Support vs. Principle

[volfanjustin]

This staff coached a walk on lineman to the first pick in the draft......maybe, just maybe and I will admit this is a crazy thought.......some players are just better than others no matter what their star ranking was back in high school.

And have sucked with the group at Tennessee in 2013 and 2014, I don't give a damn what they did 4 years ago at another school with 1 guy.

 

[sjt18]

They are back pedaling likely to try and keep from getting beat but they do it so aggressively it's actually aiding them getting beat. We are gaining no confidence on the line or at the QB spot and honestly that is what concerns me more than anything. Just the appearance that fear or failure is creeping in. That's a season killer.

I could buy that if the problem was isolated to pass protection. Pass protection is obviously the worst... but run blocking isn't a whole lot better and other than a few influence type blocks... run blocking is usually about attacking.

I'm not a OL coach so to get into the deepest details of everything that's going wrong is beyond my expertise.

Then again, I'm not an auto mechanic either. But I know what a good running car is like... and have the good sense to know who to take my car to if one guy has proven he can fix problems and another hasn't.


The excusers LOVE to throw out straw men about unreasonable expectations or "Fahr the coach". But with VERY rare exceptions the expectations here have been extremely tempered. The two big things seem to be "improve" and win 6. That's simply not setting the bar too high... but right now we're not seeing the improvement and six wins is far from a slam dunk the way they're playing.

The competition declines steeply after this week. Jones has a prime opportunity to "turn the season around". The RIGHT coach for UT will win games. They'll win almost all of the ones when they have a talent advantage and a good many when they don't. That's what it will take to win at UT. If Jones isn't the right guy then he's not. I hope he is but I don't ASSUME that he is. It is up to him to earn that trust and confidence.

IF he wins less than 6 games then he HAS earned a hot seat and has NOT earned "patience". Coaches coach. Great coaches... coach great. We aren't seeing anything like "greatness" right now.

 

[volfannga]

We were out of town this weekend and the only option we had was watching the game on the internet. The feed had no announcers and the only camera angle we got was the cabled camera which moves above the field. It was always above or behind the QB amd I must say it was a different way to watch a game. It was like watching the game from Worleys view. I am not going to say he did not make poor decisions, they all do, but most plays by the time he caught the snap and looked up he already had someone closing in. No doubt he feels under duress on every play and after 7 games he has to be feeling it. He has to be one sore puppy, and with Bama coming in it wont get better. While I think we have the talent to win 3 of the last 4, I dont know that we can as banged up as we are.

It's hard watching them take a beating like they did Saturday for sure. I am a process person by occupation and did not set my expectations for this year on W. I wanted to see us play hard and compete with discipline. I am not an excuse person and HATE to lose, but we just don't have the horses up front right now up front. When Fulmer has us rushing the ball on 3rd and 2 and the defense knowing it was coming none of the players would have been on the field except for maybe Crowder because they haven't grown into the position. Maturation doesn't happen instantly and certainly not here.

I expect us to keep getting better but thebgap between us and the top 4-5 teams in this league is too great to overcome in 1-2 years. We did not have the inventory of OL we needed when CBJ got here. First he has to get em in. Feed em and push them in the weight room. Coach them up. We seem to think we can push kids past the feed em and push them in the weight room steps and yet win against SEC defenses. I know we don't want to hear it or think it but I am not thinking we compete for the SEC East before 2017. Just one humble man's opinion.

 

[sjt18]

Sabah struggling at Mich state his first four yrs might be more relevant though.

He did... and would have been fired if things had not turned around that last year. OTOH, he didn't take over a strong program there but still didn't post a losing record there. He cut his teeth on MSU then no one can deny his success at LSU and Bama. The SEC... isn't where you learn how to coach. There is no OJT for a HC in the SEC. It is where upper tier coaches survive and elite coaches win championships. Anything below that... doesn't cut it.

 

[Smokie_is_my_dude]

Most coaches can't cross over. Sheridan was a very good NFL coach who flopped at TAM. Spurrier and Saban who are two of the best CFB coaches failed in the NFL.

It is a different game and skill set for a coach.

I honestly can't believe you think you have some kind of point with that comment.

