So it's obvious. We still haven't attracted a top coach.

#101
#101
MWAVolfan said:
You could get any head coach to eat dog sh!t right off the grass if you paid him enough money. This situation is ALL about money.

Alabama, after a decade of losing, backed up the dump truck of cash to Nick Saban's house and said "you WILL be our head coach. How much do you need?"
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That wasn't it. Saban chose a program with a top-10 local talent base after he was on the eve of getting canned in the NFL. Plenty of coaches turn down the $ for two reasons: first, if they think the job is a career-killer, then the $, long-term, is not a good investment financially; and second, many coaches are as motivated by legacy and success as they are by just money. The $ being circulated as an offer to Gruden was in the Saban range with a bigger guarantee payday (e.g. how much you get if fired.) He still turned it down. The $ being offered to Kelly was a pay raise; he turned it down. The $ being offered to Sumlin was a pay raise; he turned it down. Remember even Dooley and Jones, two relative no-names, were really given $10M+ guarantees to take the job. Why? Because their agents successfully could argue this job is seen as a career-killer, so big guarantees were needed even for no-names to take the gig.
 
#102
#102
TGVol said:
The program is already under coaching trauma as we speak. So something will need to be done or we'll have empty Neyland next year. Either Hart will try to be part of the solution or will be out with Butch as part of the problem. Unless Butch turns things around and wins out the rest of the games, and/or manages to pull in another top 10 class. I'll let you speculate how likely you think it is for either of those scenarios to materialize.
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Attendance is not dropping. The game day experience at Neyland is why people go. We lost to AR/FL/OK by a combined 12 points and one of those was OT, so we are not getting embarrassed like some Dools games.
 
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#103
#103
QuickSmurf said:
And college football is nothing like it was in the 90's. It is more competitive now than ever in history. There are so many more schools now spending millions on this sport.
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While it is true more schools are spending millions there is no question that most of those teams we had in the 90's would still be ranked in top 5 right now and kicking a$$ by playing the same pro style we did back then. Bring back Phil and Cutcliff and they will prove it (Cutcliff by the way even proved it at Duke of all places).
 
#104
#104
volberry said:
Then the fans need to start a riot. We don't have to take this. A least try to make a decent effort.
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Fans that are cured from vandyitus and dont except losing need to stop attending the games and spending the $. Watch them lose on tv. Save your $
 
#105
#105
Boston Vol said:
No, in 2008 Patterson or Kelly would have taken the job. Mikey decided to go with Kiffin. Sumlin wanted the job, Mikey went with Dools.
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They were not interested, as evident by the fact they actually turned it down when offered. Dooley was the 5th choice that year. Patterson has said he does not want to leave TCU for some time; he didn't even budge when Texas was interested.
 
#106
#106
With the awesome support from the message board gang, you'd think those premier never ever lose coaches would be lining up outside Gate 21 for their statue poses.
 
#107
#107
​
VegasVol said:
They were not interested, as evident by the fact they actually turned it down when offered. Dooley was the 5th choice that year. Patterson has said he does not want to leave TCU for some time; he didn't even budge when Texas was interested.
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What? Patterson would have taken the Clemson job in 2009, but they stuck with then interim coach Dabo Swinney. In 2010, when Tennessee called Patterson called again he told them to flip off because of the way he had been treated the previous year. You're right about Dooley. In 2010 Cutcliffe, Whittingham, Calhoun, Muschamp, and Patterson said no. Sumlin still would have taken the job.
 
#108
#108
VegasVol said:
They were not interested, as evident by the fact they actually turned it down when offered. Dooley was the 5th choice that year. Patterson has said he does not want to leave TCU for some time; he didn't even budge when Texas was interested.
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Facts don't matter. We're talking coaching the Vols! (Blue font)
 
#109
#109
Our fan base is high strung. No one wants to deal with constant negativity in a tough conference. Once we lose enough for our fan base to chill out and give it time, we will win. The 90's ruined our fans. imo
 
#110
#110
I just don't think they identified the right guy.

Michigan broke the bank for Harbaugh, but I don't think Florida did for McElwain.

Finding the right guy is not an exact science. I didn't think Charlie Strong could be this bad
 
#111
#111
The University of Tennessee is why were in this mess, they did all the hiring and firing with little regard to one very important item: It's Football program
 
#112
#112
VegasVol said:
Because this job combines high expectations with high obstacles to meeting those expectations. TV contracts and modern college football allow a lot of programs to offer competitive contracts, so our edge there is minimal, and even if it were more, it would be a high-risk job for the smart candidate. Here is why:

1. The number 1 factor in winning is talent better than your schedule;
2. The number 1 factor in recruiting talent is a local talent base with loyalty to your football brand;
3. 9 of our competitors in the SEC have better local talent bases than we do, including Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Texas A&M, Ole Miss, Miss. State, and 2 are close/comparable in Arkansas & Missouri;
4. This means that if we hire a coach as good as those programs, we should still lose 5 to 6 games each year, due to their built-in local talent base competitive advantage;
5. Our program fired a coach who had, for only the 2nd time in his 16+ year career, lost 6 games in a season, a coach who was a HOF local who had appeared in the SEC title game the year before and won a national title for the program, a fan base who believes we should be "SEC title or bust" in our expectations, should beat our much-more-local-talent rivals Florida, Alabama and Georgia each year, and find 8-win-a-season contracts a "joke."

