Recycling plastics adds no value

[FortSanders]

Thomas Kinnaman an environmental economist concluded that recycling plastics is cost prohibitive.

it doesn't make much economic or environmental sense to recycle plastic and glass in much of the developed world. Despite claims that plastics are recyclable, really only PET and HDPE (types 1 and 2 in North America) can be readily reused. In total, only 9% of plastic is melted and reformed. The rest goes into landfills or the wider environment....

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/12/14/why_its_probably_better_to_throw_plastic_in_the_trash_152089.html

 

[FortSanders]

This documentary is very telling.

 

[FortSanders]

Elon Musk gets it.

 

[LouderVol]

there were some really cool recycling, plastic, techs being researched by ORNL back in the early/mid 2000s. Obama killed those projects when he shifted funding to solar panels.

the problem with recycling plastics is you have to clean it first, any material that isn't the type of plastic you are trying to recycle would weaken the mix. its not like melting down metal where you can burn off or separate out impurities. and secondly most of the processes for recycling require melting it down, which just weakens the polymers. that combined with the impurities means you get really weak plastics. So you are constantly down cycling plastics from higher grades to lower grades. until the point you can't use it for anything. unlike most common metals where you can pretty much always remelt it down and reuse it.

One of the techs I remember from the pre-Obama days was a cold melt that kept the same grade integrity. IIRC it had a large upfront cost, but once you had it going it was a lot cheaper than the typical recycling process.

they were also working on some "green goo" tech having microorganisms/algae that broke down plastic into a useable fuel source. Issue was it could never be used in the open world, with how much plastic is in the water you would get ocean wide algae blooms that would totally disrupt the ecosystem. yay you got rid of the plastics but now nothing lives in the water because the sun was blocked out for multiple years while the algae ate the plastics.

 

[FortSanders]

there were some really cool recycling, plastic, techs being researched by ORNL back in the early/mid 2000s. Obama killed those projects when he shifted funding to solar panels.

the problem with recycling plastics is you have to clean it first, any material that isn't the type of plastic you are trying to recycle would weaken the mix. its not like melting down metal where you can burn off or separate out impurities. and secondly most of the processes for recycling require melting it down, which just weakens the polymers. that combined with the impurities means you get really weak plastics. So you are constantly down cycling plastics from higher grades to lower grades. until the point you can't use it for anything. unlike most common metals where you can pretty much always remelt it down and reuse it.

One of the techs I remember from the pre-Obama days was a cold melt that kept the same grade integrity. IIRC it had a large upfront cost, but once you had it going it was a lot cheaper than the typical recycling process.

they were also working on some "green goo" tech having microorganisms/algae that broke down plastic into a useable fuel source. Issue was it could never be used in the open world, with how much plastic is in the water you would get ocean wide algae blooms that would totally disrupt the ecosystem. yay you got rid of the plastics but now nothing lives in the water because the sun was blocked out for multiple years while the algae ate the plastics.

Thanks for the insight. So... at this point, we have no real economic options, except to dispose of plastics in landfills. Why even recycle plastics?

 

[hog88]

We should be burning most of our trash for energy.

 

[MG1968]

We should be burning most of our trash for energy.

Imagine how long an air turbine blade will burn.

 

[Vol423]

Thomas Kinnaman an environmental economist concluded that recycling plastics is cost prohibitive.

it doesn't make much economic or environmental sense to recycle plastic and glass in much of the developed world. Despite claims that plastics are recyclable, really only PET and HDPE (types 1 and 2 in North America) can be readily reused. In total, only 9% of plastic is melted and reformed. The rest goes into landfills or the wider environment....

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/12/14/why_its_probably_better_to_throw_plastic_in_the_trash_152089.html

I remember back when the looney leftists were going to save the world by changing over everything to plastic bags and containers so they would be recycled.

 

[volbound1700]

We should be burning most of our trash for energy.

I have always thought the same thing. I worked with Covanta in the past and the process is very efficient. They even have scrubbers to prevent CO2 from getting into the atmosphere.

 

[LouderVol]

Thanks for the insight. So... at this point, we have no real economic options, except to dispose of plastics in landfills. Why even recycle plastics?

at this point it does seem like a matter of ego, keeping the narrative alive rather than a true environmental reason. I mean I guess you are keeping it out of landfills if you actually do recycle it. but most places that claim to recycle plastic do exactly what was outlined here, just pay to dump it somewhere else.

 

[StarRaider]

We should be burning most of our trash for energy.

that Nashville Thermal plant was awesome lol

I will probably continue to recycle paper/cardboard and metal.

