Russia brings the fight to ISIS in Syria!!!

#552
#552
volprof said:
And let me ask you a question: would it make any difference to you if there was or wasn't?

Considering your reactions to ample proof of Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine, the cruise missile debacle in Iran, and to Russian strikes killing civilians on the ground (and I never said they were intentional, as you suggested I said in a post above), I'd say it wouldn't make any difference what was produced.
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There is no ample proof of missiles hitting iran or killing civilians. If there was, it would go a lot farther than some made up blogspot in Iran, don't you think?

The Russians have been transparent in their ooerations, showing drone footage of many strikes. They've been transparent in their request to work alongside the US (which was denied) and the FSA( which was denied)

Here's a convo between Ahton Carter and John McCain...


The committee, chaired by Arizona Republican John McCain, spent almost three hours grilling Carter and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Joseph Dunford, over US strategy in the Middle East. McCain blamed the current situation in the region for what he said was the Obama administration’s strategy of trying to extract the US from the Middle East, creating a power vacuum exploited by IS, Iran and Russia.

Carter attempted to dodge the lawmakers’ insistence that the US ought to defend the Syrian rebels who has been trained and equipped both by the Pentagon and the CIA:

McCain: Russian aircraft are bombing moderate Syrian forces in Syria while we have deconflicted. Do you believe we should be protecting those young people?

Carter: We have an obligation to protect – we stated that.

McCain: Are we protecting them?

Carter: They have not come under attack by either Assad or Russian forces.

McCain: I'm asking about moderate Syrian forces, someone that we train and equip, moderate Syrian forces that are now being bombed by Russia-

Carter: With respect to the title 10 forces – they have not come under attack...

McCain: None of the moderate forces that some of whom we trained become under attack by Russia from the air? It's fascinating.

When Carter carefully avoided pledging aid to those forces backed by the CIA and several US allies in the region in their fight against the government in Damascus, McCain accused him of making a “distinction without a difference.”
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#553
#553
Pacer92 said:
There is no ample proof of missiles hitting iran or killing civilians. If there was, it would go a lot farther than some made up blogspot in Iran, don't you think?

The Russians have been transparent in their ooerations, showing drone footage of many strikes. They've been transparent in their request to work alongside the US (which was denied) and the FSA( which was denied)
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Blogs from Iran? You claimed you read those links; you obviously didn't. Those were no blogs; they were local news stations.

I know it's difficult watching your god, who you previously thought infallible, stumbling and bumbling around. It's hard, but it will be okay. I assure you that rational analysis is not the Satan and boogieman that the little boy god has long made it out to be. It's actually quite rewarding.
 
#554
#554
Pacer92 said:
There is no ample proof of missiles hitting iran or killing civilians. If there was, it would go a lot farther than some made up blogspot in Iran, don't you think?

The Russians have been transparent in their ooerations, showing drone footage of many strikes. They've been transparent in their request to work alongside the US (which was denied) and the FSA( which was denied)

Here's a convo between Ahton Carter and John McCain...
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if you are saying that we are saying that the falling missiles killed civilians in Iran, that is not what we are saying. IIRC it was a goat. so not embarrassing on a killing level but embarrassing like us having to hitch a ride to the ISS on Russian equipment. and since the missile falling on Iran story, i have seen nothing from any source about more missiles coming from the Caspian Sea. If it was so effective why stop?

also plenty of footage of US bombs dropping on targets.

and which request to work along side the US? The one where they were asking for actionable intel on the FSA locations after admitting they were actively targeting the FSA? Because I wonder why we wouldn't give them that information.
 
#555
#555
volprof said:
Blogs from Iran? You claimed you read those links; you obviously didn't. Those were no blogs; they were local news stations.

I know it's difficult watching your god, who you previously thought infallible, stumbling and bumbling around. It's hard, but it will be okay. I assure you that rational analysis is not the Satan and boogieman that the little boy god has long made it out to be. It's actually quite rewarding.
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What's rewarding is watching you resort to your hate. Putin has made transparent things even more transparent. Our government support of beheading freaks, that you support...
 
