Stability wins in the SEC

[05_never_again]

If I recall correctly, Patterson was making $1.6MM and wanted to get into the $2.5 range. Hamilton wasn't going to go over $2MM for a HC (that's why Kiffin was right at $2MM). I've had a big time TCU booster tell me to my face "I'm glad you all aren't serious about football since that saved me some money." He was laughing when he made the comment so I would take it with a grain of salt. TCU bumped Patterson up to $2.0-2.1MM the next season.

If that's true, Hamilton is just an idiot on so many different levels. He didn't want to go over $2m for Lane, or any head coach, but he paid Lane's dad $1.2m to be a coordinator.

I've had some folks tell me that Hamilton the entire time looked at Lane and Monte as a package deal. They wanted Monte just as badly as, if not even more, than Lane, and they weren't going to hire Lane if his dad didn't come. They were fixated on Monte's potential awesome defense more than anything they thought Lane could do. If you look at it as a package deal, they essentially paid $3.2m for a head coach, which is way in excess of Hamilton's supposed $2m limit, and also in excess of what Patterson wanted.

 

[05_never_again]

Not so sure we would have been able to land Patterson and not too sure he would have been successful enough. Granted he would have been better than other options we had, but no one has been able to pull him away from TCU. I think he's very comfortable there and would not be comfortable at a program where the pressure to win is much greater.

He's comfortable there now, but he absolutely was listening and probably would have come here in 2009.

You're right, there's no way of knowing how successful he would have been here, but I guarantee you he wouldn't have left after a year like Kiffin did.

 

[HonestVol24]

You could add LSU, they went through a huge cycle of coaches in the 80's and even the early 90's. And yes it has and does happen many times after losing a coach that has had success during his time there, LSU had hired a big time coach in the early 80's and he died in a plane crash and after that they went through a bad and unstable period with more than a few coaches. Bama after Stallings, Georgia after Dooley, Tennessee after Fulmer. And of course Auburn after Dye.

It happens to all of us. We just didn’t execute the after fulmer plan. If we ever had one.

 

[HonestVol24]

So we should have stuck with Butch....for stability?

If you don’t screw the stability to begin with you’re never in a position to hire a butch jones caliber coach. That’s the point you missed

 

[hog88]

If you don’t screw the stability to begin with you’re never in a position to hire a butch jones caliber coach. That’s the point you missed

So this should be a "we shouldn't have fired Fulmer" thread then.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

If that's true, Hamilton is just an idiot on so many different levels. He didn't want to go over $2m for Lane, or any head coach, but he paid Lane's dad $1.2m to be a coordinator.

I've had some folks tell me that Hamilton the entire time looked at Lane and Monte as a package deal. They wanted Monte just as badly as, if not even more, than Lane, and they weren't going to hire Lane if his dad didn't come. They were fixated on Monte's potential awesome defense more than anything they thought Lane could do. If you look at it as a package deal, they essentially paid $3.2m for a head coach, which is way in excess of Hamilton's supposed $2m limit, and also in excess of what Patterson wanted.

Hamilton and crew supposedly had concerns with Patterson's assistants (This is one reason why Justin Fuente has never been a candidate at UT - This is probably the basis for the "big time" comment). Given the overall economic landscape in 2008, Monte was always viewed as a short-term option while there would have been additional buy-outs that would have to be paid to TCU that really didn't exist with Kiffin's staff. I want to say that Lane Kiffin had pretty decent salary bumps in his contract in the later years of his original contract since Monte was viewed as short-term. Again, this is 10 years ago so I might be off there.

I think Patterson was always hoping to replace Mack Brown but by the time Mack left, TCU was in the Big 12 and by that time, TCU had a far superior team to Texas...

 

[HonestVol24]

So this should be a "we shouldn't have fired Fulmer" thread then.

Once again missed the point. You don’t fire a hall of fame coach that’s had a stable program for 15 years and not have a big time coach that’s already agreed to be the new coach. We didn’t have a real plan to move forward. We just got mad and fired Phil, killed our stable program and hoped for the best. The cycle doesn’t end until we give a real coach time to build it back. I hope Pruitt gets a fair shake and time. Because complaining about him having to play with other coaches players/bums isn’t fair to him.

