Stubborn Factor

[Roustabout]

Are we seriously suggesting that coaches are willingly neutering the team because of stubborness?

the return by EB was exciting. However, we are witnessing one return. We do not see what occurs in practice which gives a coach confidence in a player or causes trepidation.

Freshman play on this team. Is that stubborness? After all, We aren't playing the most experienced players in certain positions. C'mon man.

Nope. Just simply stating that coaches don't always make the right personnel decisions. I think this O line is better with Sanders, Weisman and Kendrick playing as well as having Kerbyson on the right side.

 

[volroadwarrior]

All of us know better than the coaching staff. Everything is much clearer after the fact. Small sample sizes are much better than big ones. Ball security is of less importance than a 60 yard return. Evaluating O linemen is better with info from Hyams and VN than watching practice every week. FAHR BUTCH!!!!!!

 

[BigTCountry]

Coaches are stubborn people. Sometimes that can be a good thing. Imagine if a coach had a knee jerk reaction every time a player made a mistake, or fired a coordinator any time there was public pressure. It would be chaos. But that same stubbornness can at times be a detriment. I would say a big contributor to Fulmer's ultimate downfall was his stubborn refusal to let certain coaches go and make certain changes to his program. Remember Pat Washington?

After reading some recent venting by the Father of one of our back up lineman, this got me thinking. Everyone is raving about the 60 yard return by Evan Berry in the UF game. But guess what, it never would have happened barring injury. CBJ proclaimed that DY was the kick returner, end of story. Despite the fact that anyone can see he lacks big play ability and consistently goes down with little to no contact. I'd say that's text book stubbornness. Listen, Berry wasn't returning kicks in the UF game UNLESS an injury happened to DY. It wasn't some brilliant coaching substitution or CBJ realizing, "this needs to happen."

I'm not saying the fans know more than CBJ, they don't. But what was so evident to UT fans at the end of Fulmer's tenure seemed to complete escape the attention of the man right in the middle of the situation. The result was a legend being fired and a divided fan base. If a National Champion coach can lose sight, and through stubbornness kill his program, don't think it can't happen to CBJ or any other coach.

The O-line is struggling, duh. And yet, from our perspective, there is NO competition. CBJ made a statement after the Arky State game that, "This is the line we are going with from this point forward." This was before Thomas had ever even played a game at RT. Even if that is your opinion, why box yourself into a corner? We've seen nothing to convince us that this five is worthy of having no shake ups. I'm sorry but placing two true freshman on one side of your line is coaching suicide. And the coach's answer to why, seems to be, "because I said so."

Coleman Thomas was moved to RT and made starter in the spring as if angels appeared anointing him the next great thing. Seriously, why would a staff do such a thing? There wasn't any real competition. CT got the first team reps, until suddenly, in the Fall, he didn't. And we've seen nothing in his play to confirm why this staff made such a move in the Spring.

I know I'll catch a bunch of flak on this one, but go back and watch the replay of Berry's return and then understand that if CBJ had had his way, it never would have happened. Stubborn.

Good Points but let us not forget.

1. His name is Evan Berry he was a fan favorite before the return therefore it gives this arguement life.

2. vs Chattanooga, I really like what I saw but every thing we see vs a team way below UTs level of play needs to be taken with a grain of salt. any players performance Saturday should have looked better than usual, especially skilled.

3. Coaches see these players in practice, and he know who wins the battles, why try to act like your there and you see the battles everyday.

4. CBJ looks at the process and development of every player, for any coach with new players theres going to be moments when an individual steps out and gets a chance to perform when it REALLY matters, and forces a coach to turn his head. Just because this happens, why it is the fans responsibility to point fingers and say you should have made that decision to put him in earlier shame on you. No, he's our commander and chief and he makes the decisions, you dont just throw fresh meat to the special ops missions, they have to earn it. accept that we shouldnt and dont make the calls.

5. O-Line
How many more options do we have. Do you really believe in your mind that we have a hidden superstar of an O lineman that CBJ is intentionally not playing. He will make the decisions to make winning possible. If you don't like his decisions go start a fire butch web site.

