Should Looters of non-essential items be shot

[OldVol]

I voted yes.

I forget the exact circumstances, but in 64 a particular governor issued an ultimatum that looters would be shot on spot. 3 looters were shot early after that and that ended the looting.

Looters of non-essential items commit a horrible crime against all of those who are attempting to recover from this great tragedy. Honest people who take food, clothing, blankets and items that can only be constured as essential will leave a note, or advise secruity in the area of their intentions.

Looters who are carrying arm loads of jeans, jewelry, sneakers, and electronic items are the lowest form of humanity.

If a person has lost their clothing and they need a couple of changes of clothing, no one would be opposed to that. Taking jewelry and large amounts of clothing or other non-essentials is a crime of the highest sort in this ravaged area.

 

[volbrian]

OK, is a plasma TV a non essential item? I think it is.

If a plasma TV can bring a trade for your family food, water, shelter or medicine, wouldnt that make it an essential item?

If a man gets shot stealing a plasma TV, one that he intends to use to trade for medicine for his sick infant, his starving child or his homeless wife, is that the right thing to do?

Its not like he is going to take the TV home, kick back and watch the game.

 

[BHAMVOLFAN]

I guess I'm more pro-life than pro-death, BUT in this situation, if there is going to be sanity again, this might be the best answer. The police have no jails to put these people into. In fact, as the situation is at this moment, the police are at a huge disadvantage. So, in this case, I vote yes.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by volbrian@Sep 1, 2005 1:01 PM
OK, is a plasma TV a non essential item?  I think it is.

If a plasma TV can bring a trade for your family food, water, shelter or medicine, wouldnt that make it an essential item?

If a man gets shot stealing a plasma TV, one that he intends to use to trade for medicine for his sick infant, his starving child or his homeless wife, is that the right thing to do?

Its not like he is going to take the TV home, kick back and watch the game.

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There are already 28000 relief workers in NO.

People are being made aware of these efforts. If people need medicine, wouldn't it be logical to seek out help from the government rather than stealing items to barter.

Justifying stealing a TV to barter for food just justifies stealing.

Honest people who take items in this environment would leave a note with their name, address, and personal information letting the store owner know they would pay for the goods as soon as they were capable.

Have you heard of any of these TV luggers doing that? NO!

They're thieves of the lowest sort and should be stopped.

 

[volmanjr]

I voted yes, taking food and clothing is one thing but seriously the people that broke into the jewelry store had no expectations of finding either, and they were not trying to get something to barter with, that justification would be applicable to robbing a bank in times of no tradegy, " I'm out of work ,so I robbed the bank to buy food and medicine for my family." I don't think so.

 

[OldVol]

I've actually changed my mind on this topic since I first heard it discussed right after the hurricane passed. I thought, this is a national tragedy; there surely won't be many people sorry enough to loot electronics stores and jewelry stores. Boy was I wrong. Human nature has really proven once again how low the lowest form can be.

When people loot, they take away police and rescue people from their primary job of aiding those who need it most.

Here's a novel approach.

If you're confronted with security personnel, why not ask them for assistance in getting you and your family (who you're looting those diamond ear rings for, to barter for food phhhhttt..) to a refugee location so the government can assure you that you'll be fed and cared for?

You can't break into the pawn store if you're stuck away in the Superdome.

 

[volmanjr]

"Sorry officer we took these guns and ammo from Wal-mart to go hunting with so we can feed the family."

 

[volbrian]

You know, its real easy for you and I to sit here at our PCs and debate what the best thing to do is. We are not faced with the same situations the folks in NO are.

Read about the folks who are trapped around the NO Convention Center, waiting for help, medicine, food, water and law enforcement to get there. I think they are going on their 4th day of waiting now.

 

[volmanjr]

Us not being faced with this tragedy does not make looting any less wrong!

 

[orange+white=heaven]

What confounds me is that after four days NOLA is still not full of National Guardsmen in every area, offering assistance and maintaining order. I get that the whole area is an unbelievable disaster of water, but I've seen citizens driving around. Why not Humvees! They were designed to tear through conditions like this!

 

[IBleedOrange24/7]

They are en route.