 

[Fullfillmer]

We lost all stability when fulmer was fired. Throughout sec history when you lose or fire an iconic hall of fame caliber coach there’s most always a 4-6 year period where big time programs have bad/mediocre years before getting back, sometimes it takes even longer. It’s happened to Florida, bama multiple times, Auburn, Georgia etc. whether is was right or the wrong time to fire fulmer has been talked to death. You don’t fire big time coaches unless you have an ace up your sleeve to replace him and we had bad luck with our ace. Now we’re suffering the consequences. Alabama went through the same 10 year stretch prior to saban (although never this bad). Georgia is where they are because mark richt built a stable program. Our fan base would have ran him off long before Georgia did. Kirby didn’t do anything special. Just walked into a loaded roster and kept the ball rolling in recruiting. The 2 best teams in our league are where they are because of stability. Stability makes it possible to recruit at high levels and go to the next level. When Tennessee and Florida ran the sec for a decade or so it was because we were the most stable programs. Until our fan base and administration have patience, which at this point is hard, we’re going to continue to go through the same exact cycle. Firing coaches and wanting them fired year after year doesn’t fix programs, it sets it back even more. Fulmer was brought back to stabilize the program and excerize the patience needed to bring it back. That’s what he’s doing with Pruitt. It’s going to take a few years and multiple classes but I’ll ride with Phil any day of the week. Have patience. Stop being the fire coaches every year fan base. It just makes the process that much longer. We finally have a Tennessee guy running the program again, well be back.

Where to even begin. Philip is a good guy, but made two bad OC hires and it cost him. I really don't care if you are from Tennessee or China … you have to staff with high quality talented people. You can not compete in the SEC playing against Alabama and Georgia, etc. every year with mediocre recruiting and coaching. Recently we have been coaching against NFL caliber coordinators with people like Coach Scott. Nice guy, but his experience and qualification to perform that job was no where to be found. I think he may have been an OC one year in high school. What were we doing people?

When you replace someone of importance, you have to replace them with someone equal to or preferably better. Dooley and Jones, are not great at coaching or recruiting. They both managed to chase off or lose the best components of their staff and replaced them with less qualified guys.

Do you guys know that Bill Battle once hired his best grade school friend as the DC here and he had no - zip, nada, 0 experience. What could go wrong there ? We need stability, and you get there by making smart, great coaching hires.

Phillip Fulmer = Randy Sanders and the Clawfense ….. I like Coach Fulmer but he had a couple of losing seasons of his own which started our decline. Someone should have been groomed to take Cutcliff's spot when he left both times or they should have stepped up on the OC hire. When your agent is suggesting co-ordinators that are also clients of his ……. slippery slope.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Business world says fire fast hire slow

Not if you owe them a few million dollars when you fire them.

 

[Fullfillmer]

Once again missed the point. You don’t fire a hall of fame coach that’s had a stable program for 15 years and not have a big time coach that’s already agreed to be the new coach. We didn’t have a real plan to move forward. We just got mad and fired Phil, killed our stable program and hoped for the best. The cycle doesn’t end until we give a real coach time to build it back. I hope Pruitt gets a fair shake and time. Because complaining about him having to play with other coaches players/bums isn’t fair to him.

In hindsight, I think Phil might have successfully turned things around. He was having a great recruiting year ( we were ranked first or second as I recall ) and he was going to manage around the clawfence, but he shares equal blame for having losing seasons I think 2 of his last 4 seasons. I don't think many these days can survive that.

 

[hog88]

Once again missed the point. You don’t fire a hall of fame coach that’s had a stable program for 15 years and not have a big time coach that’s already agreed to be the new coach. We didn’t have a real plan to move forward. We just got mad and fired Phil, killed our stable program and hoped for the best. The cycle doesn’t end until we give a real coach time to build it back. I hope Pruitt gets a fair shake and time. Because complaining about him having to play with other coaches players/bums isn’t fair to him.

Our (more precisely Hamiltons) mistake was making the Dooley hire in a panic. He should have tagged Kippy the interim and took his time.

 

[HonestVol24]

Where to even begin. Philip is a good guy, but made two bad OC hires and it cost him. I really don't care if you are from Tennessee or China … you have to staff with high quality talented people. You can not compete in the SEC playing against Alabama and Georgia, etc. every year with mediocre recruiting and coaching. Recently we have been coaching against NFL caliber coordinators with people like Coach Scott. Nice guy, but his experience and qualification to perform that job was no where to be found. I think he may have been an OC one year in high school. What were we doing people?

When you replace someone of importance, you have to replace them with someone equal to or preferably better. Dooley and Jones, are not great at coaching or recruiting. They both managed to chase off or lose the best components of their staff and replaced them with less qualified guys.

Do you guys know that Bill Battle once hired his best grade school friend as the DC here and he had no - zip, nada, 0 experience. What could go wrong there ? We need stability, and you get there by making smart, great coaching hires.

Phillip Fulmer = Randy Sanders and the Clawfense ….. I like Coach Fulmer but he had a couple of losing seasons of his own which started our decline. Someone should have been groomed to take Cutcliff's spot when he left both times or they should have stepped up on the OC hire. When your agent is suggesting co-ordinators that are also clients of his ……. slippery slope.

