Seems the Jaguars are following the Vol's example

#27
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#29
#29
madbamahater said:
I am not an attorney. Maybe someone can answer this. I'm guessing that the general public doesn't know the nuts and bolts of his contract. If you break a contractual agreement, does that make you subject to a firing with cause? Perhaps there were details of his contract, he either didn't fulfill or simple broke an agreement? Who knows....
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The general public absolutely does know the nuts and bolts of Pruitt's contract. Here it is:

https://2michy3wy0l30d34041dt1et-wp...s/sites/3/2019/08/Jeremy-Pruitt-tennessee.pdf

UT is a state institution, so subject to state freedom of information laws. So most documents concerning the operations, finances, and budget of the university are publicly available, or will be made so if you ask for them.

To answer your question: Many (most?) employment contracts the world over have termination clauses. Things the employer and employee agree would give one or the other the right to break the contract (quit, or be fired). Being fired for cause usually, in most employment contracts, comes with the stipulation that the employer owes the employee nothing as a result.

And yes, there were in fact details of his contract that he didn't fulfill, and other details that he broke. Things like, "thou shalt not cheat and commit NCAA violations." Here's one example of the stipulations he broke, straight from the "for cause" part of his contract:

Pruitt's UT contract said:
Conduct or omission(s) by Coach that constitutes a Level I or Level II violation of one or more Governing Athletic Rules; or conduct or omission(s) by Coach that is likely to lead to a NCAA finding of a Level I or Level II violation of one or more Governing Athletic Rules.
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So to answer your final question, who knows? We all do. Including you now. :)

Go Vols!


EDIT: wait...were you asking about Pruitt, or Meyer? Both are the subjects of this thread....
 
#30
#30
VFL-82-JP said:
Brother, you have just been hit by the Baader–Meinhof phenomenon.

Look it up. It is interesting. And is 100% what just happened to you.

[hint: Tennessee wasn't setting any new precedent, and the Jaguars' decision likely had absolutely nothing to do with a "Tennessee example"]
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You bring up a very valid point; however, I disagree with you to an extent. Baader-Meinhof supposes that the subject in question begins to repeatedly notice what was absent before the epiphany. I can only think off four coaches in the last 40 years that were fired for cause and did not get paid.

Fist, lets go down to the land of Alabamastan and take a look at "coach" Mike Price. Strippers and ho ho hos. No dough dough dough.

How about the stalwart of integrity and loyalty, Bobby Petrino. Former Arkansas volleyball player turned University employee being dumped off a Harley-Davidson and false truths given to the State po po. No buyout.

We have our own Pruitt who intimated UT would suffer generational pain, preverbal "gnashing of teeth", from a bombshell lawsuit if he didn't get paid by 10/31/2021. I believe the official UT response was "bring it!"

Most recently we have Urban Liar, Urban Legend, shepherd of criminals, slayer of cougars, molester of the unsuspecting, haver of the worst health problems ever but only when the kitchen got too hot. Sorry, no cash for you.

Lady's man Hugh Freeze doesn't count. He resigned.

What IS surprising to me though, is the list of those that got paid. Here is a small sampling:

Bobby Petrino (Louisville - AFTER Arkansas)
Derek Dooley
Butch Jones
Will Muschamp
Mike Shula
Lane Kiffin
Steve Sarkisian
Kevin Sumlin (times 2?)
Charlie Weis
Derek Mason
Gus Malzahn
Lovie Smith
Mike Bobo
Larry Fedora etc.

Just a few college football buyouts over the past few years. So, UT is not the first and obviously is not the last to fire a coach for cause and not pay them. I will say; however, that is an EXREMELY rare bird.
 
#32
#32
Tman44 said:
You bring up a very valid point; however, I disagree with you to an extent. Baader-Meinhof supposes that the subject in question begins to repeatedly notice what was absent before the epiphany. I can only think off four coaches in the last 40 years that were fired for cause and did not get paid.

Fist, lets go down to the land of Alabamastan and take a look at "coach" Mike Price. Strippers and ho ho hos. No dough dough dough.

How about the stalwart of integrity and loyalty, Bobby Petrino. Former Arkansas volleyball player turned University employee being dumped off a Harley-Davidson and false truths given to the State po po. No buyout.

We have our own Pruitt who intimated UT would suffer generational pain, preverbal "gnashing of teeth", from a bombshell lawsuit if he didn't get paid by 10/31/2021. I believe the official UT response was "bring it!"

Most recently we have Urban Liar, Urban Legend, shepherd of criminals, slayer of cougars, molester of the unsuspecting, haver of the worst health problems ever but only when the kitchen got too hot. Sorry, no cash for you.

Lady's man Hugh Freeze doesn't count. He resigned.

What IS surprising to me though, is the list of those that got paid. Here is a small sampling:

Bobby Petrino (Louisville - AFTER Arkansas)
Derek Dooley
Butch Jones
Will Muschamp
Mike Shula
Lane Kiffin
Steve Sarkisian
Kevin Sumlin (times 2?)
Charlie Weis
Derek Mason
Gus Malzahn
Lovie Smith
Mike Bobo
Larry Fedora etc.