 

[volbrian]

Originally posted by volmanjr@Sep 1, 2005 2:03 PM
Us not being faced with this tragedy does not make looting any less wrong!

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And what I am saying is we arent in a situation where we have to make that choice. Me looting to keep my family from going hungry or maintaining my principles while my family starves?

Face it. Nobody on this board knows how they would face that question. You, nor I.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by volbrian@Sep 1, 2005 1:50 PM
You know, its real easy for you and I to sit here at our PCs and debate what the best thing to do is.  We are not faced with the same situations the folks in NO are. 

Read about the folks who are trapped around the NO Convention Center, waiting for help, medicine, food, water and law enforcement to get there.  I think they are going on their 4th day of waiting now.

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There are already anecdotes of great, selfless sacrifice being reported of people, who themselves were in harms way and lacking the bare essentials who have gone out of their way to aid their fellow man.

Then, there are countless images of thugs taking whatever they can find.

Great adversity presents great opportunity.

Good people do what is right when faced with adversity. Evil people revert to their nature as well.

Tragedy does not make heroes. It only provides an opportunity for what good lay within them to be manifest. Unfortunately the same is true of miscriants.

I know for a fact that if I were in this situation I would not take advantage of my fellow man. I do not have to be faced with this situation to know that my nature could not allow me to steal from my neighbor unless it was to sustain life, and even then, I'd make sure to leave a note telling them why I did it.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by orange+white=heaven@Sep 1, 2005 2:22 PM
What confounds me is that after four days NOLA is still not full of National Guardsmen in every area, offering assistance and maintaining order. I get that the whole area is an unbelievable disaster of water, but I've seen citizens driving around. Why not Humvees! They were designed to tear through conditions like this!

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The thugs have now caused FEMA to inform the rescuers to stand down due to some relief workers being fired on by gangs.

We need the military in there in a big way and we need to gut shot some of these gang members.

This behavior has to be stopped by force.

 

[Vol-In-Bama]

There is nothing to barter for. People are not going to say "hey, you trade me that diamond ring you just stole and I will give you some rotten chicken that we can't cook... " Taking food for your family is one thing, but taking these other items is deplorable. I voted for shooting! I know that without a doubt I would not be taking these non-essential items.... I survived Hurricane Andrew.

This is just a glimpse of Hell.

 

[GvHm6]

Originally posted by OldVol@Sep 1, 2005 3:09 PM
The thugs have now caused FEMA to inform the rescuers to stand down due to some relief workers being fired on by gangs.

We need the military in there in a big way and we need to gut shot some of these gang members.

This behavior has to be stopped by force.

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No cut and dried opinion on the title topic. I'd treat each case individually. If the looters showed themselves agressive, I'd respond in kind.

I was watching recent reports and thinking just how close to anarchy ANY big city can be. What keeps this 'element' of people from behaving this way on any given day?

I think a large portion of our military are occupied elsewhere??
Could that be the source of a few hours delay?

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by GvHm6@Sep 1, 2005 3:23 PM
No cut and dried opinion on the title topic. I'd treat each case individually. If the looters showed themselves agressive, I'd respond in kind.

I was watching recent reports and thinking just how close to anarchy ANY big city can be. What keeps  this 'element' of people from behaving this way on any given day?

I think a large portion of our military are occupied elsewhere??
Could that be the source of a few hours delay?

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I don't think we are lacking in military capability to deal with the problem. I think the problem is the logistics nightmare these flooded areas caused.

In the tragedies in NY city there were very little logistical problems. Ambulances and other services were able to move very close to the destruction and aid the vicitims. The great differnce is; there were very few victims of the collapsed towers to deal with. Most of the died in the towers.

As for shooting looters, I agree each case would be based on its merits.

In regards to anarcy; we're always a locked door away from anarchy. As in, a locked door only keeps out honest people.

There's an element of every society that evolves to its lowest common denominator the moment there is a breakdown in law and order.

We're just seeing an overwhelming display of human depravity in NO right now. It's very sad.

 

[Jmxvol]

I'd steal food if I had to, but what's the point of taking a flat screen and an AK?

 

[utvolpj]

I am absolutely appalled and saddened by the reports. I never thought human beings could act like this on such a grand scale. A few select people yes, but not a whole city.