The point im making is that PLAYERS have a HUGE role in a coaches success. NFL coaches have hardly any input on the players they get(I think its reasonable to say thats why Saban and Spurrier didnt make it". In college, it is solely up to the coach to get HIS players. It is harder to win when you dont have your players. It is even harder to win when you dont have your players, and the players you do have are no good.Just like in the NFL, a college coach's success relies on the players he gets(not 100%, coaches have a role too). But it doesn't matter how good a coach is, if his team is significantly less talented, he wont win.

 

[Smokie_is_my_dude]

Sabah struggling at Mich state his first four yrs might be more relevant though.

Good point. He struggled his first 4 years until.......he got HIS players. He cycled through the old players, and changed the "culture". Same thing Jones is doing here. At least we're on the same page......i think. lol

 

[McDad]

I've defended Worley often when I thought guys were blaming him too much. The primary problem on O from a player standpoint is the OL. But Worley hasn't helped at times. Maybe he's getting gun shy because he can't trust protection. I'm not sure but would understand that. But IMO, the OL has been worse over the past three games but so has Worley. Forced errors are understandable but he's starting to have some unforced errors too. Like the first pick the other night. There was no reason not to put a little more air under that ball so the DB had no chance to play it. If he had thrown it just a tad high and given Malone a couple of steps to adjust then it might have even been a TD.

I like Worley. I sympathize with him. I still believe he has talent and is UT's best option right now... but he's taken a step back as well.

I can expect a bit of bipolar play from players with little experience. The first touchdown (i believe it was the first one) against Emanuel Mosely as an example. He got beat on the play but once i saw who was defending, i settled down a bit. I expect the o line to have days of good performance (Georgia) and days of horrible performance (take your pick). Worley, while very tough, is really an anomaly. A senior guy who exhibiting some bi polar tendencies. Great fourth quarter against UGA and then some excruciatingly bad decisions with Florida and Ole Miss. The first interception was a touchdown with about 5 more yards added to the pass. I'm baffled that he is still fumbling on the blind side sacks. He looks decent when he keeps the ball and he doesn't do it nearly enough. It's a very strange team on the offensive side. Little identity. Little consistency. Hurd and Helm may be our most consistently good performers; and that says a lot.

 

[Smokie_is_my_dude]

I can expect a bit of bipolar play from players with little experience. The first touchdown (i believe it was the first one) against Emanuel Mosely as an example. He got beat on the play but once i saw who was defending, i settled down a bit. I expect the o line to have days of good performance (Georgia) and days of horrible performance (take your pick). Worley, while very tough, is really an anomaly. A senior guy who exhibiting some bi polar tendencies. Great fourth quarter against UGA and then some excruciatingly bad decisions with Florida and Ole Miss. The first interception was a touchdown with about 5 more yards added to the pass. I'm baffled that he is still fumbling on the blind side sacks. He looks decent when he keeps the ball and he doesn't do it nearly enough. It's a very strange team on the offensive side. Little identity. Little consistency. Hurd and Helm may be our most consistently good performers; and that says a lot.

I think the thing with Worley is that because the Oline is bad, he feels like he has to take a chance when he DOES get time, because there is no telling when he will get another good chance. As for the blind side sacks/fumbles, its hard to hang on to the ball when you get hit like that. Happens to alot of people. It just happens to him more because he gets hit a lot more. He does make some choices that leave you scratching your head, but we dont have a better option, and he is capable of playing well enought to beat teams. People have jumped off the Worley ship, after paddling like crazy after those first few games.

 

[daj2576]

What about last year? First string o line and we still lost to Vandy and a pathetic 4-8 Florida

Fulmer and Manning lost to Memphis. Even a national championship coach, and a hall of fame QB can crap the bed on occassion.

Vandy beat UGA, Florida and UT last year. It wasn't like UT was their only win.

And...it isn't like that oline had ever been on a winning team but so many seem to believe that last year was an anomaly that indicts Jones. Likely those same people were in the 'Jancek/Martinez got fired from UGA and can't coach' crowd too.