Just a few college football buyouts over the past few years. So, UT is not the first and obviously is not the last to fire a coach for cause and not pay them. I will say; however, that is an EXREMELY rare bird.
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Okay, let's put ourselves in the shoes of (a) the chief of Human Resources Department and/or (b) the senior Attorney of the Jacksonville Jaguars organization. Sure, we're talking about a football team. But we're also talking about a significant business organization, one of the heavier hitters in the city of Jacksonville. One that has to abide by federal law, but also Florida state law and any applicable ordinances of Duval county and the city.

So if you're that HR Chief, or that senior Attorney, you are not going to limit your understanding of best practices solely to football teams. For one reason, there are only 31 others like you, far too few to provide a reasonable number of examples of what works well and what doesn't across a myriad of personnel actions. On top of which, only a couple of those 31 are in the same state as you, and none are in the same county or city. So you need more examples of what works and what doesn't. So you cast your net widely.

One of the places you are very unlikely to cast your net is a college in the state of Tennessee. For one thing, completely different jurisdiction. For another, public institution (state land grand university) versus private business (NFL franchise); these are two very different types of organization, for all that they both sell football tickets. There are a number of other reasons you wouldn't look in that direction for examples of what to do, but those are two of the big ones.

Local corporate businesses like Firehouse Subs, CSX Corporation, Fidelity National, and Landstar (all HQ'd in Jacksonville) would be far more fitting counterparts.

So the idea that the Jaguars' HR Chief and top lawyer are following a precedent set by the University of Tennessee is pretty close to ridiculous. It simply makes no sense.

But...now shift perspective. You're an outside observer, perhaps a guy on VN.com named TNnative, and you have very limited exposure to firings for cause in the wide world. In fact, the only time you've seen it happen in recent memory is when UT fired Pruitt, and then all of a sudden, never having noticed the practice before (though it is quite common throughout the US), you see it AGAIN, down in Jacksonville! And both of them involve football coaches! You might think somehow that the two incidents are linked. Simply because of frequency bias. Also known as the Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon.

tl;dr -- HR actions don't live in isolation inside the realm of football; examples abound in all walks of life; many of these non-football examples make a lot more sense for the Jaguars to use as a template than something that happened up in Tennessee.
 
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#33
#33
The Original Fade said:
The complete failure and multitude of gaffes that will stain his career forever couldn’t happen to a better person than Meyer. He was mocked mercilessly from day one by everyone in the Jags organization, and I loved every minute of it.
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This is the way.

Meyer is and has been a stain on his profession for years.

He just got away with it because he could ride his talented players to a lot of wins in college.
 
#35
#35
madbamahater said:
I am not an attorney. Maybe someone can answer this. I'm guessing that the general public doesn't know the nuts and bolts of his contract. If you break a contractual agreement, does that make you subject to a firing with cause? Perhaps there were details of his contract, he either didn't fulfill or simple broke an agreement? Who knows....
Click to expand...

Florida is an “at-will” employment state, meaning employers or employees can terminate employment at any time and without any advance warning. That could make it tougher for Meyer to prove he was wrongly fired or should be owed the remainder of his contract.

AP source: Jags fired Meyer for cause, don't intend to pay
 
#37
#37
TNnative said:
Of course not, butchna, you know better. But in the coaching profession? In most cases, even the most incompetent coaches still have gotten their contracted buyout. But not at UT, and now an NFL team seems to be following the same precedence.
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Brother, it’s “precedent.” And firing for cause has been commonplace in business for as long as I can remember.
 
#38
#38
VFL-82-JP said:
Okay, let's put ourselves in the shoes of (a) the chief of Human Resources Department and/or (b) the senior Attorney of the Jacksonville Jaguars organization. Sure, we're talking about a football team. But we're also talking about a significant business organization, one of the heavier hitters in the city of Jacksonville. One that has to abide by federal law, but also Florida state law and any applicable ordinances of Duval county and the city.

So if you're that HR Chief, or that senior Attorney, you are not going to limit your understanding of best practices solely to football teams. For one reason, there are only 31 others like you, far too few to provide a reasonable number of examples of what works well and what doesn't across a myriad of personnel actions. On top of which, only a couple of those 31 are in the same state as you, and none are in the same county or city. So you need more examples of what works and what doesn't. So you cast your net widely.

One of the places you are very unlikely to cast your net is a college in the state of Tennessee. For one thing, completely different jurisdiction. For another, public institution (state land grand university) versus private business (NFL franchise); these are two very different types of organization, for all that they both sell football tickets. There are a number of other reasons you wouldn't look in that direction for examples of what to do, but those are two of the big ones.

Local corporate businesses like Firehouse Subs, CSX Corporation, Fidelity National, and Landstar (all HQ'd in Jacksonville) would be far more fitting counterparts.

