee that Saban doesn't consult Rivals, 247, or Scout before offering a kid. Like all the others, he has a private recruiting service that collates recruit information for him, profiles recruits, and then probably makes recommendations.

Now the other side of that isn't quite as clear cut. The public recruiting sites DO make some evals of their own based on camps and HS performance. However they ALSO give weight to the opinions of coaches who have demonstrated the ability to find great players.

IOW's, Saban's opinion has more bearing on who Rivals gives 5* to than Rivals giving a kid 5* has on Saban.

Saban gets talent because he has a great recruiting process for finding and landing talented players.
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This is silly. There is no way a coach's private service can keep up with in depth evaluations of thousands of prospects.
 
#33
#33
ptclaus98 said:
Ole Miss and Auburn both have plenty of talent right now. And Alabama's staff is miles better than MSU's and Ole Miss', and is better than Auburn's, although Auburn is much closer with the Muschamp hire. Alabama with Kiffin probably has the best staff in college football. Kiffin is very good at the matchup game. He will find your weakness and attack it.Yes they have Amari Cooper but it's not like they have exceptional talents littered through that receiving corps, just good players. He just gets the most out of what he's got.
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It must be nice getting the most out of the best players. Yes, Auburn was very close in talent last year, therefore it came down to coaching and making a break. I'm not saying you can't beat Bama, ole miss did this year with a much less talented team, I'm saying all that talent don't take a day off. They will consistently win because they are number one on recruiting year in and year out. Ole miss and miss st couldn't sustain it. Depth hurt ole miss badly. A consistent team are the ones loaded with the talent. They are also the ones that win the Ncs.
 
#34
#34
butchna said:
Not satisfied...just far more realistic and patient.
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Whatever makes you feel good. "Realistically", there are only VERY rare exceptions where a coach doesn't make an immediate positive impact on W/L's then goes on to do anything substantial... and even fewer in the modern era. This staff has NOT proven that it can compete in the SEC.

Patience if they in fact can't compete.... looks a WHOLE lot more like "unrealistic" wishful thinking.
 
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#35
#35
orange parmejohn said:
This is silly. There is no way a coach's private service can keep up with in depth evaluations of thousands of prospects.
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You need to do some research. These services are private but they work for more than one program. They do not publicly advertise or publish their information for public viewing.
 
#36
#36
Oh, and "realistically", this staff at UT has yet to beat a team with more talent. They have lost to teams with less talent though. Even if they recruit well but cannot start winning because THEY can outcoach someone with more talent... they will establish the ceiling at "also ran".

If your idea is to "patiently" wait for 2+ more years to finally become an "also ran"... then we just don't have the same idea about what UT football should be.
 
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#37
#37
sjt18 said:
Oh, and "realistically", this staff at UT has yet to beat a team with more talent. They have lost to teams with less talent though. Even if they recruit well but cannot start winning because THEY can outcoach someone with more talent... they will establish the ceiling at "also ran".
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People who don't see this are duped. This site is full of people who act like Butch ahs a bunch of 2-star C-USA athletes all over the field. That's not the case. Right now, his ceiling is 8-9 wins. That's not what we want. If Butch isn't willing to make staff changes, particularly on the offensive side of the ball --and nothing in his history suggests that he is-- then that will remain his ceiling.
 
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#38
#38
Gandalf said:
Now you know why we are so appreciative of CBJ's recruiting efforts. When 70% of your game is getting the right talent on the field and 30% is coaching them up and playcalling - it means that if you are in the top 5 recruiting year after year, even if you are in the 50th percentile coaching, you are a 8-10 win program, even in the SEC. If you are also good at coaching them up, you can win your conference and if you can add to both of those having gameday skills, you compete for the NC.

Recruiting makes programs -> coaching up talent makes conference winners -> game day coaching makes champions (and each one is predicated on the one before it)
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Makes sense to me. I think the first two are falling into place. Here's hoping game day coaching will be a non issue soon.
 
#39
#39
sjt18 said:
Oh, and "realistically", this staff at UT has yet to beat a team with more talent. They have lost to teams with less talent though. Even if they recruit well but cannot start winning because THEY can outcoach someone with more talent... they will establish the ceiling at "also ran".

If your idea is to "patiently" wait for 2+ more years to finally become an "also ran"... then we just don't have the same idea about what UT football should be.
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So whAt? Saban hasn't beaten a team with more talent either. He has lost to several either less talent.
 
#40
#40
roddo518 said:
It must be nice getting the most out of the best players. Yes, Auburn was very close in talent last year, therefore it came down to coaching and making a break. I'm not saying you can't beat Bama, ole miss did this year with a much less talented team, I'm saying all that talent don't take a day off. They will consistently win because they are number one on recruiting year in and year out. Ole miss and miss st couldn't sustain it. Depth hurt ole miss badly. A consistent team are the ones loaded with the talent. They are also the ones that win the Ncs.
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Coaching brings you to the the top, talent keeps you there. Texas, Florida, Notre Dame, USC all have more talent than most of the teams they play, yet all of them are mediocre. We could have all of the talent in the world, but we aren't physical enough on offense to make this offense successful in this league, and we are predictable on defense. We can't defend everyone in the conference and most of that is because our offense can't stay on the field long enough because we are super conservative on first and second down, horrible at short yardage, and we don't cover up our weaknesses with change in scheme or design of the offense.
 
#42
#42
sjt18 said:
Whatever makes you feel good. "Realistically", there are only VERY rare exceptions where a coach doesn't make an immediate positive impact on W/L's then goes on to do anything substantial... and even fewer in the modern era. This staff has NOT proven that it can compete in the SEC.

Patience if they in fact can't compete.... looks a WHOLE lot more like "unrealistic" wishful thinking.
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Yep, expecting a guy to suddenly make a big impact in his 4th or 5th year when he's been nothing more than average the first few years is the very definition of "unrealistic expectations"
 
#45
#45
BeattieFeathers said:
So whAt? Saban hasn't beaten a team with more talent either. He has lost to several either less talent.
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Others have answered this well but if Jones gets UT to a point where they have more talent than anyone in the country year in, year out... then I think most of us will give him a pass if he slips up and loses a game or 2 per year once in awhile like Saban does.

After his first year at Bama, Saban has avg'd 1.25 losses per year. If Jones gets there... then we can certainly forgive him for losing to a team with great but slightly less talent once per year on avg.
 
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