#556
#556
LouderVol said:
if you are saying that we are saying that the falling missiles killed civilians in Iran, that is not what we are saying. IIRC it was a goat. so not embarrassing on a killing level but embarrassing like us having to hitch a ride to the ISS on Russian equipment. and since the missile falling on Iran story, i have seen nothing from any source about more missiles coming from the Caspian Sea. If it was so effective why stop?

also plenty of footage of US bombs dropping on targets.

and which request to work along side the US? The one where they were asking for actionable intel on the FSA locations after admitting they were actively targeting the FSA? Because I wonder why we wouldn't give them that information.
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Obviously you didn't read the recent quotes of Carter and McCain that debunks anything in your last paragraph. Just a few post above this...
 
#557
#557
Pacer92 said:
Obviously you didn't read the recent quotes of Carter and McCain that debunks anything in your last paragraph. Just a few post above this...
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targeting doesn't not equal bombing. and it was not so long ago that the Russians were going after all terrorists and weren't making distinctions. so again i would be very suspect about giving them information of our "friends" over there right after Russia said they were trying to take out all non-Assad forces. the russians have slightly changed their story but I still would not want my location known to the Russians if I was them.
 
#558
#558
Pacer92 said:
What's rewarding is watching you resort to your hate. Putin has made transparent things even more transparent. Our government support of beheading freaks, that you support...
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Something I don't understand about you is your willingness to buy hook, line, and sinker everything that the boy god and his Kremlin heaven say.

It's clear that you have critical faculties. That's abundantly clear. Yet, for whatever reasons, you only exercise these faculties when it comes time to the US/NATO/Israel/West/etc., sometimes so much so that it becomes morbid, as with your thinking concerning September 11 and ISIS (to name just a couple).

At no point do you ever exercise the same faculties you're clearly capable of when it comes to Russia/Iran/China/Assad/etc. (basically everyone that you consider to be on the opposite side of the above).

Why?

I can understand all of your criticism of the US, for instance. I can even understand your quack theories on September 11, although I strongly disagree. But I don't understand how a man who carries himself on here as a self-purported "critical thinker" can so consistently give a pass to everything Russia (as the primary example) does and be so uncritical, to put it bluntly, when it comes to the Russian narrative.

Is it the latest manifestation of some sort of privileged Westerner's self-loathing or something? Or is it just as simple as some sort of childhood fascination with the exotic, with basically everything that's different from the familiar? I really want to know. It's an interesting cultural phenomenon that I've noticed in the West over the past couple of decades especially.
 
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#559
#559
volprof said:
Something I don't understand about you is your willingness to buy hook, line, and sinker everything that the boy god and his Kremlin heaven say.

It's clear that you have critical faculties. That's abundantly clear. Yet, for whatever reasons, you only exercise these faculties when it comes time to the US/NATO/Israel/West/etc., sometimes so much so that it becomes morbid, as with your thinking concerning September 11 and ISIS (to name just a couple).

At no point do you ever exercise the same faculties you're clearly capable of when it comes to Russia/Iran/China/Assad/etc. (basically everyone that you consider to be on the opposite side of the above).

Why?

I can understand all of your criticism of the US, for instance. I can even understand your quack theories on September 11, although I strongly disagree. But I don't understand how a man who carries himself on here as a self-purported "critical thinker" can so consistently give a pass to everything Russia (as the primary example) does and be so uncritical, to put it bluntly, when it comes to the Russian narrative.

Is it the latest manifestation of some sort of privileged Westerner's self-loathing or something? Or is it just as simple as some sort of childhood fascination with the exotic, with basically everything that's different from the familiar? I really want to know. It's an interesting cultural phenomenon that I've noticed in the West over the past couple of decades especially.
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That's a good question...

Not sure I can verbalize it all quoting a post on VN. I'll try and give a cliffsnotes version since I feel there is sincerity in your request.

Can't exactly pinpoint where it all changed for me. I was raised in a lower middle class, God fearing home. I had all I needed, including a hard working mother and father that provided the necessities, and then some. I took pride in saying the pledge of allegiance and hoisting the American flag as a youngster at school.

As an adolescent I was fascinated with the military. Many generations of my family, including my pops and brothers, were veterans of the wars from America's past. My direct lineage fought in everything going back to the revolutionary war...proud Americans.

My two aspirations growing up were to serve in the military and to play professional baseball. I was an ROTC army ranger in high school. I loved everything about it. But, then there was baseball, which fortunately paid for my college education. I chose that path. I married, had children, and the rest is history.