 

[sjt18]

All of us know better than the coaching staff. Everything is much clearer after the fact. Small sample sizes are much better than big ones. Ball security is of less importance than a 60 yard return. Evaluating O linemen is better with info from Hyams and VN than watching practice every week. FAHR BUTCH!!!!!!

No. It would be allllllll better if we all just did like you, stuck our heads in the sand, and pretended the OL wasn't a huge issue that the coaches to date have failed to effectively resolve.

I would challenge you to go back and watch what you can find of Kendrick's play when he came in for Kerbyson. He would probably make some mistakes. But he was noticeably quicker than Kerbyson. The coaches have made a choice. So far they have chosen the guys who "know" their assignments but who are struggling badly to perform them over others who potentially could perform them better but might have more mental errors.

It is a coach's CHOICE... and it has consequences that ARE up for evaluation and criticism.

Honest question- If you have a job or have had a job... do you also say that managers should NEVER be questioned by employees? I mean for all you know the mgr might have a grand plan that will work just fine in a year or two when the right people are in place and trained, right?

 

[sjt18]

Nope. Just simply stating that coaches don't always make the right personnel decisions. I think this O line is better with Sanders, Weisman and Kendrick playing as well as having Kerbyson on the right side.

I respect the fact that Jones (and I believe it WAS Jones) stopped the musical chairs. They were trying different combinations every day if not multiple combinations each day. It is hard to find continuity like that.

I think they have reached a point though where putting Gilliam in if he's ready or making one change at a time with the guys you mentioned... I'd start with Kendrick to LT.

Jones kind of set that up in one of his answers about the OL and practice competition. He mentioned Kendrick as someone who was having a good week or something to that effect. He may have seen some things in the Chatt game that makes him think that Kendrick might get it done when the lights come on.

 

[BigTCountry]

You make some really, really good points but I think you missed the biggest "stubborn" thing he's doing right now. He's refusing to modify or adjust his offensive focus/concepts.

To be honest, I questioned what they were doing on D last year by stubbornly sticking with some things when they weren't working... and it is now paying dividends.

But right now they seem to be stubbornly saying "this is our O and we're running it regardless".... when they actually CAN'T run some of it.

I'm not talking about the major adjustments that some are. I'm just talking about refocusing their O on elements that the O does well... like the dread "dink and dunk".

We've been back forth some,and before the season began I debated with you about limiting everyones expectations because of our O-line (e.g. automatic win vs Missouri that you said we should get). We are one-dimensional on offense because of the simple fact that our line cannot block for runs or throws that takes longer than 1.75 seconds to develop. Does that mean they will never perform correctly on a play that they have previously failed on, no, and that gives false hope to fans and they start thinking we should do that more often.

Also, dink and dunk is great for us, we agree completely on that, but we cant do it the whole game. Honestly its the only thing that works, but it we turn soley to the things that work we will be the most limited offense in America.

The ONLY time any thing else is successful is when the defense calls a different coverage and doesnt clitz everyone

 

[lovavol]

I'd love to forget this O-line.

they play for UT. how about some support rather than a douche? jump off the wagon now, but don't come back. negative bashing can be seen by potential recruits. cya

 

[McDad]

Nope. Just simply stating that coaches don't always make the right personnel decisions. I think this O line is better with Sanders, Weisman and Kendrick playing as well as having Kerbyson on the right side.

And you've attended how many practices and team meetings?

formulating conclusions in the absence facts is easy.

 

[BeecherVol]

Thank you.

I can not believe the reaction that some people are having to this. It was UTC people.

Not saying he can't do it against SEC teams, but the same people with high expectations after that one return will be the ones *****ing when he doesn't house one against Ole Miss.

Valid point.

I made the same about UTCs DL. Hard to see sometimes.

 

[D-rock]

Nevertheless, it's nice to see we have a dynamic returner. It's been a LONG time. Let's hope that wasn't a fluke.

I think we had a good one not that long ago...CP.
Drops microphone and walks off stage.

 

[three6]

Lol this is hilarious, I can see the coaches picking out the two deep now
"Alright we'll start freshmen at defensive end, cornerback, and widereciever.... but we better put a second rate guy in there at kick returner, that's where I draw the line fellas"

I worry about some of y'all sometimes.

