Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

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#10,227
#10,227
bignewt said:
Especially our unwinnable "police actions" that get Americans in the prime of their lives killed on foreign soil.
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I wasn't talking about those types of operations. More along the line of WWII. Self defense and to take out genocidal dictators bent on world conquest. We should have never got involved in the Middle East.
 
#10,228
#10,228
Ok, guys, Serious question, because I am unsure of the answer. Also, I agree on Iraq. SHould have never went in there. My, question, what do we do when a country, Afghanistan, harbors and aids terrorist that launch terrorist attacks on us (9/11)? SHould we not attack them? Should we have attacked them, done all we could do and left? Hit them from afar with cruise missiles? Special ops and take out leaders as they emerge?
 
#10,229
#10,229
InVOLuntary said:
Ok, guys, Serious question, because I am unsure of the answer. Also, I agree on Iraq. SHould have never went in there. My, question, what do we do when a country, Afghanistan, harbors and aids terrorist that launch terrorist attacks on us (9/11)? SHould we not attack them? Should we have attacked them, done all we could do and left? Hit them from afar with cruise missiles? Special ops and take out leaders as they emerge?
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Diplomacy then cruise missiles.
 
#10,230
#10,230
The Dog said:
About 10 years ago, I was single and doing the bar scene every weekend. I was making eye contact with this really hot girl, so eventually I bought her a drink and went over to talk to her. After about 30 minutes of talking to her, she told me she was married.

I said something like, "Oh, I'm sorry, I will leave u along"

She said, "It's ok, he is in Afghanistan, so he does't have to know anything about it".

I was shocked and said, " But, I would. Have a good night, bye". Some women are just heartless, soulless creatures.
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And all men are virtuous, completely faithful partners?
C'mon dude...horn dog is a term for a reason.

:hi:

All humans can be heartless, soulless creatures.
 
#10,231
#10,231
SergeantVol said:
Diplomacy then cruise missiles.
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Is that really effective though? Obviously diplomacy with the taliban was most likely pointless. Also, I think you would have to hit them before they struck you so as to add the element of surprise.

On another note, I think Afghanistan would have turned out a lot different if we hadn't divided our resources by going into iraq.
 
#10,232
#10,232
InVOLuntary said:
Ok, guys, Serious question, because I am unsure of the answer. Also, I agree on Iraq. SHould have never went in there. My, question, what do we do when a country, Afghanistan, harbors and aids terrorist that launch terrorist attacks on us (9/11)? SHould we not attack them? Should we have attacked them, done all we could do and left? Hit them from afar with cruise missiles? Special ops and take out leaders as they emerge?
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First you use black ops to find and kill Bin Laden but you DO NOT invade and set up shop in that country. Learn from what Russia tried.

Then honestly ask ourselves, why did we get attacked? The answer is because we have been over there meddling since before WWII. We got attacked because of Iraq and plenty before that. So we completely pull out and I mean everything and in every way. Cease to become the enemy.
 
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#10,233
#10,233
bignewt said:
First you use black ops to find and kill Bin Laden but you DO NOT invade and set up shop in that country. Learn from what Russia tried.

Then honestly ask ourselves, why did we get attacked? The answer is because we have been over there meddling since before WWII. We got attacked because of Iraq and plenty before that. So we completely pull out and I mean everything and in every way. Cease to become the enemy.
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The reason we were there was oil. We were protecting the oil supply. The first time we were there we were protecting an ally, Kuwait. Which I think was justified. It all boils down to oil.

As to the reason they attacked us, I agree some is in retaliation as what they perceived to be western aggression. However, they also hate our way of life and want to kill any and all that don't agree with them. They would still want to attack us regardless, IMO.
 
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#10,234
#10,234
InVOLuntary said:
The reason we were there was oil. We were protecting the oil supply. The first time we were there we were protecting an ally, Kuwait. Which I think was justified. It all boils down to oil.