Given that the modern SEC features good coaches throughout, a coach to meet UT fan expectations would have to achieve what no coach has achieved anywhere -- out-recruit good recruiters for their local talent and out-coach more talented teams on a consistent, exceptional basis. That is why only an idiot (or a big-hat-and-no-cattle kind of coach, exactly the kind we have hired 3 times in a row when the better coaches all turned us down) would ever jump to take the Tennessee job. Fan delusions about the reality of where we stand in the college football landscape (lack-of-local-talent-base in a brutal-SEC-schedule with fans expecting titles-or-bust) is why we are here.
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I agree with a lot of this. I'll also add that bad decisions by Hamilton have really complicated the finances. It's one thing to pay big bucks to a head coach, but when you have to pay for 2 of them, it does make things harder.

I'd also point out that most candidates are married and have families. While E. TN seems like paradise to some, it's not viewed that way by many. If momma ain't happy...as the saying goes. Really, when you get guys like Patterson making 3.5 mil at TCU and they're happy/secure, how much money would be "enough" to make them uproot the family and move?

To the point, money is a big part of it, but the ability to succeed and making sure it's the right fit for the coach and family can't be ignored. Not the slam dunk many UT fans would like to think it is.

Maybe we can get the budget back on solid ground by taking a break from supporting women's athletics and the academic side for a few years? Let them self support for a bit.
 
#113
#113
VegasVol said:
That wasn't it. Saban chose a program with a top-10 local talent base after he was on the eve of getting canned in the NFL. Plenty of coaches turn down the $ for two reasons: first, if they think the job is a career-killer, then the $, long-term, is not a good investment financially; and second, many coaches are as motivated by legacy and success as they are by just money. The $ being circulated as an offer to Gruden was in the Saban range with a bigger guarantee payday (e.g. how much you get if fired.) He still turned it down. The $ being offered to Kelly was a pay raise; he turned it down. The $ being offered to Sumlin was a pay raise; he turned it down. Remember even Dooley and Jones, two relative no-names, were really given $10M+ guarantees to take the job. Why? Because their agents successfully could argue this job is seen as a career-killer, so big guarantees were needed even for no-names to take the gig.
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So UT is a coach killer. How did that happen? We deserve to know.
 
#114
#114
volberry said:
If that's true then you get what you pay for. Paying a top coach returns itself to the program. This can't be a hart decision. This must be a UT admin decision. They obviously don't get it. So basically we lucked out by having Majors and Fulmer who just loved UT enough to come home and stay. Nobody is going to work for minimum wage anymore.
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This is what Bama finally learned and we've still failed to. A winning program is a profitable program; a coach is an investment. Does Bama have more and/or richer boosters? Do they have wealthier residents with more discretionary income than the state of TN? Doubt it.

They have more bowl money, more kickoff game monies, consistent sellouts, 90k attendees at spring games, increased enrollment creating more alumni annually willing to give back, bandwagon merchandise purchases etc.

A game in itself is an investment for fans. Not one that produces financial gain but emotional gain. People are willing to "throw away" money if it produces a desirable emotional outcome; winning does that. Maslow's pyramid of economic needs is a pretty solid theory of what motivates folks and how money can be expected to be spent. Physiological and safety needs (basic survival) come first, at the bottom, followed by belongingness and esteem. If there's no sense of return as one moves up the pyramid they may never come off the bottom of that pyramid, because as one moves up the needs are no longer imperative, they're more emotional.

I'm more willing to spend $300 a weekend if we have a solid chance of winning because it makes me "feel good"; I got a return. As the losses mount up we as fans find money and time to be better spent elsewhere or saved. That pulls money from the program and local economy. I'd venture to say many of us don't labor over money spent when we have a big win but feel like our money and time are "wasted" after a loss, despite spending the same amount regardless of the outcome.
 
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#115
#115
UT can pretty much get any coach they want...open up the pocketbook and I promise you we get whomever we want...Gruden?..Absolutely...But he doesn't come cheap and he won't even return phone calls for $2-3 million...That kind of money is laughable these days....The truth hurts and it is what it is...UT will always be cheap and go after up and coming mid majors hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.
 
