REFs

#26
#26
OrangeFan1 said:
I've always thought some of the refs were on the payroll. I wish they would do away with these hand check foul calls also. That is so ridiculous that you cannot even touch a player on the opposing team without getting called for a hand check. That is why so many of these games run over into the next game's time slot. It takes forever to play the last few minutes of a game. Did anyone notice Memphis commit that many fouls??? Any conference that isn't Big 10 seems to get the shaft, especially the SEC. You think they are going to call a fair game with Florida's game tomorrow? And yeah, Oden had 4 fouls against Tennessee but yet they had to bring him in at the end to win it for Ohio State. They guy can do nothing other than slam dunk, I am sure. Put him on the perimeter and I bet he couldn't hit the side of a barn. It's a wonder he can shoot foul shots so good. And how he ends up at the foul line so much when he is as big as he is. There is no way these guys that are 6 to 8 inches shorter than him could possibly foul him all the times he was at the line. That is bull. Tennessee will never get the respect they deserve. :no:
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i'll stop well short of making this a full blown conspiracy, but the last three OSU games seem to point to some serious flaws in the officiating in this tourney.
 
#28
#28
I just believe the refs are calling the games too tight and are calling too many fouls, specially on the teams who play OSU.
 
#29
#29
ttrogvol said:
I just believe the refs are calling the games too tight and are calling too many fouls, specially on the teams who play OSU.
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And CBS can never seems to show a replay on these questionable calls. So many times during our game vs. Ohio State I would wonder about a call and a replay would never come.
 
#30
#30
The OSU radio guys were even taking the officials to task (not to this extent, but not far off) on some of the calls against Memphis.
 
#31
#31
Sudden Impact said:
your right CBP summed it up in the Post interview when he talked about conley getting to the line and Lofton not getting there. all of the fouls for Ohio State in the most of fouls that worked against team were at one end of the court. Which leads me to believe in our game that at least one ref was on the pay roll. Its not just Tennessee but Memphis Vanderbilt, Gators, Find a 1 Seed and you will find calls going to their favor. UNLV Game had some controversy. Teeing up USC coach in the game against UNC was a good call however what led to the coach's eruption is another story.

Overall there have been no calls and then calls to No 1 seeds favor or the lower seeds favor.

Just the BS.
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That is a pretty hefty indictment there. I guess CBP was also on the pay roll for trying to play "prevent" during the second half...
 
#32
#32
therealUT said:
That is a pretty hefty indictment there. I guess CBP was also on the pay roll for trying to play "prevent" during the second half...
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Really do not understand. Its not just the OSU game nor is this all about Tennessee. I would say that over 50% to 70% of the games have been poor officiated this year. Not really sure what the problem is here. I understand make up calls they do exist. This is not combat basketball either. Look at the OSU Memphis Game. 29 to 15 Fouls called. The number of free throws between teams was unbelievable. Oden should have received the technical and ejected from the game. No Call. The No Call against Va player hanging from the rim.

I am mad about it and feel that the refs have been bias towards the favorite teams.

We had a let down against OSU. The coach is responsible he will be back we will learn from this. If you are going to call fouls then call them at both ends.

Look at Vandy-GT, USC-UNC, Purdue-FL, VCU Pitt, Seem to be shaping the the brackets.
 
#33
#33
Sudden Impact said:
Been the worst I have ever seen this year in the NCAA. Its not Just Tennessee. Its in all games or a majority.
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I've always been surprised that there has never been a major scandal involving ref's fixing games. With the prevalence of sports gambling now, it seems odd. Here's an example from the NFL.

Several years ago, I received a copy of an FBI-302 report, which detailed the FBI's investigation of NFL referees and game officials. The report stated that "two or three referees" had been paid $100,000 by a New York Mafia figure for their participation in each of eight allegedly fixed games--which I list on page 308 of Interference. The referees' alleged job was to ensure that the unnamed mob figure covered the spread and, thus, won his bets. The referees' names were not mentioned in the FBI report.