So the idea that the Jaguars' HR Chief and top lawyer are following a precedent set by the University of Tennessee is pretty close to ridiculous. It simply makes no sense.

But...now shift perspective. You're an outside observer, perhaps a guy on VN.com named TNnative, and you have very limited exposure to firings for cause in the wide world. In fact, the only time you've seen it happen in recent memory is when UT fired Pruitt, and then all of a sudden, never having noticed the practice before (though it is quite common throughout the US), you see it AGAIN, down in Jacksonville! And both of them involve football coaches! You might think somehow that the two incidents are linked. Simply because of frequency bias. Also known as the Baader-Meinhoff phenomenon.

tl;dr -- HR actions don't live in isolation inside the realm of football; examples abound in all walks of life; many of these non-football examples make a lot more sense for the Jaguars to use as a template than something that happened up in Tennessee.
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OK, I think I see what I was missing. As a business owner and an employer, it is exceptionable for me to let someone go WITHOUT case. It can be very expensive, even when you do not have employee contracts with severance included. Then you as a business owner end up paying the State more than any money the employee received in unemployment benefits ( I must say I haven't let anyone go since COVID began, so things may be different). So I did not even think that someone would have the idea of that being rare in the world of employment in totality. I would think that aside from football, the majority of people who are let go (not in a lay-off situation) would be fired for cause. You must admit though, the trend is opposite and sparce in college and pro football coaching.
 
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#39
#39
orangefloyd said:
Some of you will argue about anything. Give it a rest.
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Don't see much argument in this thread.

There's a difference between discussion, debate, and argument, right? Discussion is informal, relaxed. Debate is more formalized, with specific rules in place. And argument involves heated emotions, anger. They all typically involve differing points of view (disagreement) to one extent or another, and usually (though not always) involve trying to convince others to see things your way. Otherwise, they'd be very boring discussions/debates/arguments.

What's happening here seems to be almost purely discussion. No formal rules, but also no evident anger.

Now, there are definitions of "argument" and "arguing" that involve no emotion. Like a lawyer "arguing his case" in a courtroom. But then it's just a synonym for discussion or debate.

And I assume you're not asking us to give discussions a rest...us being on, you know, a chat website. All we do here is discuss. And occasionally argue. Heh.

So why are you so sensitive to disagreement that you see discussions as arguments?
 
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#40
#40
#41
#41
tpsdave said:
I really doubt if what UT did has anything to do with Jacksonville.
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Not much. There are some stark differences. Except for that not paying a buyout part.`But there is good news for them both. Neither will have to pay income tax on their buyout. So there is that too.
 
#42
#42
Tman44 said:
You bring up a very valid point; however, I disagree with you to an extent. Baader-Meinhof supposes that the subject in question begins to repeatedly notice what was absent before the epiphany. I can only think off four coaches in the last 40 years that were fired for cause and did not get paid.

Fist, lets go down to the land of Alabamastan and take a look at "coach" Mike Price. Strippers and ho ho hos. No dough dough dough.

How about the stalwart of integrity and loyalty, Bobby Petrino. Former Arkansas volleyball player turned University employee being dumped off a Harley-Davidson and false truths given to the State po po. No buyout.

We have our own Pruitt who intimated UT would suffer generational pain, preverbal "gnashing of teeth", from a bombshell lawsuit if he didn't get paid by 10/31/2021. I believe the official UT response was "bring it!"

Most recently we have Urban Liar, Urban Legend, shepherd of criminals, slayer of cougars, molester of the unsuspecting, haver of the worst health problems ever but only when the kitchen got too hot. Sorry, no cash for you.

Lady's man Hugh Freeze doesn't count. He resigned.

What IS surprising to me though, is the list of those that got paid. Here is a small sampling:

Bobby Petrino (Louisville - AFTER Arkansas)
Derek Dooley
Butch Jones
Will Muschamp
Mike Shula
Lane Kiffin
Steve Sarkisian
Kevin Sumlin (times 2?)
Charlie Weis
Derek Mason
Gus Malzahn
Lovie Smith
Mike Bobo
Larry Fedora etc.

Just a few college football buyouts over the past few years. So, UT is not the first and obviously is not the last to fire a coach for cause and not pay them. I will say; however, that is an EXREMELY rare bird.
Click to expand...

Thank you Tman. And that was exactly all I was saying too.
 
#45
#45
This should always be the case. These contracts are ridiculous. Guys make millions of dollars a year. And often they’re totally different incompetent at the job. So then they get fired and get paid a few more years worth of of income as a reward for being so damn bad. Crazy. Butch Jones and Jeremy Pruitt we’re both absolutely terrible at their jobs and got more than virtually any of us will ever make
 
#48
#48
With Meyer, maybe the Jags used the morals clause in the contract (Ohio incident with the woman not his wife) or the allegations of abuse (Josh Lambo) as their rationale to fire for cause...
 
#50
#50
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