So can we revisit the Butch Davis hissy fit yet? (merged)

[Oldblood]

I'll admit I wanted Davis the most. I was very disappointed UT didn't make a stronger push to get him. I will also admit I am pleased with our current staff but I am still in wait and see mode. Finally, I will add that winning at UT and Miami is a totally different animal from winning at UNC.
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UT is more of a premier program vs. UNC. So in that way it is more like Miami. However, I would argue that the weakness in conference makes up for any difference between UNC and UT. A good coach should be able to consistently put up 9-10 wins in the ACC. Davis should be doing that in his third year.

 

[n_huffhines]

you have to go that far back to defend your point (not to mention ASU was a 3 time defending champ of 1aa)? Talking about this year and head to head the CAA is better against the ACC

That far back? That was only 3 years ago. How about this year? Iowa is 7-0 and their closest game was against NIU. Talking about last year, head to head the MWC was better than the SEC (2-0). I doubt you would say that means the SEC was weak.

 

[Vercingetorix]

I agree. I think Kiffin was a man of interest long before Fulmer was on the hot seat.

It was interesting to read that Hamilton's 2nd choice was the guy at Air Force in Clay's book. Anybody got substantial proof on that. Don't trust Clay but he was around and had the opportunities to speak with people that might have known.
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The fact that Travis wrote that Hamilton never pursued Butch Davis means that he doesn't appear to have any idea what was really going on behind the scenes. He got an after-the-fact narrative with all the good parts stripped out of it.

 

[GmanTN]

Top SEC Teams
Alabama
Florida
LSU

Top ACC Teams
Ga Tech
Miami
Va Tech

Top Big 10 Teams
Iowa
Ohio State
Wisconsin

Top Big 12 Teams
Texas
Oklahoma St
Kansas

Top Pac 10 Teams
USC
Cal
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Top Big East Teams
Cincinnati
W. VA
USF

 

[VOLnMiami]

Davis can't get the type of recruits at UNC that he could've gotten here at UT....Not even close...He's still a great coach and I certainly would not have jumped off a bridge if We had hired him lol

 

[ridethelightening]

The fact that Travis wrote that Hamilton never pursued Butch Davis means that he doesn't appear to have any idea what was really going on behind the scenes. He got an after-the-fact narrative with all the good parts stripped out of it.

I had a hard time with facts in the book after reading that the Bama/UT score in 95 was 41 17. It may seem minor, but it lost credibility with me. The book was still very enjoyable, though.

I was just curious if anybody had a clue where Hamilton was turning if Kiffin wasn't available.
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[n_huffhines]

Davis can't get the type of recruits at UNC that he could've gotten here at UT....Not even close...He's still a great coach and I certainly would not have jumped off a bridge if We had hired him lol

NC has a lot of in-state talent, and I think Davis was overestimating his ability to coach. He was probably thinking in no time he'd be getting all the talent, and that it wouldn't be leaving the state. That's what he was banking on. He might have had a lot of talent going to Tennessee, but maybe he didn't like the prospect of going up against Meyer, Richt, Saban, and Spurrier every season.

 

[VolsFanRJ]

All offseason, a bunch of posters on this site complained about the Kiffin hire because it was "too risky," that Hamilton should have done more to bring a "proven winner" to Knoxville. When pressed for exactly which proven winner we should have hired, the answer was almost always "Butch Davis." We should have done whatever it took to get Butch Davis. When told that the disagreement was not over money, the answer was always, "Well, we should have just given him more money then. Butch Davis Butch Davis Butch Davis Butch Davis Butch Davis Butch Davis."

Well, gentlemen, this "proven winner" is now in Year 3 of his tenure, and he's 0-3 in a terrible conference. He just got beat at home by an awful FSU team. Half his wins this season have been against I-AA teams.

Why exactly am I supposed to feel disappointed that we didn't get this guy? The ACC is awful. If you can't get it done in Year 3 in the ACC, you can't get it done anymore.