As I state in my book, the FBI eventually dropped its probe, because the evidence of game-fixing was, supposedly, inconclusive. In addition, the bureau's principal informant was caught trying to sell the same information to the IRS.
During my own interview with the informant, who had passed a polygraph test, he identified the two referees.
Even though I had the FBI report, the results of the informant's polygraph examination, and the names of the two game officials, I decided not to publish this material without further corroboration. My FBI sources, who had provided a considerable amount of help to me during my research for Interference, refused to comment about this particular game-fixing investigation for my book. I never fully understood why.
Subsequently, I contacted nationally-known oddsmaker, Bobby Martin, who said that he had had similar game-fixing suspicions about at least one NFL game official, whom he named. This referee was one of the two identified by the informant. Martin told me that he had also shared this information with Las Vegas gambler Lem Banker, who confirmed to me both Martin's personal investigation of the referee, as well as his name. Both Martin and Banker told me that they could prove that unnatural money had shown up on the referee's games--but they could not prove that any of the games had been actually fixed.
I then contacted Leo Halper, who was involved in Project Layoff, which included the IRS's investigation of game-fixing in the NFL. He told me that the FBI informant, who had also sold his information to the IRS, had given him the outcomes of the eight fixed games, along with the names of the two referees, in advance of the games being played.
Halper added that the referees had made their own bets on the eight fixed games through beards in Las Vegas. The initial IRS probe included surveillance on one of the beards, who reportedly bet so much money on these games that the betting line actually moved in response to the vast amount of money wagered. According to Halper, this wagering activity occurred at the Barbary Coast's sports book on the Las Vegas Strip.
Also, during my research, I received a correspondence from one of the beards involved with the two NFL referees. He confirmed, in writing, the fixes and named the same two referees.
But the IRS probe, according to the Halper, collapsed when agency chiefs--despite the reliability of the informant's information--refused to authorize a full-scale federal investigation, even though the IRS had concluded that the games had, indeed, been fixed. (Rumors persist that agency officials--who had received the outcomes of NFL games in advance of the contests--were scoring their own betting coups.)
On the basis of the overwhelming evidence--the FBI report, my interviews with Martin and Banker, statements made to me by the IRS agent in charge of the investigation, the letter from the beard allegedly involved with the officials, and the statements made by the FBI/IRS informant, who had passed a polygraph examination--I published the material about the eight fixed games in Interference, hoping that a subsequent official investigation would answer the lingering questions about this matter.
However, upon the advice of my personal attorney, I decided not to publish the names of the two referees.
On August 23, 1989, after the publication of Interference, I was contacted by an intermediary, who told me that NFL league officials wanted to know, among other things, the names of the two referees. On August 25, I met with Warren Welsh, the director of NFL Security, in Las Vegas. I provided him with: a) the FBI report, b) the names of the two NFL referees, and c) the names of all but one of my confidential sources during this particular investigation. The exception was the beard, who asked that his name not be disclosed. The other sources had given me permission to reveal their names and information to Welsh.
On ABC's Nightline on September 11, which was hosted by Jeff Greenfield and focused on gambling in the NFL, I appeared on the program along with Warren Welsh and Las Vegas oddsmaker Michael Roxborough. The question of these eight allegedly fixed games was raised during the program.
According to the official Nightline transcript, the exchange between Welsh and me was precipitated after I claimed that there was evidence that no fewer than 70 NFL games had been fixed. The transcript states:
Greenfield: . . . I can't forbear from picking up on the point you [Moldea] said earlier. Are you talking about games that have been fixed within recent history, recent NFL history, last 10 years or so?
Moldea: I'm saying that the last games I have where there's allegations of fixed games were 10 years ago. There were eight games that were allegedly fixed by two referees who were paid $100,000 each for each game by a New York Mafia guy, and their job was to basically make sure that that Mafia guy covered the spread.
Greenfield: Mr. Welsh, quickly, what do you have to say about those allegations? Have you looked at Mr. Moldea's book? Can you respond to them?
Welsh: I have, and I would like to say that in contact with law enforcement sources, that the informant that Mr. Moldea refers to is term a pathological liar by the FBI.
Moldea: Well, the IRS has a different feeling about him, Warren, and basically they viewed him as being credible, and
that--the IRS believed that the investigation itself concluded that the games were indeed fixed. They had the information in advance of the games on those eight fixed games.
In 1992, Halper of the IRS sat down for a sworn deposition during a separate investigation of game-fixing in the NFL, which had developed in the midst of a civil litigation. Halper was specifically questioned about the accuracy of what I had written in my book:
Question: So you say you knew Dan. That is Dan Moldea?
Halper: Yes.
Question: Where did you know him from?
Halper: He had contacted me when he was doing research for his book. That's how I knew him. . .
Question: Did you read his book?
Halper: I have read most of it.
Question: What did you think of his book from a professional point of view?
Halper: I thought it was well done. . . .
Question: Does he mention in the book the 1979 football season, the games that were fixed?
Halper: Yes.
Question: Did you read that particular component in the book?
Halper: Yes.
Question: Is the book accurate in its detailing or referring to the events of the 1979 football season? Answer: Yes.
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More evidence of NFL game fixing
 