 

[FlyFishnVol]

Coaches are stubborn people. Sometimes that can be a good thing. Imagine if a coach had a knee jerk reaction every time a player made a mistake, or fired a coordinator any time there was public pressure. It would be chaos. But that same stubbornness can at times be a detriment. I would say a big contributor to Fulmer's ultimate downfall was his stubborn refusal to let certain coaches go and make certain changes to his program. Remember Pat Washington?

After reading some recent venting by the Father of one of our back up lineman, this got me thinking. Everyone is raving about the 60 yard return by Evan Berry in the UF game. But guess what, it never would have happened barring injury. CBJ proclaimed that DY was the kick returner, end of story. Despite the fact that anyone can see he lacks big play ability and consistently goes down with little to no contact. I'd say that's text book stubbornness. Listen, Berry wasn't returning kicks in the UF game UNLESS an injury happened to DY. It wasn't some brilliant coaching substitution or CBJ realizing, "this needs to happen."

I'm not saying the fans know more than CBJ, they don't. But what was so evident to UT fans at the end of Fulmer's tenure seemed to complete escape the attention of the man right in the middle of the situation. The result was a legend being fired and a divided fan base. If a National Champion coach can lose sight, and through stubbornness kill his program, don't think it can't happen to CBJ or any other coach.

The O-line is struggling, duh. And yet, from our perspective, there is NO competition. CBJ made a statement after the Arky State game that, "This is the line we are going with from this point forward." This was before Thomas had ever even played a game at RT. Even if that is your opinion, why box yourself into a corner? We've seen nothing to convince us that this five is worthy of having no shake ups. I'm sorry but placing two true freshman on one side of your line is coaching suicide. And the coach's answer to why, seems to be, "because I said so."

Coleman Thomas was moved to RT and made starter in the spring as if angels appeared anointing him the next great thing. Seriously, why would a staff do such a thing? There wasn't any real competition. CT got the first team reps, until suddenly, in the Fall, he didn't. And we've seen nothing in his play to confirm why this staff made such a move in the Spring.

I know I'll catch a bunch of flak on this one, but go back and watch the replay of Berry's return and then understand that if CBJ had had his way, it never would have happened. Stubborn.

I think your assesment is narrow and shallow, First, I would want to see your resume that provides supporting evidence that your assessment of player development and football accumen is supported by years of experience and maturity, that allows this bunch of well thought out BLAH BLAH BLAH, give you the right to continue to bring down this team. These kids need our support not a constant barrage of sarcasm and uninformed comments from someone who probably never played at a Div I level. I think CBJ is doing what is BEST for UT football, and he is more painfully aware of the challenges than you my friend.

GBO!!

 

[nash101]

One of the best examples of an injury forcing the coach's hand was when Majors was coach against Notre Dame - our starting RB was injured in the opening kick off and he had to insert Hubert Simpson who had a career day in yardage and TDs

On the other hand coach Jones made the switch last year with Peterman for the Florida game and that flopped

 

[FlyFishnVol]

No. It would be allllllll better if we all just did like you, stuck our heads in the sand, and pretended the OL wasn't a huge issue that the coaches to date have failed to effectively resolve.

I would challenge you to go back and watch what you can find of Kendrick's play when he came in for Kerbyson. He would probably make some mistakes. But he was noticeably quicker than Kerbyson. The coaches have made a choice. So far they have chosen the guys who "know" their assignments but who are struggling badly to perform them over others who potentially could perform them better but might have more mental errors.

It is a coach's CHOICE... and it has consequences that ARE up for evaluation and criticism.

Honest question- If you have a job or have had a job... do you also say that managers should NEVER be questioned by employees? I mean for all you know the mgr might have a grand plan that will work just fine in a year or two when the right people are in place and trained, right?

I see now why after 24K post you only have 33% approval rating....so, you are a perfect example of "consider the source"

 

[BeecherVol]

I think your assesment is narrow and shallow, First, I would want to see your resume that provides supporting evidence that your assessment of player development and football accumen is supported by years of experience and maturity, that allows this bunch of well thought out BLAH BLAH BLAH, give you the right to continue to bring down this team. These kids need our support not a constant barrage of sarcasm and uninformed comments from someone who probably never played at a Div I level. I think CBJ is doing what is BEST for UT football, and he is more painfully aware of the challenges than you my friend.