Kudos to Mike Hamilton for not moving heaven and earth to get this guy. He's a has-been.


(Mods, feel free to move this to the NCAA forum if you feel it's more appropriate. I put it on the main board first because I'm hopeful of soliciting comment from some of our more ardent Davis enthusiasts.)

Dude this is a good post. You nailed it! I thought Butch Davis would be a good hire, I admit. But now I am so glad we didn't pay all this money to get him. That game last night was a joke. I like the coach we have!

 

[VolDad]

I'll admit I wanted Davis the most. I was very disappointed UT didn't make a stronger push to get him. I will also admit I am pleased with our current staff but I am still in wait and see mode. Finally, I will add that winning at UT and Miami is a totally different animal from winning at UNC.
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It should be easier winning in the ACC.

 

[GmanTN]

Butch Davis - Glad we did not hire him, he was fortunate when he was at the U
Jon Gruden - Would have been the ultimate failure on the hill, ran the Bucs into the ground.
Brian Kelly - A good coach but would not have had the position coaches we have now, I like the staff we have assembled.

 

[n_huffhines]

Jon Gruden - Would have been the ultimate failure on the hill, ran the Bucs into the ground.

What makes you say that? I don't know too much about it. I was kind of surprised when he got canned. He had a winning record in Tampa (and his last 2 seasons he went 9-7 in each). They weren't "in the ground" when he left, but they sure are now. If Tampa didn't know their place in the world when they were 9-7, they definitely know it now. Historically it's a bad franchise.

 

[LawVol13]

I'd take a 45 year old with a super bowl ring as a head coach over pretty much anyone. Kelly is Tressel 2.0 IMO. I think he is good, but I would have loved someone like Gruden to come here.

I absolutely agree. I like Kelly and think he is a good coach, but I would have much rather had Gruden if I had to pick from those two.

 

[GmanTN]

What makes you say that? I don't know too much about it. I was kind of surprised when he got canned. He had a winning record in Tampa (and his last 2 seasons he went 9-7 in each). They weren't "in the ground" when he left, but they sure are now. If Tampa didn't know their place in the world when they were 9-7, they definitely know it now. Historically it's a bad franchise.

He won with Dungy's players, as time passed the decline was evident. Gruden would not know a good QB if he went up to Gruden and punched him in the mouth. The Glaciers (sp) actually did Gruden a favor by canning him before the obvious was confirmed.

 

[LawVol13]

He won with Dungy's players, as time passed the decline was evident. Gruden would not know a good QB if he went up to Gruden and punched him in the mouth. The Glaciers (sp) actually did Gruden a favor by canning him before the obvious was confirmed.

Yea, look how much better they are now that they got rid of him.

 

[n_huffhines]

He won with Dungy's players, as time passed the decline was evident. Gruden would not know a good QB if he went up to Gruden and punched him in the mouth. The Glaciers (sp) actually did Gruden a favor by canning him before the obvious was confirmed.

That doesn't really address anything that I stated. I didn't even mention the Super Bowl to his credit, but you chose to discredit that. He went 9-7 the last 2 years and they are about to go 0-7 without him.

This isn't college. Those weren't Dungy's players, those were the Bucs' players. It seems like you are attributing the Bucs' management issues to Gruden. Do you think Gruden wanted Bruce Gradkowski as a starting QB? Bucs selected Freeman which sounds like it was a mistake. Let's put that one on Gruden, too. Gruden got a passer rating of 81.4 out of Simms one season for hell's sake. I think the guy can coach.

 

[GmanTN]

Redskins
Rams
Chargers
Panthers
Jaguars
All need a new coach, lets see who comes after Gruden and if has any success.

 

[n_huffhines]

"Redskins
Rams
Chargers
Panthers
Jaguars
All need a new coach, lets see who comes after Gruden and if has any success."
_________

Don't forget the Bucs look like they need a new head coach (although that doesn't concern Gruden). Also I wouldn't be surprised if Jerry Jones wants Gruden by season's end.