 

[hog88]

that Nashville Thermal plant was awesome lol

I will probably continue to recycle paper/cardboard and metal.

They closed the Gallatin thermal plant around the same time as they closed the Nashville one. Always thought it was dumb to burry trash when you can burn it and get electricity in return.

 

[Sea Ray]

They closed the Gallatin thermal plant around the same time as they closed the Nashville one. Always thought it was dumb to burry trash when you can burn it and get electricity in return.

I think the issue is the air pollution created by burning it

 

[hog88]

I think the issue is the air pollution created by burning it

Trading one pollution for another. Be reasonable with the particulate coming off the stacks and we could burn most of our trash and not risk the groundwater pollution from burying it.

 

[LouderVol]

Trading one pollution for another. Be reasonable with the particulate coming off the stacks and we could burn most of our trash and not risk the groundwater pollution from burying it.

acid rain is still a thing.
what goes up must come down.
and you still need to breathe that air.

 

[hog88]

acid rain is still a thing.
what goes up must come down.
and you still need to breathe that air.

Air coming out of stack is easier to scrub than cleaning up contaminated groundwater.

 

[LouderVol]

Air coming out of stack is easier to scrub than cleaning up contaminated groundwater.

if its actually done. treating the waste water before it leaves the plant would also be easier than cleaning up contaminated groundwater.

 

[hog88]

if its actually done. treating the waste water before it leaves the plant would also be easier than cleaning up contaminated groundwater.

Yes, you are correct.

 

[85SugarVol]

I think the issue is the air pollution created by burning it

Scrub it

 

[Wireless1]

There are methods of plastics recycling that breaks the plastic back down to the molecular level. It works better with some grades of plastic but theoretically all grades could qualify.
The plants are expensive to build and maintain but like aluminum and glass, it delivers a level of infinite recycle ability

 

[C-south]

Imagine how long an air turbine blade will burn.

Might have to pour a little gas on it.

 

[UT_Dutchman]

There are methods of plastics recycling that breaks the plastic back down to the molecular level. It works better with some grades of plastic but theoretically all grades could qualify.
The plants are expensive to build and maintain but like aluminum and glass, it delivers a level of infinite recycle ability

Eastman chemical is working on it.

Molecular Recycling Revolution: A Closed-Loop Solution for Automotive Plastic Waste | Eastman

Discover how Eastman's molecular recycling technology, in collaboration with leading partners, provides a closed-loop solution for automotive plastic waste.

www.eastman.com

 

[LouderVol]

Pollution Paradox: How Cleaning Up Smog Drives Ocean Warming

New research indicates that the decline in smog particles from China’s air cleanups caused the recent extreme heat waves in the Pacific. Scientists are grappling with the fact that reducing such pollution, while essential for public health, is also heating the atmosphere.

e360.yale.edu

Not really applicable but similar vibe. Cleaning up the environment leads to Global Warming?

"As a result, scientists say, the aerosol mask is slipping, causing a boost to global warming in many regions. “We are currently experiencing greenhouse-gas driven global warming enhanced by aerosol removal,” says Ben Booth, a climate modeler at the U.K. Met Office."

I know i was having this argument with someone. About how air pollution couldn't ONLY trap heat in. It was also keeping some heat out. Now I have a link.

"They don’t stick around in the air for more than a few days. But climate modelers calculate that while they are there, they fend off as much as a third of greenhouse warming."

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Pollution Paradox: How Cleaning Up Smog Drives Ocean Warming

New research indicates that the decline in smog particles from China’s air cleanups caused the recent extreme heat waves in the Pacific. Scientists are grappling with the fact that reducing such pollution, while essential for public health, is also heating the atmosphere.

e360.yale.edu

Not really applicable but similar vibe. Cleaning up the environment leads to Global Warming?

"As a result, scientists say, the aerosol mask is slipping, causing a boost to global warming in many regions. “We are currently experiencing greenhouse-gas driven global warming enhanced by aerosol removal,” says Ben Booth, a climate modeler at the U.K. Met Office."

I know i was having this argument with someone. About how air pollution couldn't ONLY trap heat in. It was also keeping some heat out. Now I have a link.

"They don’t stick around in the air for more than a few days. But climate modelers calculate that while they are there, they fend off as much as a third of greenhouse warming."

^^^ hilarious.