Very true, and most people don’t realize outside of saban all the great coaches went through slumps and down years. If you coach long enough it happens.

 

[hog88]

In hindsight, I think Phil might have successfully turned things around. He was having a great recruiting year ( we were ranked first or second as I recall ) and he was going to manage around the clawfence, but he shares equal blame for having losing seasons I think 2 of his last 4 seasons. I don't think many these days can survive that.

It wasn't only the 2 losing seasons, it was his inability to win against top tier teams/coaches. His w/l record over his last 5-6 years against top 25 teams was abysmal.

 

[sjt18]

We lost all stability when fulmer was fired. Throughout sec history when you lose or fire an iconic hall of fame caliber coach there’s most always a 4-6 year period where big time programs have bad/mediocre years before getting back, sometimes it takes even longer. It’s happened to Florida, bama multiple times, Auburn, Georgia etc. whether is was right or the wrong time to fire fulmer has been talked to death. You don’t fire big time coaches unless you have an ace up your sleeve to replace him and we had bad luck with our ace.

The "aces" knew the mess they'd have been walking into.

Fulmer had become complacent while the game passed him by. Much of what happened immediately after he left was a DIRECT product of his recruiting. The OL talent stank. The DT talent was non-existent. Guys who would have been career back ups in his earlier teams were playing key roles. Fulmer brought UT some great years... but he's also the one who started this whole downward spiral. I'm NOT blaming him for the mistakes that have kept UT down... but he drove the car into the ditch to start the process.

Now we’re suffering the consequences. Alabama went through the same 10 year stretch prior to saban (although never this bad).

Try more like 25 years. And they never let any of those coaches run the talent as low as it was when Fulmer was finally dealt with.

Georgia is where they are because mark richt built a stable program. Our fan base would have ran him off long before Georgia did.

What? Richt had some great early years followed by "stable" mediocrity. They should have fired him before then did... and his successor would have had at least as much talent. There isn't a good comparison between UT and UGA. UGA has a solid base of homer talent that will go to UGA regardless. They're never in as much danger of having their talent go to pot.

Kirby didn’t do anything special. Just walked into a loaded roster and kept the ball rolling in recruiting.

Yeah. He upped the recruiting and put a lot of those guys on the field. He had a better starting point than Pruitt but has done something pretty special.

The 2 best teams in our league are where they are because of stability. Stability makes it possible to recruit at high levels and go to the next level.

Nope. The best two teams in the SEC are where they are because at different times they chose to reject mediocre stability. If Richt is still at UGA... they're still playing second fiddle or worse. If Shula was still at Bama... they'd probably be looking up from the bottom of the West.

When Tennessee and Florida ran the sec for a decade or so it was because we were the most stable programs. Until our fan base and administration have patience, which at this point is hard, we’re going to continue to go through the same exact cycle. Firing coaches and wanting them fired year after year doesn’t fix programs, it sets it back even more. Fulmer was brought back to stabilize the program and excerize the patience needed to bring it back. That’s what he’s doing with Pruitt. It’s going to take a few years and multiple classes but I’ll ride with Phil any day of the week. Have patience. Stop being the fire coaches every year fan base. It just makes the process that much longer. We finally have a Tennessee guy running the program again, well be back.

Stable mediocrity loses just as quickly as instability. UF and UT were stable because they were winning- not winning because they were stable. Winning has all sorts of advantages.

Pruitt should get 3 years to make a positive impact. I like him. I really do. But I've watched the pattern repeat itself over and over. With VERY rare exception, programs that keep coaches that haven't done something "special" within their first 3 years... watch their recruiting fall off and ultimately performance on the field. Even in our own recent experience we saw Jones' inability to coach turn 11 win teams into 9 win teams... we saw recruiting momentum lose steam... then we saw him fail.

Keeping a coach who isn't showing real signs of producing a championship program within 4 years... is a formula for going right back to where UT was in 2008... and that's before you consider UT's recruiting disadvantages.

 

[HonestVol24]

Our (more precisely Hamiltons) mistake was making the Dooley hire in a panic. He should have tagged Kippy the interim and took his time.

We can agree on that. Lane may have been a homerun hire if he stayed but getting rid of fulmer to risk our program with lane was a mistake. Gotta have a better plan that that. Dooley we all agree on lol

 

[hog88]

We can agree on that. Lane may have been a homerun hire if he stayed but getting rid of fulmer to risk our program with lane was a mistake. Gotta have a better plan that that. Dooley we all agree on lol

I don't mind an AD rolling the dice on a coach like Lane, especially with the staff that he was bringing with him.