GBO!!

So the program is going down?

 

[gret012]

Three years ago we were terrified of every punt because we weren't sure if it could even be caught. The most important part of kick and punt returns is to make sure our offense gets the ball. I think Devrin and Sutton have done a fine job at both kick and punt returns, respectively because they haven't given up the ball. I expect improvement and for them to make that a dangerous part of the game, but right now I'm glad we have confidence in our returners just to catch it.

The biggest problem with the offensive line right now is experence and physical maturity. Neither issue can be fixed by just making a swap on the line. If coach keeps swaping up the line trying to get chemistry right, each player has to learn a new position again. We need consistency in the offensive line right now so that they can learn their role in the offense.

 

[Vols4us]

Great post, OP. Nailed it. Stop the coach worship. They make mistakes and frequently lose their jobs - Majors, Fulmer, Dooley. Probably could count Kiffin had he stayed since he was a loose cannon. If they are too stubborn to adjust and take constructive criticism they should not be the HC of our Tennessee Vols. Everybody I know wants Butch to get it done. Good man and good coach. But he needs to grow, make changes and adapt to the SEC.

 

[Rudy123]

Coaches are stubborn people. Sometimes that can be a good thing. Imagine if a coach had a knee jerk reaction every time a player made a mistake, or fired a coordinator any time there was public pressure. It would be chaos. But that same stubbornness can at times be a detriment. I would say a big contributor to Fulmer's ultimate downfall was his stubborn refusal to let certain coaches go and make certain changes to his program. Remember Pat Washington?

After reading some recent venting by the Father of one of our back up lineman, this got me thinking. Everyone is raving about the 60 yard return by Evan Berry in the UF game. But guess what, it never would have happened barring injury. CBJ proclaimed that DY was the kick returner, end of story. Despite the fact that anyone can see he lacks big play ability and consistently goes down with little to no contact. I'd say that's text book stubbornness. Listen, Berry wasn't returning kicks in the UF game UNLESS an injury happened to DY. It wasn't some brilliant coaching substitution or CBJ realizing, "this needs to happen."

I'm not saying the fans know more than CBJ, they don't. But what was so evident to UT fans at the end of Fulmer's tenure seemed to complete escape the attention of the man right in the middle of the situation. The result was a legend being fired and a divided fan base. If a National Champion coach can lose sight, and through stubbornness kill his program, don't think it can't happen to CBJ or any other coach.

The O-line is struggling, duh. And yet, from our perspective, there is NO competition. CBJ made a statement after the Arky State game that, "This is the line we are going with from this point forward." This was before Thomas had ever even played a game at RT. Even if that is your opinion, why box yourself into a corner? We've seen nothing to convince us that this five is worthy of having no shake ups. I'm sorry but placing two true freshman on one side of your line is coaching suicide. And the coach's answer to why, seems to be, "because I said so."

Coleman Thomas was moved to RT and made starter in the spring as if angels appeared anointing him the next great thing. Seriously, why would a staff do such a thing? There wasn't any real competition. CT got the first team reps, until suddenly, in the Fall, he didn't. And we've seen nothing in his play to confirm why this staff made such a move in the Spring.

I know I'll catch a bunch of flak on this one, but go back and watch the replay of Berry's return and then understand that if CBJ had had his way, it never would have happened. Stubborn.

when Young was young and he first started returning, one of his returns was a good one and we were all excited. How do we know that this may the only good return that Berry makes too?

Do you trust in bUTch?

 

[FlyFishnVol]

So the program is going down?

I think you know what I was saying. It is easier to point out the negative and try to act superior through uninformed and ignorant rants.

Actually, I think the program is going up, but most posters want to whine or critcize (like you).

GBO!!!

 

[Vols4us]

I see now why after 24K post you only have 33% approval rating....so, you are a perfect example of "consider the source"

How about your catch versus cast ratio?

Attack the person if you don't like the message - right?