#34
#34
Very interesting!!!!! Thanks for the information. I have gone to the Website provided. This is one of the reason I do not bet except occassionally on big games. Makes you wonder. I had heard this before. I am not sure about college athletics but this year has raise eyebrows. Of course it will be what ever generates the most revenue.
 
#35
#35
Sudden Impact said:
Really do not understand. Its not just the OSU game nor is this all about Tennessee. I would say that over 50% to 70% of the games have been poor officiated this year. Not really sure what the problem is here. I understand make up calls they do exist. This is not combat basketball either. Look at the OSU Memphis Game. 29 to 15 Fouls called. The number of free throws between teams was unbelievable.
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i'm pasting this from my post on buckeyeplanet:
until the 3:47 point in the second half when ohio state was up 74-66, the bucks had made 8 second half free throws (10 attempts) to the tigers' 5 (8 attempts). also to the mark of 3:47, each team had been called for 7 fouls. from that point on, memphis attempted 10 more shots, with 6 of those being 3-point shots and one more being a 2-point jumper. on the other hand, ohio state didn't attempt a single jumper with 3:47 left. because they drove to the bucket for each shot attempt, they forced memphis to foul and they solidified the win by making all 18 free throw attempts in the final 4 minutes.

so, if anyone brings up the free throw disparity (21 attempts), this is the reason why. just like with tennessee, you don't get to the charity stripe by throwing up a bunch of 3-pointers. by the way, each team made 9 free throws in the first half. it really was the last 4 minutes that decided the difference in free throw shooting. being down 8 with under 4 minutes to go, memphis was forced to foul. they did. ohio state capitalized. end of story.
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if you only look at the foul disparity, you would think that memphis got the short end of the stick. that couldn't be farther from the truth. one needs to look beyond just the stats and uncover what lies beneath. this applies to the game against tennessee, too.

consider lofton and the fact that he didn't shoot a single free throw. as everyone knows, pearl brought this up in his presser and was somewhat dumbfounded by that stat. however, if you look at lofton's shot selection, you will see that he shot 18 times. 13 of those were 3-point shots. 3 more were largely uncontested breakaway layups. that leaves 2 other shots.

as many here have noted, tennessee did not attack nearly as much in the second half as they did in the first half. there is a reason why oden went to the bench early in the first half and played only 18 minutes total. the vols went at him and forced him into positions to foul. there wasn't this same penetration in the second half. in the first half, the vols attempted 15 layups (per espn). in the second half, there were 8 attempted layups. you may see 15 and 8 and say that's a difference of only 7. of course, that is true. i look at that (and the game) and see a team that didn't attack like they did in the first half. some may also say that oden wasn't integral to the comeback, but that is not the case. ohio state cut into the lead while he was in the game early in the second half.

though the difference in offensive applications does not tell the whole story, it does tell part of the story. just as the foul shot disparity in the osu/um game doesn't explain the reason behind the disparity, neither does the foul disparity in the osu/ut game.

i don't come here to disagree, and i don't come here to flame. i've received a warm welcome to this board, though i have not made many posts. i welcome all good and considerate views, and i am not married to my own. best of luck to you and your team. as i stated before, the vols are and will be a team to reckon with. i see nothing but more success in your program's future.
 
#36
#36
I'm not a conspiracy theorist.

