So...I'm Confused...

[OrangeBlitz]

I, and many other posters like me, have been fans longer than many of you have been alive...likely twice as long.

Not saying that isn't a true statement, by any stretch of the imagination, but if you've been a UT fan for twice as long as I've been alive then I congratulate you for making it to the nonagenarian stage.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

So why are you *****ing and moaning this year then?

I think it is you and other posters like you who are doing the "*****ing and moaning this year".

I, and many posters like me, are discussing the team performance, coaching performance, feelings about their abilities, potential for wins/losses this year and next, etc.

You, and posters like you, choose to only ***** and moan about other posters that don't agree with you.

 

[OrangeBlitz]

Heart's BEEN broken off and on over the last 10. Gotta stop making up reasons for it to be so again.

Or longer. I remember losing to Florida in the late 90's and being absolutely physically sick because of it.

Teams lose games...they lose games they should win. How do you think Arkansas felt after the Stumble Fumble? They definitely should have won that game. I'm glad they didn't, of course.

Over the course of this thread I've settled into the belief that some people are just more patient than others. I'm contented with solid improvement year after year and allowing Butch sufficient time to prove he can get us where we all want us to be.

And before you ask what "sufficient time" is, let me give you an example.

If we end the regular season at 8-4 and win the bowl game (or play very well against a superior team), I'll call this year an improvement. For the sake of brevity (or as brief as I ever get) let's assume the bowl situation is the same every year...win or do very well against a superior opponent. Then, next year, if we go 9-3 with a win against Florida or Bama, I'll consider that an improvement. If 2017 gets us to a 10 win season and a shot at the SECCG, I'm good. If all those happen, there shouldn't be any reason why we don't finish 2018 with an 11 win season and a shot at the NC.

So...if we're in the talk (in november) for the NC in 3 years, I'll be happy. Won't you (not butchna particularly...the proverbial "you")?

As long as we make noticeable improvement year after year (which I think we can agree we have), then I'm good. I'm just too old to live and die on a game by game basis anymore. Maybe you're not. And I guess that's fine but, if I may make a suggestion, relax or it'll kill ya. :good!:

 

[butchna]

Or longer. I remember losing to Florida in the late 90's and being absolutely physically sick because of it.

Teams lose games...they lose games they should win. How do you think Arkansas felt after the Stumble Fumble? They definitely should have won that game. I'm glad they didn't, of course.

Over the course of this thread I've settled into the belief that some people are just more patient than others. I'm contented with solid improvement year after year and allowing Butch sufficient time to prove he can get us where we all want us to be.

And before you ask what "sufficient time" is, let me give you an example.

If we end the regular season at 8-4 and win the bowl game (or play very well against a superior team), I'll call this year an improvement. For the sake of brevity (or as brief as I ever get) let's assume the bowl situation is the same every year...win or do very well against a superior opponent. Then, next year, if we go 9-3 with a win against Florida or Bama, I'll consider that an improvement. If 2017 gets us to a 10 win season and a shot at the SECCG, I'm good. If all those happen, there shouldn't be any reason why we don't finish 2018 with an 11 win season and a shot at the NC.

So...if we're in the talk (in november) for the NC in 3 years, I'll be happy. Won't you (not butchna particularly...the proverbial "you")?

As long as we make noticeable improvement year after year (which I think we can agree we have), then I'm good. I'm just too old to live and die on a game by game basis anymore. Maybe you're not. And I guess that's fine but, if I may make a suggestion, relax or it'll kill ya. :good!:

All good advice...and no, I'm not the "proverbial you".

 

[The Tall Gguy]

Also, how about not bashing folks to hell and back for pointing out that the team/coaches took a step backward---which would not be categorized as "improvement year after year"?

 

[OrangeBlitz]

Also, how about not bashing folks to hell and back for pointing out that the team/coaches took a step backward---which would not be categorized as "improvement year after year"?

Bashing to hell and back??? Wow... I'll admit I used a bit of colorful license here and there, but I don't think there was any bashing going on. Definitely not to hell and back.

I was merely pointing out the dichotomy between calling for wins above play and then turning around and calling for solid play above wins.

I know that some people will say the "sunshine pumpers" do the same, but in reverse. It's just an optimist/pessimist thing, I guess. I like to focus on the positives and others would rather dwell on the flip side.

That's not saying Butch gets a free pass forever...I just think that now is entirely too soon to be talking about replacement and "must win" games.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

OrangeBlitz:

The bashing is not limited to just this thread...that is a general occurrence on this board. I really don't see a lot of people calling for Butch's head. I think people just want some kind of accountability rather than hearing about the "process". Ok it was really bad, now it is not so bad...when can we expect to really start winning?

No doubt getting a bowl is good, and winning (hopefully) 8 regular season games is good, but is it good enough? Should we be satisfied? Should we not expect to win?