Shanahan is a proven coach. I don't see anybody beating down his door. Gruden will be presented opportunities. I think he would do well with any of those teams except for maybe the Redskins. The Redskins have some serious organizational problems. I like him with the Chargers. I think he would do great.

 

[timmy]

He won with Dungy's players, as time passed the decline was evident. Gruden would not know a good QB if he went up to Gruden and punched him in the mouth. The Glaciers (sp) actually did Gruden a favor by canning him before the obvious was confirmed.

If you want to play that card, who did the Bucs beat in the Super Bowl? Oh, that's right, the Raiders with Gruden's players, but I'm sure you'll say those were Al Davis' players because your argument failed.

 

[VolinDawgland]

The biggest need for this program NOW was restocking the talent and some infusion of energy. Kiffin was the best available from that stand point. Gruden was an interesting option but there's no evidence that he could come in and put together a staff that could hit the ground running recruitment wise. He's never done it, doesn't have the college connections for staff, etc. Kelly looks like an excellent coach that just gets every ounce of ability out of his players, but I'm not sure he could close the talent gap we have fast enough.

The beauty of Kiffin as it has played out so far is that he was a package deal with his daddy, Orgeron and others that he could hire quickly like Reeves. There is absolutely no staff you could have legitimately assembled that could come close to this staff in terms of recruiting impact and provide additional benefits of ramping up the publicity to the max and rapidly fixing the discipline issues. On almost every front this staff has just been amazing. There's also no reason to believe that they can't coach the talent that they're bringing.

So far I say excellent hire Hamilton!!!

 

[chavisut]

Butch Davis - Glad we did not hire him, he was fortunate when he was at the U
Jon Gruden - Would have been the ultimate failure on the hill, ran the Bucs into the ground.
Brian Kelly - A good coach but would not have had the position coaches we have now, I like the staff we have assembled.

He brought them back from probation.

 

[GmanTN]

If you want to play that card, who did the Bucs beat in the Super Bowl? Oh, that's right, the Raiders with Gruden's players, but I'm sure you'll say those were Al Davis' players because your argument failed.

The last winning HC for the Raiders was Gruden, and yes Gruden did beat his former players with Dungy's players, but that arguement is neither here or there.

Former players under Gruden typically do not speak highly of him. The college game requires patience at times from the HC, and that is something Chucky does not display. The patience in developing talent would drive Gruden insane.

If you like Gruden, good for you.
I am just glad he is not here.

 

[VolinConcord]

I absolutely agree. I like Kelly and think he is a good coach, but I would have much rather had Gruden if I had to pick from those two.

Gruden is good X and O coach, but I cannot see him on the recruiting trail or working a booster ***tion. The idea on paper is great but in application, he would have not been a good hire, IMO.
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[VolsSportsFan]

I was thinking the same thing about Davis last night. I know UNC isn't a football school, but his UNC teams sort of remind me of Bobby Johnson at Vandy. Since he's been there, they've lost several games now that they should have won, and many of them have been games they've had the lead and blown it. So even given it's UNC, they should be better than they have been.

 

[utmba93]

I had Gruden and Davis ahead of Kiffin.

Obviously, Gruden will never leave Tampa Bay and the Glazers will never be stupid enough to let him go, so that's was totally a pipe dream... but we were all thinking big and beyond reality at the onset.

I had Davis slightly ahead of Kiffin, but didn't feel we should wait if Davis balked.. and he did. UNC is not a football school. Davis would have done better at UT if he had been smart enough to take the job.

In hindsight, obviously, I was right about Gruden, but wrong about Davis. Kiffin has done better at UT than Davis would have, imo.

 

[GmanTN]

He brought them back from probation.

There has always been enough talent surrounding the Miami area and the state of Florida to field great teams. Davis capitalized on the in state talent with Coach O on his staff. Once Davis was no longer in FL the grind has become much harder for him. His 3rd season at UNC is proof of that.