 

[McDad]

I think the thing with Worley is that because the Oline is bad, he feels like he has to take a chance when he DOES get time, because there is no telling when he will get another good chance. As for the blind side sacks/fumbles, its hard to hang on to the ball when you get hit like that. Happens to alot of people. It just happens to him more because he gets hit a lot more. He does make some choices that leave you scratching your head, but we dont have a better option, and he is capable of playing well enought to beat teams. People have jumped off the Worley ship, after paddling like crazy after those first few games.

I understand what you're saying. I tend to agree that he tries too hard when the limited window of opportunity is open. If we could redo the INTs from UGA, UF, and OM!

 

[daj2576]

The point im making is that PLAYERS have a HUGE role in a coaches success. NFL coaches have hardly any input on the players they get(I think its reasonable to say thats why Saban and Spurrier didnt make it". In college, it is solely up to the coach to get HIS players. It is harder to win when you dont have your players. It is even harder to win when you dont have your players, and the players you do have are no good.Just like in the NFL, a college coach's success relies on the players he gets(not 100%, coaches have a role too). But it doesn't matter how good a coach is, if his team is significantly less talented, he wont win.

Talent is numerically over 2.33 times more important than coaching. If Saban is the gold standard consider this: he has a history of winning less games than he should relative to his talent. At Bama he has consistently out recruited all of CFB and is still good for at least a loss a year. He has always been that way.

If UT doesn't schedule Oregon and Oklahoma UT goes bowling last year and likely looks even more improved this year. Scheduling is not favorable to Jones' perception. It isn't like we don't already play enough ranked teams without top 5 out of conference teams while we are trying to rebuild.

 

[Smokie_is_my_dude]

I understand what you're saying. I tend to agree that he tries too hard when the limited window of opportunity is open. If we could redo the INTs from UGA, UF, and OM!

Whew, talk about a different record! We would have less people standing on the ledge also lol. :rock:

 

[LA Vol]

Worley seems a lot like Jonathan Crompton-- a serviceable skill set that goes south quickly when his confidence erodes and can be elevated with the right coaching. If he could get his head right and release the ball quicker, he could make some plays and boost his confidence. Unfortunately, the O feeds off Worley, and when he collapses, so goes the offense. It was like a different team played UGA and Ole Miss, because Worley played like a different QB.

 

[chargervol]

Just wish many posted opinions as opinions, Instead of
facts.

 

[sjt18]

The point im making is that PLAYERS have a HUGE role in a coaches success.

That is obviously true.... but coaches have a huge role in player success as well. What's the difference between Saban and Mack Brown? Talent? No. One is a great coach with great talent. The other is a mediocre coach with great talent. Same with Chizk vs Malzahn.... Meyer vs Zook... Franklin vs a long line of chumps that came before him AND it appears Mason.

Coaching puts Baylor, TCU, K-State, and Oregon on the national stage. Yes they have talent but coaching pushes that talent up another notch.

UT MUST find a coach that does that... that gets consistently MORE out of his roster than the supposed sum of its talent. Spurrier has done that. Muschamp has done the opposite.

NFL coaches have hardly any input on the players they get(I think its reasonable to say thats why Saban and Spurrier didnt make it".

That isn't true. They do not get the final say but they have lots of input with the GM.

In college, it is solely up to the coach to get HIS players. It is harder to win when you dont have your players.

Is it? Jones' past success is often brought up in these discussions. When has he won with his own players? In two stops he was gone before his first signing class graduated. He won with someone else's players. Meyer has pretty much made a career of winning with someone else's players... and has declined the more he was dependent on the ones he signed. Sumlin won with someone else's players. He didn't even sign Manziel.

At the very worst, it is mixed results.

It is even harder to win when you dont have your players, and the players you do have are no good.

So you are officially throwing the players under the bus to defend Jones and staff?

I will admit that the players do not possess great talent. It is far from an ideal group regardless of who the coaches are. Will you admit that coaching is part of the level of failure we are seeing? This is NOT the least talented group of OL's in college football. Lack of talent does NOT explain them getting dominated by Chattanooga.

Just like in the NFL, a college coach's success relies on the players he gets(not 100%, coaches have a role too). But it doesn't matter how good a coach is, if his team is significantly less talented, he wont win.