The sunshine pumpers and negavols will never agree, and there really are few of each. Most people are somewhere in between.

The bottom line (as Ric Flair would say) is that ALL is not well with our program, but at the same time, ALL is not bad either.

 

[Volsick]

The Legion of the Miserable never forgives, and never forgets.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

The Legion of the Oblivious (Sunshine Pumpers/Coach Worshipers) Never holds anyone accountable and doesn't remember what a winning program is like.

 

[Dragon18]

Also, how about not bashing folks to hell and back for pointing out that the team/coaches took a step backward---which would not be categorized as "improvement year after year"?

Most would disagree with the premise of your argument regarding the team and staff taking a step back. All the data would clearly indicate improvement year over year.

Edit: and that is not bashing but stating what is the real situation.

 

[butchna]

The Legion of the Oblivious (Sunshine Pumpers/Coach Worshipers) Never holds anyone accountable and doesn't remember what a winning program is like.

Some of us were fans, dating back to the 70s. Kinda condescending of you. :hi:

 

[Backwards K]

And the Legion of the Ignorant don't realize how difficult it is to build a winning program back from where Hamilton and Dooley left this one.

 

[OrangeBlitz]

No doubt getting a bowl is good, and winning (hopefully) 8 regular season games is good, but is it good enough? Should we be satisfied? Should we not expect to win?

Of course we should expect to win, but we should also realize that sometimes we won't. You state that winning 8 regular season games is good. Well that's winning. It's not winning them all, but it's winning more than 5.

I'll take a different tack here and ask WHEN should we be satisfied? 10 wins? 11? Undefeated? If it's 10 then should we call the entire season a bust because of that one loss? Without winning every game every year there is room for improvement. There's ALWAYS room for improvement.

Again, for me, proof of consistent improvement (until we're in the hunt for the SECCG every year) is reasonable.

You talk about taking steps back and all that but, as I've said, I'm too old to wring my hands over individual games...especially ones that we win. You may not be and, if not, more power to you. Like I said, I've come to the conclusion that we just look at things differently. Maybe this is the way let off steam so that each loss doesn't give you an ulcer. If so, that's fine.

 

[jakez4ut]

Originally Posted by The Tall Gguy View Post
No doubt getting a bowl is good, and winning (hopefully) 8 regular season games is good, but is it good enough? Should we be satisfied? Should we not expect to win?

Of course we should expect to win, but we should also realize that sometimes we won't. You state that winning 8 regular season games is good. Well that's winning. It's not winning them all, but it's winning more than 5.

I'll take a different tack here and ask WHEN should we be satisfied? 10 wins? 11? Undefeated? If it's 10 then should we call the entire season a bust because of that one loss? Without winning every game every year there is room for improvement. There's ALWAYS room for improvement.

Again, for me, proof of consistent improvement (until we're in the hunt for the SECCG every year) is reasonable.

.

i think it has more to do with where you are in the development of the program. we've hardly risen to the top where we should have expectations year in and year out like we did thru out the 90's and early 00's.

and we're not as bad as we were mid 00's to '13.

we're in the process of taking that next step back up to having good seasons and hopefully having a post season regularly.

that's not fast enough for many, watching FL be a top 10 team in year one of coach mac. or watching michigan w/1 or 2 losses....with CJH 1st year.

but i think right now, taking a step back, from a developmental standpoint, we're on track. we're not going backwards, and we're not staying the same.

and it's implied that if your developing, that there's always a next step. so no, 8 wins isn't good enough in the grand scheme of things. but is it right now? yeah, i think it is. is it next year or the year after? no, not it's not. at some point, the goal is to be that team that's going to realistically compete for SEC East, that means you're going to have to field a team that can and will win 9+ games pretty much year in and year out. if you're doing that, then you're putting yourself in position to play in ATL, and if you win that, then you can do big things with your season.


my goal, get out of september more often than 5 times in the last 25 years controlling your fate. have games in october and november mean something.

in short. be relevant past the 1st qtr of the season.

 

[Vol-in-Atlanta]

That could be a while depending on how long the minuets are.

yeah, my bad. Should have edited better.

 

[The Tall Gguy]

Again, Butch, not calling nor do I consider you a sunshine pumper or coach worshiper...just speaking generally like Volsick--who I do consider a Coach worshipping Sunshine Pumper).

I also was a fan in the 70s. I was a fan in the 90s. I attended the Wyoming game we lost in 2008. I went to school at Tennessee and paid them tons of money for that privilege.

Dragon--As far as overall season improvement, I am not talking about this season--as I have admitted, the record will be an improvement. As far as overall season improvement, I'm talking about in the future.
As far as game to game improvement goes, this season is fair game.

 

[JC61]

That could be a while depending on how long the minuets are.

Bach, Handel, Beethoven, et.al. would disagree...to a degree

 

[Volition 1.0]

You're not confused.