And gvhm6 mentioned the military elsewhere, it is almost the exact same situation. Many people wanting and asking for help and a small group keeping it from being accomplished. When you hear about a military medical convoy being stopped because of sniper fire, where is the first place you picture? New Orleans or Baghdad? Now it seems it's both. Snipers

Sorry, didn't mean to go political.

 

[volmanjr]

"Sorry, didn't mean to go political"

hard not to in this thread

 

[OldVol]

I'll be honest. When I first saw this discussed elsewhere, I was in the don't shoot camp. I never in, in my worst thoughts imagined that Americans would behave with so little thought of their fellow man and their very neighbors.

This whole tragedy has really affected how I view things.

From all I've seen, if I were in a position of authority, I don't believe I'd have any problem shooting these thugs.

Over and over I imagine; what if it were my loved ones they were hindering from getting aid with thier barbaric behavior.

I don't mean to start something with this, but I think it's time we really took a hard look at how entertainment in America has played into this.

Our youth listen to rap music that endorses the very same behavior you're seeing fleshed out in the waterways of New Orleans. Movies create images of hoodlums running the streets, gunning down each other, and now we're seeing it in real life with an absence of law and order.

I will confess, on more than one occasion I've wept at these heart breaking images.

I ache for America.

 

[Jmxvol]

Music has nothing to do with it. Country music talks about drinking alcohol and being wasted all the time. Any kind of music can be harmful. Rap sucks because it is just bad music period these days coming out of the mouths of no-talent ass clowns. Metal, punk, rap, reggae, whatever...it all has to do with the lyrics, not the style of music.

 

[utvolpj]

Yeah, I don't agree w/ your view OldVol about the music. It goes much deeper than that. My dad w/ a belt in his hand (or mom w/ her hairbrush) had more influence over me than the N.W.A. tape I had in my walkman. The Hillary Clinton "it takes a village" crap obviously doesn't work. It's not child-abuse like the liberal judges try to make it out to be, it's discipline and good parenting.

Also, the movies have little to do w/ it either. I have seen some pretty violent movies and have never been tempted to rob or kill another person. It seems Americans these days are all looking for someone else to blame.

I do feel very sad for America today too. I never could have imagined this happening, especially in a post-9/11 world. It saddens me to see the greatest country in history be knocked down to this. Not to preach, but it is way too much of a coincidence that we are slowly going downhill and removing God from our everyday lives at the same time.

 

[OldVol]

Originally posted by utvolpj@Sep 1, 2005 9:44 PM
Yeah, I don't agree w/ your view OldVol about the music.  It goes much deeper than that.  My dad w/ a belt in his hand (or mom w/ her hairbrush) had more influence over me than the N.W.A. tape I had in my walkman.  The Hillary Clinton "it takes a village" crap obviously doesn't work.  It's not child-abuse like the liberal judges try to make it out to be, it's discipline and good parenting. 

Also, the movies have little to do w/ it either.  I have seen some pretty violent movies and have never been tempted to rob or kill another person.  It seems Americans these days are all looking for someone else to blame. 

I do feel very sad for America today too.  I never could have imagined this happening, especially in a post-9/11 world.  It saddens me to see the greatest country in history be knocked down to this.  Not to preach, but it is way too much of a coincidence that we are slowly going downhill and removing God from our everyday lives at the same time.

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Where you guys may have a very storng will, this isn't the case about all young people. Some are obviously influenced by the culture. Look at how kids emulate the dress, the walk, and the language of the rap culture. That doesn't mean every kid will be moved to violence by it, but even if a few are that is a very bad thing.

 

[utvolpj]

Originally posted by OldVol@Sep 1, 2005 10:15 PM
Where you guys may have a very storng will, this isn't the case about all young people. Some are obviously influenced by the culture. Look at how kids emulate the dress, the walk, and the language of the rap culture. That doesn't mean every kid will be moved to violence by it, but even if a few are that is a very bad thing.

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But still the fact remains I wouldn't have sat down for a week if I'd acted half as bad as many of these kids today. (I feel old for saying that since I'm only 30) It all starts @ home. Strong parenting wins over an impressionable youth any day.