Substitution Problems: A Rational Discussion

#1
UTVolinExile

UTVolinExile

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#1
Our problems this season having the wrong number of men on the field have been well-documented. Many pixels have been spilled placing blame for the problem. So whose responsibility is it, really? If any VN members with coaching experience could weigh in on this, it would be much appreciated. IMO, there's been too much uninformed screaming on this particular issue, but it IS a recurring problem with our team. Who is in charge of putting our guys on the field and making sure that we have 11? Players, coaches, or some combination?
 
#2
#2
See, I don't even understand how substitutions work exactly. Who decides when and why? Whose job is it to make sure they get out there or come back?
 
#3
#3
On a team with a lot of leadership and experience it's probably usually on the players, but since we're so inexperienced and young added with the fact that this has happened five straight games, there should be a coach on top of this by now.

I counted it happen three different times last night and we had to take timeouts for two of them.
 
#4
#4
Honestly, I think it has a while lot to do with our consistant subbing. Most players on this team have never seen our played in a scheme that subsitute as much as we do.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#5
#5
Simple answer : D. Dooley. Those who argue anything different are kidding themselves. All the good and bad goes his way.
 
#6
#6
UTVolinExile said:
Our problems this season having the wrong number of men on the field have been well-documented. Many pixels have been spilled placing blame for the problem. So whose responsibility is it, really? If any VN members with coaching experience could weigh in on this, it would be much appreciated. IMO, there's been too much uninformed screaming on this particular issue, but it IS a recurring problem with our team. Who is in charge of putting our guys on the field and making sure that we have 11? Players, coaches, or some combination?
Click to expand...

This is SEC football not pee wee football it is not the coaches who should be telling each player to be in the game. It seems to be an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed though. I am not inside practices but for the most part it is the players to know what package they are in and be ready to put your helmet on. If it continues on which it has we need a walk on or clip board holder to make sure the right subs go in the game. The game calls on defense have been slow to be called so I don't know what is the problem. GBO
 
#7
#7
Ok. Ill go.

I have coached baseball and football. Albeit it was only pee wee and little league level.

In football I can tell you that we would practice 1st, 2nd, and 3rd teams if necessary. On the Friday before our game (we played on Saturday), we would go over teams exclusively for an hour.

Gameday would arrive and it never failed someone would get hurt or need a breather. When this happened we would either yell at a player and inform him that he needed to go in.or simply say I need the 2nd team so and so.

Wanna guess how many times we would be wrong on numbers? Probably 25% of the time. We put in the work and went into detail and everything. Somehow itd still get screwed up occasionally.

Like I said, that was 11 and 12 year olds. College is definitely different. But I personally would say the players are more at fault than coaches. Although somehow its on them to make sure it doesn't happen.
 
#8
#8
OK, so let's take a hypothetical. Opposing team is kicking a field goal. One of our coaches decides to have the standard FG blocking set in the game, so he calls for that set to go in. At that point, if you are a player, and you know you are in that set, it's your responsibility to go in. So it sounds like the coaches have a responsibility to determine the set for a given play, and call it, and then the responsibility shifts to the players in that set to get on the field and line up. About right?
 
#9
#9
UTVolinExile said:
OK, so let's take a hypothetical. Opposing team is kicking a field goal. One of our coaches decides to have the standard FG blocking set in the game, so he calls for that set to go in. At that point, if you are a player, and you know you are in that set, it's your responsibility to go in. So it sounds like the coaches have a responsibility to determine the set for a given play, and call it, and then the responsibility shifts to the players in that set to get on the field and line up. About right?
Click to expand...

well that is what makes me believe it is the players and not the coaches. The pedigree of our coaching staff can't be that stupid to make the same mistakes game after game. The field goal sets are simple and offense plays but the defense has to do with subbing players on different sets like we can't cover without subbing half our defense. It is ridiculous i will call in vol calls to get a DD answer. :thumbsup::birgits_giggle:
 
#10
#10
DD how are you substituting players? I can count to eleven I will hang up and listen!:)
 
#11
#11
Duo said:
See, I don't even understand how substitutions work exactly. Who decides when and why? Whose job is it to make sure they get out there or come back?
Click to expand...

At OHIO, there is always one coach who goes up and down the sideline saying "Punt team on deck", etc. Then the players get up and get ready.

And sometimes a coach will yell for specific players to get ready to go in.
 
#12
#12
StevenHarvey11 pretty much nailed it. I've been an assistant coach at the NCAA level. You group players into packages and call them out depending on the play call. Think Jon Stewart's cameo in Half Baked... "Red team go! Red team go!" The individual player should know the playbook, and if he's on "red team" or not.

Now, having said that, when you have the ongoing issue that our Vols have had, you put a position coach specifically on it. Or at the very least, a grad assistant. This is why time outs were called. It's not like Coach Dooley is counting individuals off as they enter the field of play, as many on this board think he should. That's just simply not how it works. It's mostly a player issue, but the coaches do have to correct it.
 
#13
#13
We ran a symmetrical base offense, so there were one QB and one FB, two slotbacks, and two receivers. That would be one personnel group. For another group, it would usually be something as basic as a tight end going in for a receiver, so we'd have a wing look to one side. Another group would have two tight ends and no receivers, and so on. Before games, it was the same drill. "Blue group, hands up." Someone would count them. "First subs for blue, hands up". And so on, with red, white, black, and however many offensive groups that we had. Then we'd get the various special teams groups, and so on. Not once did we ever get through that basic setup without there being, "Hold on, how the hell do we have 10 guys for this group?"