My path to this point was certainly an evolution, but to clarify when, it all changed for me after 9/11 and the subsequent invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq. I think the combination of our dismissal of UN reports and the fact that I love to read about war history, got me to thinking outside of the box. Propaganda is another subject that is fascinating. All great empires have employed such techniques and we are no exception. I think I overcame the ability to exonerate our own government just because I was a citizen. And let's not excuse social media, which was unavailable to me as a young person, has changed the way we look at everything. Everything is now based on instant, emotional reaction instead of critical thinking. All governments exploit this luxury today, the US and Russia both. Lets face it, there is no greater weapon than demonizing our enemies in today's world. It's instant and immediate information which is deemed truth without question. It's like directing a bad rumor floating around. We can take it at face value without any proof, or we can get to the bottom of it and find out for ourselves that 90% of the time rumors are much exaggerated or totally fabricated.

I'll end on the fact that just because one questions their governments intentions doesn't make them a traitor or the such. To the contrary actually. I think(not sure honestly) that Thomas Jefferson said its our duty to question and hold our government accountable....our duty as Americans.

TMI I'm sure, but now you know...
 
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#560
#560
Now, see, that all makes sense to me. I think your actions sometimes directly contradict some of what you have just said, namely in your quickness to reduce practically every crisis or ordeal on Earth to American duplicity, but your point is duly taken. I still don't think this addresses why exactly you are often so incautious when it comes to the Russian portrayal of events.

Regardless, American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War, but particularly during the Bush years, leaves much room for caution, skepticism, and suspicion. No doubt.

So you played baseball for UT?
 
#561
#561
volprof said:
Now, see, that all makes sense to me. I think your actions sometimes directly contradict some of what you have just said, namely in your quickness to reduce practically every crisis or ordeal on Earth to American duplicity, but your point is duly taken. I still don't think this addresses why exactly you are often so incautious when it comes to the Russian portrayal of events.

Regardless, American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War, but particularly during the Bush years, leaves much room for caution, skepticism, and suspicion. No doubt.

So you played baseball for UT?
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I think the reason I buy into the Russian version more is because I think they portray a truer picture of events. It's really that simple. Western media makes Putin out to be a "czarist" ex-KGB agent that wants to bring back Soviet glory. That is the narrative and I don't see it that way. To me, Putin has resurrected a struggling country that was full of corruption. He's made them matter again and the Russian people love him for that.

Russia is, and should be a player in world events, especially those that are close to home or involve their allies. The west is still pushing the cold war rhetoric when Putin responds to western provocations. It's an information war that started back in the 50's and never has ended for us, only worse imo.

And to answer your question...I played baseball at the Univ. of Tennessee @ Martin, not UT@K.

Question for you is why does the western media try and portray Russia and Putin as aggressors and bullies on Every occasion, when we have been the global bully for decades now?
 
#562
#562
#566
#566
#567
#567
Grand Vol said:
Direct action is an ambiguous term. That can be anything from SOF type raids to full on conventional infantry employment.

I would support SOF type activities since they are far more precise in their employment than drone strikes. Far riskier, but the end result is certainly better.
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I wouldn't have a problem with SOF activity either, if it's to help eliminate ISIS. If it's to help "moderates" fight Assad, I'm not. That's a very delicate line when it's obvious Putin is there to defend Assad...
 
#568
#568
Pacer92 said:
I think the reason I buy into the Russian version more is because I think they portray a truer picture of events. It's really that simple. Western media makes Putin out to be a "czarist" ex-KGB agent that wants to bring back Soviet glory. That is the narrative and I don't see it that way. To me, Putin has resurrected a struggling country that was full of corruption. He's made them matter again and the Russian people love him for that.

Russia is, and should be a player in world events, especially those that are close to home or involve their allies. The west is still pushing the cold war rhetoric when Putin responds to western provocations. It's an information war that started back in the 50's and never has ended for us, only worse imo.

And to answer your question...I played baseball at the Univ. of Tennessee @ Martin, not UT@K.

Question for you is why does the western media try and portray Russia and Putin as aggressors and bullies on Every occasion, when we have been the global bully for decades now?
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Because our govt. is our *******s, just like Putin is Russia's *******. Just like Lane Kiffin was our *******. We all knew how scummy he was, but he was still our scumbag, so we supported him. I agree with you that our media can often be very uncritical of US actions and that it can often be reductive in explaining those of Russia; however, I don't see our media as the propagandistic "rah-rah" sidelines cheerleader in which you often do. Is it biased? Absolutely. Is it a cheerleader? I'm not so sure.