You're rational.

Case close.

(edited for G rating)

 

[Falcons02]

Your a Libra aren't you darlin

Aquarius, Alice.

 

[VolNExile]

Not saying that isn't a true statement, by any stretch of the imagination, but if you've been a UT fan for twice as long as I've been alive then I congratulate you for making it to the nonagenarian stage.

He'd have been a fan for 122 years in my case.

Oh, and after the first game, I was ALWAYS picked first in kickball AND dodgeball, and that was way before Title 9, so phllbbt to the other guy too. :neener:

 

[The Tall Gguy]

It would be nice if people read posts before commenting on them...I clearly said I had been a fan longer/twice as long as "many" NOT "all" of you have been alive. Many does not equal all.

 

[OrangeBlitz]

I don't see where anyone said you said All. If you'll review my comment on that, you'll see that I began with "Not saying that statement isn't true by any stretch of the imagination."

After that, I went on to address that statement as it would apply to ME. Not everyone...ME.

No need to get exasperated over things that don't deserve it. :thumbsup:

 

[touchdown-tony]

It seems that any criticism of coaching is often met with sarcastic replies of "fahr Butch" or something - as if there are not legitimate questions about Jones and staff and/or that any concerns mean you want to clean house.

This is the best Tennessee team since AT LEAST Kiffin's year. But there are still some serious and real concerns as to whether this staff can consistently win big games.

 

[Flipdaddy]

Ok. I'm a bit confused here and need some direction on how to be a compliant little VN poster (although I rarely post).

Through most of Butch's tenure on the Hill, I've logged on to read statements about how people are looking for wins. "Butch isn't winning enough," or "He can sure recruit, but he's just not winning," or "Don't give me that 'moral victory' crap, we lost the game."

That last one was especially prevalent during the first three losses of this season. The general feel on the board seemed to be that we were playing good ball for a half and then shutting down. That seems to be a true statement. Now the more negatively minded amongst the faithful here quickly derided anyone that took our boys play as being a bright point. They fell back on the "we're still losing" bandwagon.

So the season progresses and we notch wins against Georgia (then ranked in the Top 20 and holding a 5 year winning streak against us) and South Carolina (for the third year in a row) and, most recently, against lowly North Texas.

Suddenly the story has changed. Now I read that "yes we're getting wins, but their garbage wins," and "we're playing too conservatively," and, to put a current spin on an old favorite, "Fahr Butch!"

It seems that now it doesn't matter if we win, only if we demolish our competition. We beat Georgia but they suck now. We beat SC but they're in transition and also...they suck. We held North Texas scoreless and won by more than 3 scores, but that's irrelevant. We should have won that game by the score of 119-0. Now wins don't matter...only the way we play.

So it can't be both ways...either wins solely matter or efficiency of play solely matters. Can't be both. Is there an explanation here I'm missing?

I was born and raised in Knoxville (I've now relocated to Chatt town) and have been a Vols fan like my father before me, and his father before him, since I could grasp the concept of what a game even was. Do I wish we were enjoying the success that Bama has had for the past 8 years or so? Of course I do. Do I wish we were constantly in the mix for the National Championship? Desperately. Do I wish we consistently dominated all opponents on our schedule? With all my heart.

But...

I also recognize that we're playing better ball than we were before and our record is slowly improving. We're beating SEC teams again and put up a damned good showing against a quality Oklahoma team.

So which is it? Should I hate Butch because he doesn't win enough or should I hate him because he doesn't win convincingly enough?

I know this isn't a new thread, but I'd read all I could take and wanted to vent. I've done that now. Carry on. :hi:

I get what you're saying but I think you are forgetting how those games were lost. That's the scary part for fans. These guys haven't proven that they can be winners yet. Too many stupid in game decisions that have cost them games they should've EASLIY won. Alabama...ok. UF OU and Arky. Should've been wins no question. Until this staff proves that they can coach a team to a complete game with a quality opponent, fans have a right to piss and moan IMO. GO VOLS!

 

[eakes]

The major factor in Tennessee losing those four games was fatigue on defense. The plays that were being stopped in the first quarter were much more effective in the 4th - why?, the defensive players were a half step or so slower than in the first. Experienced, quality depth on defense would have alleviated most of those problems.

The cause proffered by most was coaching 'adjustments'. Coaching adjustments at half time or during a game is highly overrated. I am not convinced that any coach, at any point in the game would say to their offense something on the order of "The plays in our game plan are not working, instead we are going to run the following plays, that we haven't practiced in two weeks". Not going to happen! They are going to run the plays in their game plan - those they spent all week preparing to run. Granted, the coach may deicide to pass more on offense or blitz more on defense but major adjustments are not going to happen.

Tennessee losses in those games was almost 100% execution, or lack of, by the players.