Buckguy tries to explain the free throw disparity. Reasonable points. I agree UT didn't attack as much in the 2nd half. However, where were all the hand check fouls on Lofton? I don't know if they called one all night. Our best shooter, who was covered like a glove all night, and he wasn't fouled any in the 2nd half? No bumps, no hand checks, etc. Yet Conley gets the benefit of a foul call over and over again, and practically pitched a tent at the foul line the entire 2nd half.

Again, I don't buy a conspiracy theory. But it still makes no sense to me how the focal point of our offense, Lofton, who was guarded tight all game, doesn't make it to the FT line.
 
#38
#38
SCSmokey said:
However, where were all the hand check fouls on Lofton? -- Yet Conley gets the benefit of a foul call over and over again, and practically pitched a tent at the foul line the entire 2nd half. -- But it still makes no sense to me how the focal point of our offense, Lofton, who was guarded tight all game, doesn't make it to the FT line.
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conley and lofton play different games. you're generally not going to get hand-checking fouls if you're not driving to the bucket. conley drives to the bucket. more than 80% of his scoring is a result of penetration--either by teardrops, layups, or foul shots off of penetration. on the other hand, the majority (60%) of lofton's shots are 3-pointers. against ohio state, 72% of his shots were 3-pointers. moreover, a third of the games that lofton played this year were games where he shot 2 or fewer free throws. in a fifth of his games, he shot none at all. again, had lofton penetrated, the calls were likely there for him.

i implore you to watch the second half again. i did after the game. when tennessee drove to the bucket, they got the call when the call was warranted. as i stated before, the vols neglected dribble penetration in the second half in favor of late-clock jump shots. from the first to the second half, tennessee decreased their penetration (layups) by 47% and their points in the paint by 60%.

another issue is defensive pressure. in the first half, the vols redeemed 7 forced turnovers for 14 points. in the second half, the defensive pressure drastically decreased and resulted in forcing only 1 turnover for 2 points. this relates to fouls in that the defense was likely more tired and didn't put themselves in the proper positions to force turnovers but, instead, to cause fouls.

i know, i know, i know... i'm not going to dissuade someone from believing that the officiating was not in the best interest of fairness. what i can do is attempt to shed light on the possible reasons for the free throw disparity. the most obvious discussion point is dribble penetration. if you penetrate, you will get some calls. you may not get all of the calls, but you will assuredly get more calls than if instead a jump shot is taken.
 
#39
#39
I'm not blaming the refs for the Tennessee game. We just played terrible for the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half. However, I am surprised neither Lofton or Smith made it to the line.
 
#40
#40
Buckguy,

How you gonna justify the non-intentional foul against Oden in the Xavier game?
 
#41
#41
tvolsfan said:
I'm not blaming the refs for the Tennessee game. We just played terrible for the first 10 minutes of the 2nd half. However, I am surprised neither Lofton or Smith made it to the line.
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smith doesn't even average 3 free throws per game. heck, he's had 9 games this year where he hasn't shot even one. 50% of his attempts on thursday were 3-point attempts. i bet at least a couple more were jump shots. almost 75% of lofton's shots were 3-pointers. another 3 of his 18 were largely uncontested layups in transition. again, if these guys had penetrated instead of settling (i don't like the term "settling" because they shot very well from outside) for perimeter shots, there would have been more free throws.
 
#42
#42
Fine about Smith, But Lofton is fouled every game. I don't think he was in hiding for this game.
 
#43
#43
OSU_Buckguy said:
smith doesn't even average 3 free throws per game. heck, he's had 9 games this year where he hasn't shot even one. 50% of his attempts on thursday were 3-point attempts. i bet at least a couple more were jump shots. almost 75% of lofton's shots were 3-pointers. another 3 of his 18 were largely uncontested layups in transition. again, if these guys had penetrated instead of settling (i don't like the term "settling" because they shot very well from outside) for perimeter shots, there would have been more free throws.
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justify however you'd like, but Conley has gotten the kid gloves treatment while none of his opponents have. In fact, each of the last 3 opponents of OSU have been jobbed in the second half.
 
