Roster Breakdown CJP and Butch

[BigOrangeTrain]

Here is the thing. If it was a breakdown here and there, I would see that. But, in our case, we have breakdowns in nearly every position group on both sides of the ball. Including the inability to substitute and line up properly.

We have a lot of 4-5 star players on this team. You cannot convince me that they all forgot how to play once they got to Knoxville.

Not can you convince me that these coaches forgot how to coach. It works both ways. Both are to blame.

 

[VolforFootball]

Pruitt is learning one the job. Or forgetting on the job.

 

[Chicago Vols 14]

Not can you convince me that these coaches forgot how to coach. It works both ways. Both are to blame.

It is a lot easier to fire one coach then 85 scholarship players.

 

[99gator]

Not can you convince me that these coaches forgot how to coach. It works both ways. Both are to blame.

I'll post something that I don't think many have.

Why is there this assumption that they are good coaches?

Will Friend, Brian Neidermeyer, David Johnson, Chris Weinke, Tee Martin. This is the offensive staff outside of Chaney.

I'm sorry, it's not an impressive group.

 

[RollerVol]

I'll post something that I don't think many have.

Why is there this assumption that they are good coaches?

Will Friend, Brian Neidermeyer, David Johnson, Chris Weinke, Tee Martin. This is the offensive staff outside of Chaney.

I'm sorry, it's not an impressive group.

in playing devil's advocate I'll pose: what have they done to continue to coach at UT...they're all learning on the job it seems...firing may be what a lot of fans want but doubt Coach Pruitt gets fired anytime soon...possibly there may be a position change or two...to me Coach Pruitt is playing CEO this year versus last year when he was totally into everybody's job, especially defense...he was the motivating force...this year he's put the onus on the coaches he hired to succeed for fail...to me that's the biggest different from last year to this year...

GO BIG ORANGE!

 

[EZE]

Both are to blame.

Now we can agree.

 

[Orange_Crush]

It's a little bit of everything, but the main thing holding us back is qb play. The defense hasn't been great, but good enough to win with an offense that can score. The issue is poor execution on defense, followed by youth.

Let's say I take you hunting, put you up in a tree stand, tell you what time that deer will step out and from where. Not only that, but I make sure you know how to shoot and show you exactly where to aim for a proper kill. All you have to do is shoot the deer when it shows up. Eventually the deer comes out, comes in to you on a string and you miss your shot. Is that your fault or my fault?

Which one is making several million dollars a year to deliver venison?

 

[Dudleys87]

Yes. A coach can only do so much. Look at the Clemson/UNC game. The disparity in talent is gargantuan. But what happened? TL was off on many throws. The normal extremely stout Clemson defense gave up huge plays they usually dont. The OL didnt play well. Is that on the coaches? No it isnt.

Dsbo is clearly one of the best in the business as is DC Venables. So you think they just all of a sudden forgot how to prepare and call a game? Not a chance. Simply put, the players didnt execute Dabos gameplan as they normally do. If they had, Clemson blows UNC out.

Excellent point.

Coaches can only do so much but it’s up to the player to execute. If they can’t then it falls on the players. Clearly some players are getting it and having success.

 

[AM64]

There is enough talent on this team to be 3-1 at this point and at least 6-6 for the season. All of the OOC games should have been victories, and at least 5 of the 8 SEC opponents are mediocre at best.

Instead, this season is a raging dumpster fire.

Coaching is a failure to this point.

I think the major point is that football is a team sport and most of the players have never played together as a team. The most telling statistic is the 77 scholarship roster. The new NCAA rules are making it really tough for new coaches to catch up. Don't be surprised if the just instituted 25/year thing gets modified ... otherwise with transfers, graduation, and natural attrition, some teams may never get fully up to strength. It's an unintended consequence of trying to keep the current roster rich (like Bama) from getting richer, but a massive failure otherwise. The biggest knock on Pruitt and the roster is at QB, but JG was according to all the experts going to be one of the best SEC QBs all offseason and there are two fresh backups ... the two seasoned ones that transferred ... blame the transfer rules and laws against slavery.

 

[AM64]

Who id tesponsible for teaching and demanding.executuon? Who is responsible for practice time to ensure execution in game time
..