A great coach makes bad talent look mediocre, mediocre talent look good, good talent look great, and great talent look invincible. We're NOT seeing great coaching right now. Maybe they'll turn it around.... but they are on the clock.

 

[ksgovols]

Wow. Boys. It's not X's and O's. It's Jimmies and Joes.

I love seeing things come full circle. We started this ourselves by wanting some of that spread offense everybody's been talking about. Now I'm seeing posts about getting us a fullback and pounding that rock. Geez O' Pete! Before that it was why don't we ever throw to the tight end?

It's going to get better. Add a star to each one of those recruits for every year of college experience they get. That's what we're up against. Alabama has 8,9 and 10 star players playing against our 4 and 5 stars one and 2 years out of high school. We're a couple years away.

 

[volbeast33]

He did... and would have been fired if things had not turned around that last year. OTOH, he didn't take over a strong program there but still didn't post a losing record there. He cut his teeth on MSU then no one can deny his success at LSU and Bama. The SEC... isn't where you learn how to coach. There is no OJT for a HC in the SEC. It is where upper tier coaches survive and elite coaches win championships. Anything below that... doesn't cut it.

That's true and I have looked at his schedules back then....Butch would have made a bowl game every ur two...we have the toughest conference in the nation....played a top ten out of conference team both seasons and have had a top 5 SOS.

 

[volbeast33]

And have sucked with the group at Tennessee in 2013 and 2014, I don't give a damn what they did 4 years ago at another school with 1 guy.

Of course not bc all u care about is wins and losses. I do too but am smart enough to look at the situation as a whole. The way Butch is recruiting and representing Tenn, I'm willing to give him a full four yrs to actually be able to win or lose with his own guys and not what Dooley left him. I'm not 100% confident in the staff but will patiently what it out to see what he can get done. It's his job on the line, not ours.

 

[UT_Dutchman]

I personally think that pound for pound our O Line has more talent than Duke's O Line, given the caliber of recruits and this excellent coaching staff.

Yet, Duke leads the nation in least sacks given up. Only 4.

Let's do whatever Duke is doing.

Sacks Allowed | FBS Football Statistics - NCAA.com

You mean play an acc schedule, that would probably fix it. The only problem is we would be in the acc, so screw that.

 

[Fijivol72]

I personally think that pound for pound our O Line has more talent than Duke's O Line, given the caliber of recruits and this excellent coaching staff.

Yet, Duke leads the nation in least sacks given up. Only 4.

Let's do whatever Duke is doing.

Sacks Allowed | FBS Football Statistics - NCAA.com

What's that, move to the ACC and play Wake, Va, NC State, UNC, those juggernauts. Do me a favor and look at Dukes schedule.

 

[IndianapolisVol]

You mean play an acc schedule, that would probably fix it. The only problem is we would be in the acc, so screw that.

The talent level between our line and their line is more severe than the talent level between the ACC and SEC.

It's the coaching. Cut knows how to turn average lines into winners and Bajakian doesn't know how to develop good prospects into serviceable linemen. Say what you want about their age, the talent gap between our guys and Duke's should make up for it.

 

[jkleno]

I can say for certain that CBJ will leave our program in better shape than what he inherited. Hopefully, wins will come in 2015 & I can't see him not being the coach in 2016. If by the end of 2016 we are a .500 team, then a change would be warranted and whoever were to take over will be very successful because CBJ went all in on getting talent. I think CBJ will be here for quite a while (a la Dan Mullen @ MSU).

 

[Smokie_is_my_dude]

That is obviously true.... but coaches have a huge role in player success as well. What's the difference between Saban and Mack Brown? Talent? No. One is a great coach with great talent. The other is a mediocre coach with great talent. Same with Chizk vs Malzahn.... Meyer vs Zook... Franklin vs a long line of chumps that came before him AND it appears Mason.

Coaching puts Baylor, TCU, K-State, and Oregon on the national stage. Yes they have talent but coaching pushes that talent up another notch.

UT MUST find a coach that does that... that gets consistently MORE out of his roster than the supposed sum of its talent. Spurrier has done that. Muschamp has done the opposite.

That isn't true. They do not get the final say but they have lots of input with the GM.