#117
#117
VOLnMiami said:
UT can pretty much get any coach they want...open up the pocketbook and I promise you we get whomever we want...Gruden?..Absolutely...But he doesn't come cheap and he won't even return phone calls for $2-3 million...That kind of money is laughable these days....The truth hurts and it is what it is...UT will always be cheap and go after up and coming mid majors hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.
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Gruden?.....Absolutely....LMFAO
 
#120
#120
VegasVol said:
Because this job combines high expectations with high obstacles to meeting those expectations. TV contracts and modern college football allow a lot of programs to offer competitive contracts, so our edge there is minimal, and even if it were more, it would be a high-risk job for the smart candidate. Here is why:

1. The number 1 factor in winning is talent better than your schedule;
2. The number 1 factor in recruiting talent is a local talent base with loyalty to your football brand;
3. 9 of our competitors in the SEC have better local talent bases than we do, including Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Texas A&M, Ole Miss, Miss. State, and 2 are close/comparable in Arkansas & Missouri;
4. This means that if we hire a coach as good as those programs, we should still lose 5 to 6 games each year, due to their built-in local talent base competitive advantage;
5. Our program fired a coach who had, for only the 2nd time in his 16+ year career, lost 6 games in a season, a coach who was a HOF local who had appeared in the SEC title game the year before and won a national title for the program, a fan base who believes we should be "SEC title or bust" in our expectations, should beat our much-more-local-talent rivals Florida, Alabama and Georgia each year, and find 8-win-a-season contracts a "joke."

Given that the modern SEC features good coaches throughout, a coach to meet UT fan expectations would have to achieve what no coach has achieved anywhere -- out-recruit good recruiters for their local talent and out-coach more talented teams on a consistent, exceptional basis. That is why only an idiot (or a big-hat-and-no-cattle kind of coach, exactly the kind we have hired 3 times in a row when the better coaches all turned us down) would ever jump to take the Tennessee job. Fan delusions about the reality of where we stand in the college football landscape (lack-of-local-talent-base in a brutal-SEC-schedule with fans expecting titles-or-bust) is why we are here.
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These programs hired better coaches , cut a lot of that talent off to Fulmer as well. Jim Donan getting Rodney Garner out from under us started that down fall. Now what i think hurt worse is the Carolina schools hiring good coaches as well. Fulmer got a lot of really good players out of both states. North Carolina, Clemson and South Carolina starting keeping that talent home..

That's why the UT job really needs a proven guy. After a while the cliches and hype sales pitches don't work if you're crapping the bed every Saturday. Right now it really wouldn't take a Saban to have this bunch playing a lot better football. Give it a couple of cycles of stale recruiting and it's the Dooley deal all over again where you have to purge half the roster due to all the Sun Belt talent you collected.
 
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#122
#122
VegasVol said:
Because this job combines high expectations with high obstacles to meeting those expectations. TV contracts and modern college football allow a lot of programs to offer competitive contracts, so our edge there is minimal, and even if it were more, it would be a high-risk job for the smart candidate. Here is why:

1. The number 1 factor in winning is talent better than your schedule;
2. The number 1 factor in recruiting talent is a local talent base with loyalty to your football brand;
3. 9 of our competitors in the SEC have better local talent bases than we do, including Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, Alabama, Auburn, LSU, Texas A&M, Ole Miss, Miss. State, and 2 are close/comparable in Arkansas & Missouri;
4. This means that if we hire a coach as good as those programs, we should still lose 5 to 6 games each year, due to their built-in local talent base competitive advantage;
5. Our program fired a coach who had, for only the 2nd time in his 16+ year career, lost 6 games in a season, a coach who was a HOF local who had appeared in the SEC title game the year before and won a national title for the program, a fan base who believes we should be "SEC title or bust" in our expectations, should beat our much-more-local-talent rivals Florida, Alabama and Georgia each year, and find 8-win-a-season contracts a "joke."

Given that the modern SEC features good coaches throughout, a coach to meet UT fan expectations would have to achieve what no coach has achieved anywhere -- out-recruit good recruiters for their local talent and out-coach more talented teams on a consistent, exceptional basis. That is why only an idiot (or a big-hat-and-no-cattle kind of coach, exactly the kind we have hired 3 times in a row when the better coaches all turned us down) would ever jump to take the Tennessee job. Fan delusions about the reality of where we stand in the college football landscape (lack-of-local-talent-base in a brutal-SEC-schedule with fans expecting titles-or-bust) is why we are here.
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This is absolutely on point .

I kinda compare us with Nebraska . The new age college football world is made to benefit the schools with great instate talent .

And as for big fish . The only big fish I see as a possibility would be a coach that played here or from here . Do u see any of those around besides gruden who makes 7 mil to sit in nice comfortable room and talk ?
 
#123
#123
VOLnMiami said:
UT can pretty much get any coach they want...open up the pocketbook and I promise you we get whomever we want...Gruden?..Absolutely...But he doesn't come cheap and he won't even return phone calls for $2-3 million...That kind of money is laughable these days....The truth hurts and it is what it is...UT will always be cheap and go after up and coming mid majors hoping to catch lightening in a bottle.
Click to expand...

Any coach they want? Sorry but this is just as dumb as saying Butch can get any recruit he wants. If UT could get any coach they wanted, then we never would have gotten Jones. He was what, like Harts 4th or 5th choice?
 
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