What four letter institution limits practice and teaching time by the coaches? How does that influence team performance when most players are underclassmen? How does that impact a bunch of experienced (at lower levels) but still newbies from jelling as a team in a sport where teamwork is essential? Open your minds and consider all the additive limitations and possibilities. I'd hate to think that most people evaluating progress or lack of it right now might ever play any part in something important like medical or engineering analysis.

 

[GetYouSomeofThat]

What four letter institution limits practice and teaching time by the coaches? How does that influence team performance when most players are underclassmen? How does that impact a bunch of experienced (at lower levels) but still newbies from jelling as a team in a sport where teamwork is essential? Open your minds and consider all the additive limitations and possibilities. I'd hate to think that most people evaluating progress or lack of it right now might ever play any part in something important like medical or engineering analysis.

And yet other coaches dont need multiple years to impact the culture..just our HC.

 

[volfanhill]

Yes. A coach can only do so much. Look at the Clemson/UNC game. The disparity in talent is gargantuan. But what happened? TL was off on many throws. The normal extremely stout Clemson defense gave up huge plays they usually dont. The OL didnt play well. Is that on the coaches? No it isnt.

Dsbo is clearly one of the best in the business as is DC Venables. So you think they just all of a sudden forgot how to prepare and call a game? Not a chance. Simply put, the players didnt execute Dabos gameplan as they normally do. If they had, Clemson blows UNC out.

One offs happen to any team and coach. The continuous looking like crap, not being in position, and being undisciplined has been happening since Missouri last year.

 

[Thorp32]

So, hearing the back and forth of CJP’s players vs Butch’s players, needing time vs ‘GA State!’, and lack of talent vs. ‘GA State!’, I looked at this article:
Roster Analysis: Makeup of Vols' Team After More Transfers | RTI

An interesting thing to consider is that of the 77 current scholarship players, only 16 of them (20% of the roster) have definitely spent more time under Butch than they have under CJP. True juniors and younger and transfers all have more time with CJP. Redshirt juniors and true seniors are approaching equal time between the two coaches. At the end of this season, redshirt seniors will finish their careers this year as the only players with more time under Butch than CJP.

As far as players signed by Pruitt vs Butch, CJP signed 45 and Butch signed 32. Pruitt signed 58% of the roster, Jones 42%. Pruitt signed 20 out of the 34 (59%) 4 and 5 star players. 3 star and below are about 50/50 between the two coaches.

4 and 5 stars constitute 44% of the roster. According to this article: Blue-Chip Ratio 2019 , only 20 teams have a blue chip ratio of 38% or higher.

I’m sure each side of the argument will use these numbers to support their stance, just wanted to get some numbers out there so we can all have the same starting point. What do you think when you see these numbers?

Thanks for sharing. IMO the TN brand alone would get any HC 1 to 2 5 star players a year regardless

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

One offs happen to any team and coach. The continuous looking like crap, not being in position, and being undisciplined has been happening since Missouri last year.

So why cant the players execute better? Why dont they know what position to be in? Why do they look undisciplined? I guess you wanna blame that all on coaching? Sorry thats not gonna fly. Players have to share the blame.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Thanks for sharing. IMO the TN brand alone would get any HC 1 to 2 5 star players a year regardless

15+ years ago that would be the case

 

[volfanhill]

So why cant the players execute better? Why dont they know what position to be in? Why do they look undisciplined? I guess you wanna blame that all on coaching? Sorry thats not gonna fly. Players have to share the blame.

Sure they do. But the buck stops with the head man. When my employees fail then I fail. If they fail at the same things over and over then I am either not an effective teacher, motivator, disciplinarian, or planner.

 

[Thorp32]

15+ years ago that would be the case

Disagree. The fans = The Brand. Why do you think ESPN selected the UT FL game for prime time knowing UT was going to take a woodshed beating? Because of the TV ratings which = Big advertisement $$$$$. Any game on TV involving UT = Big Rating #s. UT's fan base is still top 3 or 4 in country.

 

[Stonewall83]

Here is the thing. If it was a breakdown here and there, I would see that. But, in our case, we have breakdowns in nearly every position group on both sides of the ball. Including the inability to substitute and line up properly.

We have a lot of 4-5 star players on this team. You cannot convince me that they all forgot how to play once they got to Knoxville.