 

[Visiting Dawg]

One word...Cyclical. With 8 to 10 elite budget schools fighting over the prize, everyone will have ups and downs.

Mark Richt was about as stable as they come at UGA but he was up and down but never quite elite. Fulmer when way up, maybe even elite and then started to fade. Keeping either wasn't going to lead to a dynasty.

Bama under Saban wasn't necessarily stable when he won his first championship. He was well funded, well supported and a great coach. Although it doesn't seem like it will end, it will and Bama will slide back somewhat. Commitment to excellence and top notch leadership wins.

 

[VolForLife83]

Our issue hasn't been firing coaches; it's been hiring cheap, bad coaches....

If we kept Dooley for 8 years or Butch for 10 years, we'd have stability but we'd suck....

This. You can stabilize crap, but your just stabilized crap. Alabama has turnover yearly, they are doing fine. We need talent and someone who can coach. I like Pruitt, but I'm not sure he's the guy. Seems like he's going to be too stubborn and prideful to adapt

 

[HonestVol24]

This. You can stabilize crap, but your just stabilized crap. Alabama has turnover yearly, they are doing fine. We need talent and someone who can coach. I like Pruitt, but I'm not sure he's the guy. Seems like he's going to be too stubborn and prideful to adapt

Adapt to what?

 

[VolForLife83]

Adapt to what?

The game? Our opponents and style of play. Everyone else is evolving, even Nick changes.

 

[Samthebam]

Adapt to what?

Adapt? The guy’s been here one year, and he’s been fighting a dumpster fire his entire time.

I’m not convinced he’s the guy, too early to tell, but I’ll at least show appreciation for a guy that’s working awfully hard to reverse years of program neglect by a whole host of dumb decision-makers.

 

[Samthebam]

And I was trying to quote VFL83, lol!

 

[livefaith]

I'm too lazy to do the research, so I' going out on a limb here to say ... "Bad results lead to soon coming instability".

 

[Jack Burton]

Things have declined since the day Dickey retired, and to get back to top 10 teams quality stability is a must. This is a 5 year rebuild and if Pruitt is the right guy each year should be better than the last. The problem is that we’re off to a poor start. There were 3 chances to get a spark going.

1) Make a Bowl - Didn’t happen
2) Hire the best OC available - Freeze didn’t happen
3) Sign a top 5-10 type class - Not trending that way

2 and 3 could still be decent so it’s not over but it doesn’t seem like we have good momentum with either. Landing 1 out of 3 would have been enough for excitement.

Does it matter in a 5 year rebuild? Maybe not a ton but Pruitt’s perception will be tied to how long the fans will support. Florida fans are convinced they have the right guy in Mullen, but it’s a harder sell here for Pruitt even with us desperate for any shred of good news on which to hang our hopes .

 

[lifeisdeep]

We lost all stability when fulmer was fired. Throughout sec history when you lose or fire an iconic hall of fame caliber coach there’s most always a 4-6 year period where big time programs have bad/mediocre years before getting back, sometimes it takes even longer. It’s happened to Florida, bama multiple times, Auburn, Georgia etc. whether is was right or the wrong time to fire fulmer has been talked to death. You don’t fire big time coaches unless you have an ace up your sleeve to replace him and we had bad luck with our ace. Now we’re suffering the consequences. Alabama went through the same 10 year stretch prior to saban (although never this bad). Georgia is where they are because mark richt built a stable program. Our fan base would have ran him off long before Georgia did. Kirby didn’t do anything special. Just walked into a loaded roster and kept the ball rolling in recruiting. The 2 best teams in our league are where they are because of stability. Stability makes it possible to recruit at high levels and go to the next level. When Tennessee and Florida ran the sec for a decade or so it was because we were the most stable programs. Until our fan base and administration have patience, which at this point is hard, we’re going to continue to go through the same exact cycle. Firing coaches and wanting them fired year after year doesn’t fix programs, it sets it back even more. Fulmer was brought back to stabilize the program and excerize the patience needed to bring it back. That’s what he’s doing with Pruitt. It’s going to take a few years and multiple classes but I’ll ride with Phil any day of the week. Have patience. Stop being the fire coaches every year fan base. It just makes the process that much longer. We finally have a Tennessee guy running the program again, well be back.

You disproved your own argument with one of your examples. Bama had four coaches between 1996 and 2006, five if you count Price who never coached a game. We have had four coaches since 2009. Bama found their Saban; the jury remains out as to whether we have found ours. I feel safe saying that very few Vol fans want Pruitt fired. But expecting the UTAD, Fulmer, and Pruitt to not screw up this OC search beyond all recognition does not make us unreasonable fans. It makes us sane people who have weathered ten years of unparalleled incompetence and have had enough.