I think Russia should be an important player in global politics as well, and I don't have any qualms about this. I don't necessarily think the "Russian model" (of regional spheres of influence and multipolarism) is a preferable model to the liberal one that the US has spearheaded the past 70 years and has kept the world from a major war during that time (in contrast to the averages before the order was established), but Russia does offer a sort of counter-balance that can ground US policy and make it much more level-headed and pragmatic instead of the unadulterated combination of well-intentioned idealism and malicious geed it's been since the fall of the Soviet Union.

I love the Russian people (my avatar is a picture of the Don Cossacks; figured it was time to let Geronimo and the gang take a well-deserved break), and I love Russian culture, history, philosophy, etc. What I don't like, however, is the Russian government, which makes the corruption and lies perpetuated by our own government look like mere child's play. Put this way, there's a reason why roughly 300,000 Russians a year are applying for foreign visas and/or citizenship, and that number is only growing. There's a reason why my Russian student (who I've mentioned a time or two here) has stayed here, has become an American citizen, and has no intentions of ever going back.

There's a quip that the late Robert Solomon, a professor at Texas-Austin, often made about Socrates. He said that Socrates is often distinguished from the Sophists, his philosophy being a pursuit of true knowledge while the latter were merely rhetoricians looking for patronage. However, Solomon said, Socrates was not only a Sophist; he was, in fact, the best of them.

Putin is not only an oligarch; he's the best of them. The one supreme thief who bested the others by becoming their boss and using the tools of their own trade against them.
 
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#569
#569
Pacer92 said:
I agree. American lives are worth more than overthrowing regimes. We should know this from the Iraq debacle. No way!
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I would be 10 times more comfortable if we were only operating on the ground in Iraq. but still would not like it.
 
#570
#570
While I've seen enough American ground operations in that part of the world to last me 100 lifetimes, I think the following measures would be highly beneficial since the Iraqi army still seems incapable:

1. Concentrate operations in Iraq. Make an agreement (even behind close doors) with Iraqi govt. that US forces will not leave Iraq for at least 5 years, at which it can be renewed each year after.

2. Send in 10,000-15,000 initial troops with objective to push ISIS out of Iraq, secure the border, and gain more time to ensure Iraq can work and that it doesn't fall into Iranian hands, which does no one but Iran any good because it will only perpetuate the violence and sectarian tensions there.

3. Only allow limited special ops in Syria to combat ISIS. Under no circumstances should regular US ground forces fight in that country.

4. Keep riding with the FSA, despite all its imperfections. It's not perfect by any means, but it is the most reliable actor in the theater to neutralize both Assad and ISIS.

5. With FSA support and with highly concentrated special ops, backed by American air power, neutralize the ISIS threat along the Iraqi and Jordanian borders and along Kurdish-held territories.

6. Let Russia bleed itself figuring out how to handle the rest of the mess. God bless them, but there's no solution to that mess. Assad certainly isn't it, I can tell you that much.

Basically, our objectives (at the moment) should be to get ISIS out of Iraq, ensure Iraqi stability without Iranian meddling, and neutralize the ISIS/jihadist threat along the Iraqi border and Kurdish-held territory. This strategy of neutralization also keeps us out of getting mired in the Assad quagmire.
 
#571
#571
LouderVol said:
I would be 10 times more comfortable if we were only operating on the ground in Iraq. but still would not like it.
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I don't think we will see ground forces in syria. I believe the investment now is to ride the FSA come hell or high water.

I'm just curious to know how/if Russia responds. I believe the Russian defense ministry was quoted earlier this month saying the air campaign would only last 3-4 months. Then what?
 
#572
#572
Pacer92 said:
I don't think we will see ground forces in syria. I believe the investment now is to ride the FSA come hell or high water.

I'm just curious to know how/if Russia responds. I believe the Russian defense ministry was quoted earlier this month saying the air campaign would only last 3-4 months. Then what?
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This is rational, more "objective" you. I like rational, more "objective" you.

Stick around for a long time, please.
 