#44
#44
BigPapaVol said:
How you gonna justify the non-intentional foul against Oden in the Xavier game?
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you need to watch the different angles of the foul. the primary shot that cbs has shown doesn't shed much light on the fact that oden first contacted the xavier player with his chest. the first part of oden's body that contacted cage was neither his hands nor his arms. he first contacted cage his chest. his arms extended after the initial contact. please, watch the video closely. oh, by the way, oden has about 70 pounds on cage.

if you look at the still photo taken from oden's left, you will see that his hands were not in a "pushing position." you will also see that oden's right hand is near the ball and that his left hand is on top of cage's right arm. if you look at the video shot taken down the length court, you will see that cage jumps off the ground. his movement is not lateral but first vertical. a player should not move up but instead away after receiving that contact. you can see that cage's left leg is already sweeping upwards to gain some height.

0f20ab02.jpg


just as you ask why the foul on oden wasn't called intentional, i could ask why the refs didn't call this foul, which directly preceded the "intentional" foul. i could also ask why the refs didn't call the foul on xavier that resulted in lighty being knocked to the ground on his shot (he's the one on the ground). it's a two-way street here.

06.jpg


as assured that i am that i won't dissuade anyone from thinking that tennessee received an unfair shake from the refs, i know that i won't change your mind about this. many, as i bet you have, have already made up their minds that greg is a thug.
 
#45
#45
OSU_Buckguy said:
as assured that i am that i won't dissuade anyone from thinking that tennessee received an unfair shake from the refs, i know that i won't change your mind about this. many, as i bet you have, have already made up their minds that greg is a thug.
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I don't think he's a thug in any way. I think he intentionally fouled out of desperation and has admitted as much. Parse pictures from now 'til doomsday and it will not change.
 
#46
#46
tvolsfan said:
Fine about Smith, But Lofton is fouled every game. I don't think he was in hiding for this game.
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as i stated before, lofton hasn't shot a free throw in 32% of the games he's played this year. he also has a number of other games where he's shot 2 or fewer free throws. and, tvols, are you absolutely certain that no fouls were ever called on a player defending lofton? just because a player is fouled doesn't necessarily mean that he gets to shoot free throws.
 
#47
#47
BigPapaVol said:
I don't think he's a thug in any way. I think he intentionally fouled out of desperation and has admitted as much.
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all intentional fouls are not intentional fouls... if you get my drift. it is very common for players to intend to foul other players. it happens at the end of every game that has a difference in score of at least a possession. i don't have any doubt that oden intended to commit a hard foul. he even stated as much. however, committing a hard foul doesn't necessarily mean that the foul should be called intentional. hard fouls are committed all the time. the rules make no mention of a hard foul as being all that's necessary for a foul to be called intentional or even flagrant.

trust me, posting on a buckeye board, i've read a lot about other fans claiming that oden intended to foul and, therefore, should have been called for an intentional foul. that is simply not how the rules work. the ncaa rules make no mention of a player's intent to foul as being the sole determinant of an intentional foul. instead, the player is called for an intentional foul if he doesn't make a play at the ball. just as i mentioned before, oden did not have his hands in a pushing position. his right hand is near enough to the ball to be considered a play at it. the ref who called the foul on oden (more importantly, the ref who didn't call an intentional on oden) was standing just to the right of the action. the first part of oden's body that contacted cage was his chest, with his two arms to the right of cage. if oden had pushed cage with his hands/arms first, i would see where you're coming from. that is simply not the case, however. if you really watch the video, you will see this.
 
#48
#48
OSU_Buckguy said:
as i stated before, lofton hasn't shot a free throw in 32% of the games he's played this year. he also has a number of other games where he's shot 2 or fewer free throws. and, tvols, are you absolutely certain that no fouls were ever called on a player defending lofton? just because a player is fouled doesn't necessarily mean that he gets to shoot free throws.
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Didn't you say Smith was the one who barely shot free throws last time?
 
#49
#49
but if there's going to be a discussion about why oden wasn't called for an intentional foul, why is it inappropriate (or at least rarely discussed) for someone to ask why the refs called no foul at all for the arm bar? the picture clearly shows a foul. if the refs had called that foul, there would have been no "intentional" foul. oden would have been at the line shooting two free throws for the lead. i bet we could go through a bunch of inconsistencies for both teams. every game has these calls that could go both ways.
 
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