But You can be convinced that 10 coaches with 18 nation championships between them and tons of experience got to Knoxville and forgot how to coach??

 

[EZE]

But You can be convinced that 10 coaches with 18 nation championships between them and tons of experience got to Knoxville and forgot how to coach??

How many games did the head guy coach as the head guy before he got to Knoxville.

 

[Stonewall83]

How many games did the head guy coach as the head guy before he got to Knoxville.

Oh I don’t think Pruitt isn’t shooting himself in the foot often.... I just think it’s far more plausible the same mediocre players who wouldn’t play for any decent team in the south will continue to lose a majority of their games until they are replaced.

 

[EZE]

Oh I don’t think Pruitt isn’t shooting himself in the foot often.... I just think it’s far more plausible the same mediocre players who wouldn’t play for any decent team in the south will continue to lose a majority of their games until they are replaced.

That is fair, but we’re not complaining about losses to good SEC teams. It’s losing to bad OOC teams and Vandy that has raised all kinds of red flags.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Sure they do. But the buck stops with the head man. When my employees fail then I fail. If they fail at the same things over and over then I am either not an effective teacher, motivator, disciplinarian, or planner.

Or you could just have bad employees. It works both ways. Its been stated time and time again. This coaching staff is filled with good coaches who know how to develop players. So they all ofba sudden forgot how to do so? Or is it more along the lines of the players just arent executing. Penalties, bad throws, drops etc. Those are all player mistakes.

Like lining up correctly. Do you think the coaches are telling these guys to line up in a game that they havent practiced? If thats the case, then it's definitely on the coaches. Nut whats the likelihood of that? Does that even make sense? Isnt much more reasonable and logical that the coaches are telling them how to line up and they just arent? I mean do you honestly think guys like Pruitt and Ansley dont know how a defense is supposed to look? Come on man. If you believe that then that's ridiculous.

A captain is only as good as his crew. And vice versa.

 

[Byrddog]

Firing coaches is easy. Accountability is a real problem here both the coaching staff and the players. It is apparent that coaching changes has made no difference. It is impossible to explain how all the 4 and 5 star players have ALL failed. The law of averages says at least half of them should be players that can make a difference but to this point really none have. On the field leadership has been poor for a couple years and that can not be overcome by coaching on the sidelines. Pruitt seems to have the players behind him but the fans are ready to tar and feather him. The way I see it if the players support their coach they will put out their best. And if this is the best they have well there has been a problem in evaluating players for some time by the staff and by those who rate these guys as 4 and 5 star players from High School. A coaching staff can work with talent but they can not waive a magical wand and transform a player who does not have the talent to play at this level. JG is a good example this guy has had every chance under the sun to succeed but other than a slant or pass 5 yards or less is out of his ability. This has allowed opposing teams to shut down what running game they have had.

There should be a coaching search going on now. The problem is finding a coach that can make the team better. Just to replace Pruitt with another dud only prolongs the pain. Candidates are not exactly knocking down the door to come here. We are going to go thru unproven coaches until we luck upon one that can make a difference. This could take years.

 

[volfanhill]

Or you could just have bad employees. It works both ways. Its been stated time and time again. This coaching staff is filled with good coaches who know how to develop players. So they all ofba sudden forgot how to do so? Or is it more along the lines of the players just arent executing. Penalties, bad throws, drops etc. Those are all player mistakes.

Like lining up correctly. Do you think the coaches are telling these guys to line up in a game that they havent practiced? If thats the case, then it's definitely on the coaches. Nut whats the likelihood of that? Does that even make sense? Isnt much more reasonable and logical that the coaches are telling them how to line up and they just arent? I mean do you honestly think guys like Pruitt and Ansley dont know how a defense is supposed to look? Come on man. If you believe that then that's ridiculous.

A captain is only as good as his crew. And vice versa.

Then his job is to bench them. If they aren’t listening play someone who will. Even if they are less talented. Close to 40% of the roster are “his guys.” JG keeping his staring position is a huge indictment on him. There are no bad employees just bad leaders, bc if they are a bad employee, why the f are they on your team still?

 

[SandoVOL]

If Pruitt signed the majority of the roster it means the majority are true sophmore or younger, and now we are back the young team argument, it goes full circle everytime