 

[McDad]

Great post, OP. Nailed it. Stop the coach worship. They make mistakes and frequently lose their jobs - Majors, Fulmer, Dooley. Probably could count Kiffin had he stayed since he was a loose cannon. If they are too stubborn to adjust and take constructive criticism they should not be the HC of our Tennessee Vols. Everybody I know wants Butch to get it done. Good man and good coach. But he needs to grow, make changes and adapt to the SEC.

What does, "adapt to the SEC mean"?

 

[sjt18]

We've been back forth some,and before the season began I debated with you about limiting everyones expectations because of our O-line (e.g. automatic win vs Missouri that you said we should get).

My expectations are still the same... and no matter how bad the OL seems right now... the teams they face after the next two weeks are nowhere near as talented on D as UGA, UF, Bama, OU, and Ole Miss.

Mizzou SHOULD BE a win. They are NOT a talented football team.

Also, dink and dunk is great for us, we agree completely on that, but we cant do it the whole game. Honestly its the only thing that works, but it we turn soley to the things that work we will be the most limited offense in America.

It won't work against everyone all the time... but Cut took UT to the CG with nothing more. Vandy pretty much beat UT with it last year and nothing more.

 

[Rudy123]

Coaches are stubborn people. Sometimes that can be a good thing. Imagine if a coach had a knee jerk reaction every time a player made a mistake, or fired a coordinator any time there was public pressure. It would be chaos. But that same stubbornness can at times be a detriment. I would say a big contributor to Fulmer's ultimate downfall was his stubborn refusal to let certain coaches go and make certain changes to his program. Remember Pat Washington?

After reading some recent venting by the Father of one of our back up lineman, this got me thinking. Everyone is raving about the 60 yard return by Evan Berry in the UF game. But guess what, it never would have happened barring injury. CBJ proclaimed that DY was the kick returner, end of story. Despite the fact that anyone can see he lacks big play ability and consistently goes down with little to no contact. I'd say that's text book stubbornness. Listen, Berry wasn't returning kicks in the UF game UNLESS an injury happened to DY. It wasn't some brilliant coaching substitution or CBJ realizing, "this needs to happen."

I'm not saying the fans know more than CBJ, they don't. But what was so evident to UT fans at the end of Fulmer's tenure seemed to complete escape the attention of the man right in the middle of the situation. The result was a legend being fired and a divided fan base. If a National Champion coach can lose sight, and through stubbornness kill his program, don't think it can't happen to CBJ or any other coach.

The O-line is struggling, duh. And yet, from our perspective, there is NO competition. CBJ made a statement after the Arky State game that, "This is the line we are going with from this point forward." This was before Thomas had ever even played a game at RT. Even if that is your opinion, why box yourself into a corner? We've seen nothing to convince us that this five is worthy of having no shake ups. I'm sorry but placing two true freshman on one side of your line is coaching suicide. And the coach's answer to why, seems to be, "because I said so."

Coleman Thomas was moved to RT and made starter in the spring as if angels appeared anointing him the next great thing. Seriously, why would a staff do such a thing? There wasn't any real competition. CT got the first team reps, until suddenly, in the Fall, he didn't. And we've seen nothing in his play to confirm why this staff made such a move in the Spring.

I know I'll catch a bunch of flak on this one, but go back and watch the replay of Berry's return and then understand that if CBJ had had his way, it never would have happened. Stubborn.

Wasn't Pat Washington coaching receivers when we had Nash, Stallworth & Price? I thought he did a good job.
However; I did notice that Pat Washington, larry Marimey & Larry Slade got lesser jobs once they left U.T. So, they weren't considered good hires by other programs either. Meaning, no one was knocking on our door to take them away from this program. So, they must not have been that good.

 

[CNeagleVolFan]

One simple point that's overlooked is that this great return was against Chattanooga... They also gave a big punt return up to Sutton, so think about the team this happened against.

 

[sjt18]

I see now why after 24K post you only have 33% approval rating....so, you are a perfect example of "consider the source"

I tell the truth as I see it.... that doesn't often make you the most popular guy. I just don't need my ego stroked like that... maybe some do.