When I was a kid, right between the 1970s " ICE AGE IS COMING AND WE ARE ALL GONNA FREEZE TO DEATH!!" and the 1990s " GLOBAL WARMING WILL HAVE FLORIDA AND COASTAL CITIES UNDERWATER BY YEAR 2000!! " We had the " Ozone layer crisis". CFC's...Chlorofluorocarbons...were thinning the ozone layer that helps shield Earth from the Suns radiation. The US government believed the panic and outlawed CFCs, which were used in many, many aerosol products that people use. Think hairspray and cleaners...it ALSO outlawed Freon coolant. Back when I was a kid in the 80s, the AC in cars ran on Freon. Freon blows AC SO Cold that it would make your teeth chatter on a July day in the South. So cold that water droplets would condense on the vents and drip slowly in my Pappaws pickup. Blow freezing cold immediately in 95 degree weather. The garbage shrub hugger crap they replaced Freon with (under penalty of jail for using Freon) is what we have now where it takes 10mins to even cool your car down on a summer day, and thats if you crack a window and push the hot air out first instead of trying to recycle and cool 120 degree air that was trapped in your car before you got in.

Of course the "Chicken Little" tree huggers were wrong about the Ozone layer, too. Just like every other prediction in the never ending Climate Change string of hoaxes. Turns out, after we outlawed CFCs...ruining AC, and costing several different industries billions no doubt...China started insulating all new houses with spray foam insulation. Powered by what? Well CFCs of course. For the next couple decades, and I believe even still today, China pumped out more than 10x the CFCs ever produced in the US...still uses them...and yet the Ozone layer "healed itself". Theres no longer thinning at the poles, theres no hole, theres nothing wrong with the "Ozone Layer" that was gonna end civilization. Turns out it was just cyclical. Like everything else in nature. Cycles. Just another huge theft. I bet the politicians of that time and their buddies got really rich selling alternatives to Freon etc.

Nothing has changed. Literally nothing. Go see how many politicians were set to make millions upon millions from the "Green New Deal" until thankfully Trump cancelled what remained of it. Humans even with the aid of the best computers on Earth cannot predict the weather more than 48 hours away with any semblance of accuracy. Anybody that tells you they need millions because XYZ is gonna kill us all in a decade is 100% full of crap. We have no idea what next week will look like. "Climate Change" is the never ending scam of a lifetime.

 

[LouderVol]

^^^ hilarious.

When I was a kid, right between the 1970s " ICE AGE IS COMING AND WE ARE ALL GONNA FREEZE TO DEATH!!" and the 1990s " GLOBAL WARMING WILL HAVE FLORIDA AND COASTAL CITIES UNDERWATER BY YEAR 2000!! " We had the " Ozone layer crisis". CFC's...Chlorofluorocarbons...were thinning the ozone layer that helps shield Earth from the Suns radiation. The US government believed the panic and outlawed CFCs, which were used in many, many aerosol products that people use. Think hairspray and cleaners...it ALSO outlawed Freon coolant. Back when I was a kid in the 80s, the AC in cars ran on Freon. Freon blows AC SO Cold that it would make your teeth chatter on a July day in the South. So cold that water droplets would condense on the vents and drip slowly in my Pappaws pickup. Blow freezing cold immediately in 95 degree weather. The garbage shrub hugger crap they replaced Freon with (under penalty of jail for using Freon) is what we have now where it takes 10mins to even cool your car down on a summer day, and thats if you crack a window and push the hot air out first instead of trying to recycle and cool 120 degree air that was trapped in your car before you got in.

Of course the "Chicken Little" tree huggers were wrong about the Ozone layer, too. Just like every other prediction in the never ending Climate Change string of hoaxes. Turns out, after we outlawed CFCs...ruining AC, and costing several different industries billions no doubt...China started insulating all new houses with spray foam insulation. Powered by what? Well CFCs of course. For the next couple decades, and I believe even still today, China pumped out more than 10x the CFCs ever produced in the US...still uses them...and yet the Ozone layer "healed itself". Theres no longer thinning at the poles, theres no hole, theres nothing wrong with the "Ozone Layer" that was gonna end civilization. Turns out it was just cyclical. Like everything else in nature. Cycles. Just another huge theft. I bet the politicians of that time and their buddies got really rich selling alternatives to Freon etc.

Nothing has changed. Literally nothing. Go see how many politicians were set to make millions upon millions from the "Green New Deal" until thankfully Trump cancelled what remained of it. Humans even with the aid of the best computers on Earth cannot predict the weather more than 48 hours away with any semblance of accuracy. Anybody that tells you they need millions because XYZ is gonna kill us all in a decade is 100% full of crap. We have no idea what next week will look like. "Climate Change" is the never ending scam of a lifetime.

don't forget that we had to save the trees. Can't have paper bags or packaging. now everything has to be in plastics...made with those nasty fossil fuels. that don't really degrade.