#573
#573
volprof said:
Because our govt. is our *******s, just like Putin is Russia's *******. Just like Lane Kiffin was our *******. We all knew how scummy he was, but he was still our scumbag, so we supported him. I agree with you that our media can often be very uncritical of US actions and that it can often be reductive in explaining those of Russia; however, I don't see our media as the propagandistic "rah-rah" sidelines cheerleader in which you often do. Is it biased? Absolutely. Is it a cheerleader? I'm not so sure.

I think Russia should be an important player in global politics as well, and I don't have any qualms about this. I don't necessarily think the "Russian model" (of regional spheres of influence and multipolarism) is a preferable model to the liberal one that the US has spearheaded the past 70 years and has kept the world from a major war during that time (in contrast to the averages before the order was established), but Russia does offer a sort of counter-balance that can ground US policy and make it much more level-headed and pragmatic instead of the unadulterated combination of well-intentioned idealism and malicious geed it's been since the fall of the Soviet Union.

I love the Russian people (my avatar is a picture of the Don Cossacks), and I love Russian culture, history, philosophy, etc. What I don't like, however, is the Russian government, which makes the corruption and lies perpetuated by our own government look like mere child's play. Put this way, there's a reason why roughly 300,000 Russians a year are applying for foreign visas and/or citizenship, and that number is only growing. There's a reason why my Russian student (who I've mentioned a time or two here) has stayed here, has become an American citizen, and has no intentions of ever going back.

There's a quip that the late Robert Solomon, a professor at Texas-Austin, often made about Socrates. He said that Socrates is often distinguished from the Sophists, his philosophy being a pursuit of true knowledge while the latter were merely rhetoricians looking for patronage. However, Solomon said, Socrates was not only a Sophist; he was, in fact, the best of them.

Putin is not only an oligarch; he's the best of them. The one supreme thief who bested the others by becoming their boss and using the tools of their own trade against them.
Click to expand...

We just see it different. I put more emphasis on past actions(since the collapse of the Soviet union) and not on hot air, which is what we've been reading the majority of the time about Russia and Putin. Russia isn't the one going around the world policing everything and everybody. Do they have geostrategic interests? Of course they do. We have 100's of military bases all over the globe. NATO has been encroaching ever since the collapse of the USSR and are constantly beating war drums if Putin so much as looks to the west. Quit beating the man down because he has a set...because he refuses western encroachment and takes up for his allies. Wouldn't you expect the same from your president whether you were American or Russian?

Let's quit demonizing someone for doing what we do, but to a much lesser degree..
 
#574
#574
the issue with helping the Kurds in Syria is eventually if Assad wins out over the rest he is going to come knocking on their door. And I bet the Kurds are going to be even more unwilling now to listen to him than they were before.
 
#575
#575
US Neocons Ready to Risk Lives of American Soldiers in Syria ? Ron Paul


"Instead of taking the appropriate lessons from that failure and getting out of the 'regime change' business, he announced the opposite. The US would not only escalate its 'train and equip' program by removing the requirement that fighters be vetted for extremist ideology, but according to the Secretary the US military would for the first time become directly and overtly involved in combat in Syria and Iraq," Dr. Paul emphasized in his article for the Institute of Peace and Prosperity.
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"I cannot condemn in strong enough terms this ill-advised US military escalation in the Middle East. Whoever concluded that it is a good idea to send US troops into an area already being bombed by Russian military forces should really be relieved of duty," Ron Paul underscored.
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"This is not our war. It is time for the American people to rise up and demand that the Obama Administration bring our military home from this increasingly dangerous no-win confrontation. We must speak out now, before it is too late!" Dr. Paul concluded.
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He's right. Its time the American people demanded better. Here we are, a country with 40 million able bodies citizens not in the job force, over 600k homeless on the streets, an education system that goes well beyond sub-par, infastructure that is collapsing and a federal deficit of over 18 trillion dollars. With all these problems, we still manage a way to spend 9.1 million dollars a day in finacing terrorist under the guise of "regime change".

It's past time we stop fighting wars that make money for the 1% by forcing change in countries where we can financially exploit its resources and people. We don't make the world safer, we cause destruction and death. The only thing we get out of these wars is kids coming home in body bags and I'm ****ing fed up with it. The leadership in this country is a damn joke and I feel sorry for the ones who can't see that...
 
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