During a game, it's not always quite so organized. If a player who's on multiple groups gets injured, his backup might not be aware of all of the roles he's expected to fill. A guy might make a quick sub himself; I remember we played three plays with 10 guys one time because of this situation: the opponent liked to make quick offensive personnel changes, so we were ready with quick defensive changes. We made one of them, and coming off with the guys being subbed out was someone who wasn't supposed to be subbed out. He'd gotten a finger smashed between two helmets and needed a replacement, but he was mixed in well enough that no one picked up on it. And since the offense was in hurry-up mode, the defenders themselves weren't aware of the big gap.

For special teams, there's usually someone on third down yelling at whatever pending special team group to get ready. If there's a long third down, then someone's usually yelling for the punt team to get ready. If there's a chance for a field goal, the FG team is told to get ready. And so on.

During a game situation, whoever is in charge of substitutions is usually carrying on a running dialog with someone in the booth. If he yells out "Black group, get out there", then it's expected that the black group goes out. If someone isn't paying attention, it's on that player. And notice that most of the time, it's a player who's sitting on the bench taking a nice long chug off a water bottle with his helmet sitting about 10' away. The only major sideline rule we ever had was "Be ready to go out there immediately", so we always were off the bench with helmets on.

Frankly, substitution issues are something that's a foreign concept to me, but it's not difficult to see how there can be such issues.
 
#15
#15
justingroves said:
It's the job of the coaches to make sure the players know what is going on.
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I've said before that there's a point where coaching stops and execution takes over. I started saying this after a parent yelled at me after a close loss, but it was his kid who decided to field a punt over his shoulder (which was NEVER taught, and which was specifically mentioned previously as "something to never do").
 
#17
#17
Based on the above posts, it seems to me that a problem with not enough/too many players on the field ultimately goes down to the players executing. If a coach has called a particular package, those players have to get on the field. It is up to the coaches to clearly communicate which package is on the field. It seems common sense to me that if you don't have enough players on the field that would seem to be more on the players not listening/hustling to the called package.
 
#18
#18
I'll say this again, whether the actual problem is the players or the coaches is moot because at THIS point is most definitely the coaches' problem. If you are a manager and you have an employee or employees that screw up and continue to make the same mistake, about the 2nd or 3rd time it becomes your fault because you're still letting it happen. 4 games later is now a coaching problem.
 
#19
#19
Ohio Vol said:
I've said before that there's a point where coaching stops and execution takes over. I started saying this after a parent yelled at me after a close loss, but it was his kid who decided to field a punt over his shoulder (which was NEVER taught, and which was specifically mentioned previously as "something to never do").
Click to expand...

I agree that there is.

But...

Did you trot the kid that tried the over the shoulder catch out again and again and again and again after the screw-up?

If so, did he continue to muff punts?

I'm asking you if you corrected the problem or removed the guy causing the problem.
 
#20
#20
UTVolinExile said:
Our problems this season having the wrong number of men on the field have been well-documented. Many pixels have been spilled placing blame for the problem. So whose responsibility is it, really? If any VN members with coaching experience could weigh in on this, it would be much appreciated. IMO, there's been too much uninformed screaming on this particular issue, but it IS a recurring problem with our team. Who is in charge of putting our guys on the field and making sure that we have 11? Players, coaches, or some combination?
Click to expand...

Too much is being made of this.

I saw it happen at least 4 times in yesterday's NFL games. It happens and happens more often than most people realize.

Packages and STs players all know where they are to go. What the back ups do not often know, is that the guy in front of him is hurt and sometimes miss the signals for the packages to be used. It happens.
 
#21
#21
My simple solution would be to remove the benches from the sideline and enforce an helmet's on rule for the entire game. . .
 
#22
#22
It's the coaches job to know who's subbing in an out and to make sure we've got the correct number of players on the field. Somehow, this has turned in to rocket science.
 
#23
#23
UTVolinExile said:
Our problems this season having the wrong number of men on the field have been well-documented. Many pixels have been spilled placing blame for the problem. So whose responsibility is it, really? If any VN members with coaching experience could weigh in on this, it would be much appreciated. IMO, there's been too much uninformed screaming on this particular issue, but it IS a recurring problem with our team. Who is in charge of putting our guys on the field and making sure that we have 11? Players, coaches, or some combination?
Click to expand...
Everywhere that I have coached, the position coach/coordinators were responsible for subbing. We tried letting the players take care of it once........ONCE. We didn't like the results or the butt chewing we got from the head man (who was REALLY good at that), so we took it upon ourselves to make sure subs were taken care of. It's really not rocket science...
 
#24
#24
UTVolinExile said:
OK, so let's take a hypothetical. Opposing team is kicking a field goal. One of our coaches decides to have the standard FG blocking set in the game, so he calls for that set to go in. At that point, if you are a player, and you know you are in that set, it's your responsibility to go in. So it sounds like the coaches have a responsibility to determine the set for a given play, and call it, and then the responsibility shifts to the players in that set to get on the field and line up. About right?
Click to expand...

I'll agree to a point. When it becomes OBVIOUS that the players aren't getting it done correctly, a coach SHOULD make sure it gets done. It's been many instances in several games. As stated earlier, It took me one really good butt chewing to take matters in my own hands and see that it was done correctly. How many times does it have to happen before it's taken care of? There has been sooo much talk about inexperience, it would make sense to me to be even more diligent as a coach knowing the experience level of our team.
 
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