Is it? Jones' past success is often brought up in these discussions. When has he won with his own players? In two stops he was gone before his first signing class graduated. He won with someone else's players. Meyer has pretty much made a career of winning with someone else's players... and has declined the more he was dependent on the ones he signed. Sumlin won with someone else's players. He didn't even sign Manziel.

At the very worst, it is mixed results.

So you are officially throwing the players under the bus to defend Jones and staff?

I will admit that the players do not possess great talent. It is far from an ideal group regardless of who the coaches are. Will you admit that coaching is part of the level of failure we are seeing? This is NOT the least talented group of OL's in college football. Lack of talent does NOT explain them getting dominated by Chattanooga.

A great coach makes bad talent look mediocre, mediocre talent look good, good talent look great, and great talent look invincible. We're NOT seeing great coaching right now. Maybe they'll turn it around.... but they are on the clock.

Throwing players under the bus? No. We have some players that just aren't good. Most of them on the O-Line. If we had better players, we wouldnt be starting/playing so many freshman.

NFL Coaches can say they want a player, but that doesnt mean squat to a GM. He is not going to put his job on the line to appease a coach. GM's are going to get the guys THEY want and believe will win.

As for those teams you listed with good coaching and decent talent, they dont play in our conference. Their road isnt as hard. But you are right that good coaching can make talent better. so if you have middle teir talent at some positions, you can raise it. If you have bottom of the barrel talent at some position, you dont get much.

Coaches play a huge roll in winning. But you cant take a Ford Focus to the indy 500, slap some stickers on it and win the thing. Every loss we have, the team has more talent. Significantly more. Florida only sucks because they are a mess. Everyone there is on a different page, like we were with Dooley. The only teams we have left where we have = or more talent is Kentucky and Vandy. Those 2 games will tell you where we are as a coaching staff. Vandy is a win. Kentucky is up in the air. I could see us losing to KY. I hope not, but they are playing really well. They have decent talent with decent depth. Our talent is spotty, and have little to no depth.

I rambled on there, but it comes down to this. We dont have alot of talent(that arent freshman). We dont have alot of depth(period). Being as bad on O-line as we are kills your offensive potential. It wont get better overnight. those people predicting 9 wins next year will be upset. These Olinemen arent going to wake up next september and be all SEC. These things take time, and if we keep being impatient and running off coaches before they have had a chance to REALLY prove themselves, then we will be destined to stay right where we are. (not saying you are wanting to run them off, but alot of people are starting to hint at it)

 

[sjt18]

Talent is numerically over 2.33 times more important than coaching. If Saban is the gold standard consider this: he has a history of winning less games than he should relative to his talent. At Bama he has consistently out recruited all of CFB and is still good for at least a loss a year. He has always been that way.

If UT doesn't schedule Oregon and Oklahoma UT goes bowling last year and likely looks even more improved this year. Scheduling is not favorable to Jones' perception. It isn't like we don't already play enough ranked teams without top 5 out of conference teams while we are trying to rebuild.

So far according to YOUR talent analysis... Jones is par or one under for his tenure, right? I believe you said that your numbers predicted 8 games with a 70% chance of victory, right? Ole Miss just about had to be one of those games... it was ugly.

So to hit "par" according to your numbers, Jones has to win out.

The best players go to coaches who have proven they can win... I'm not exactly sure how that surprises anyone or serves as a good defense for a coach who is losing winnable games.

 

[BearBryant]

It makes me laugh to see how many people get upset about another poster's viewpoints on here.

The purpose of a forum is to share one's opinion with a vast collection of other (anonymous) individuals. Yet, each time someone does, an individual with a differing opinion calls them a "negavol" "coach" or something else.

My opinion is that Coach Bajakian has regressed in year two, and aside from a weak offensive line, has more playmakers across the board.

Statistically speaking, this offense is one of the top 3 worst offenses in school history. Yet, we have playmakers like North who aren't getting the ball enough for whatever reason.

Dooley sucked, but aside from early 2010, his offenses put Bajakian's to shame. Maybe it was Cheney, I don't know.

Bajakian needs to make a serious change, just my OPINION.

Maybe it was a veteran offensive line, with experienced playmakers!!! Look at this group, how many in the NFL?