As to the reason they attacked us, I agree some is in retaliation as what they perceived to be western aggression. However, they also hate our way of life and want to kill any and all that don't agree with them. They would still want to attack us regardless, IMO.
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If we stayed out they would just continue to turn on each other. Justifying invasions as "they would just attack us anyway" is foolish IMO.
 
#10,236
#10,236
We support Israel. There will always be those that hate us because of that simple fact. We can certainly limit our effect by not meddling in other countries but our support of Israel is reason enough for many to hate us. I don't think we should stop supporting them though. We just have to pick our battles more carefully and decide which ones are worth the lives of our young men and women.
 
#10,237
#10,237
bignewt said:
If we stayed out they would just continue to turn on each other. Justifying invasions as "they would just attack us anyway" is foolish IMO.
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They hate our way of life and everything we stand for, which includes our progress life style. There is a portion of the population that shows aggression towards us who are forced to fight but the large majority fight because of their beliefs.
 
#10,238
#10,238
Fowdep said:
They hate our way of life and everything we stand for, which includes our progress life style. There is a portion of the population that shows aggression towards us who are forced to fight but the large majority fight because of their beliefs.
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Hating our lifestyle and seeing us bomb their village are two very different things.
 
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#10,244
#10,244
bignewt said:
And plenty before that. Do you think terrorist organization members are isolated to one country?
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The US doesn't enter random countries and start bombing. Have we bombed Saudi Arabia or Yemen or Iran for that matter. They still have portions of their society bent on the destruction of Israel and the US. Sometimes there is no explanation for blind hatred. Most of those that hate us couldn't tell you a plausible reason. They hate us because that is how they were raised and taught. We are evil and that is all they "know".

I am a big supporter of not sticking our nose where it doesn't belong but how do we combat such blind hatred. Do we leave them alone for decades while they build gigantic terrorist organizations unchecked.

It is not a simple situation and does not have a simple answer unfortunately. We have to encourage those countries to improve their standard of living. The majority of terrorists act because they have nothing to lose and feel they have everything to gain. Successful countries and populations are less likely to start sh** because they have a lot to lose.

Of course their are the wackadoos like Hitler.

Anyway, like I said. No simple solution.
 
#10,246
#10,246
Glitch said:
The majority of terrorists act because they have nothing to lose and feel they have everything to gain. Successful countries and populations are less likely to start sh** because they have a lot to lose.
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I feel like you've offered a very naunced, well thought out opinion on this matter. I would like to highlight, however, that a good portion of the world's terrorism is funded by folks who have plenty (Saudi Arabia).

I believe terrorism is a lot like a proxy war.
 
#10,247
#10,247
bignewt said:
And plenty before that. Do you think terrorist organization members are isolated to one country?
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No but they are like a band of brothers united by religion. They have a common enemy, anyone that doesn't bow down to Mohammed. Bin Laden was quoted as saying his main motivation was our bases in Saudi Arabia. But, our first major military offensive against a Muslim country was Iraq.
 
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#10,248
#10,248
InVOLuntary said:
No but they are like a bad of brothers united by religion. They have a common enemy, anyone that doesn't bow down to Mohammed. Bin Laden was quoted as saying his main motivation was our bases in Saudi Arabia. But, our first major military offensive against a Muslim country was Iraq.
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First publicized one, yes.
 
#10,250
#10,250
The hate in that area of the world towards the west goes back a lot further than Iraq. You'd probably have to go back to the way Europe (America, to a certain extent, but at the time mostly England) carved up the Middle East after the end of WW1 and the way western countries backed (or sometimes put in place) rulers who protected western interests like oil while being generally s***ty rulers for their own people. A lot of modern middle eastern countries have borders that make little or no cultural or geographical sense. Countries like Iraq should probably have been split into 2-3 separate countries based on longstanding cultural boundaries. A lot of nomadic or pastoral peoples found their ways of life made much more difficult or sometimes impossible once the Ottoman Empire disappeared. Western support of the Zionist movement in the wake of WWII is a factor too, of course.

Even a lot of western hate and distrust in South Asia can be traced back to colonization. Pakistan (the 2nd or 3rd largest Muslim country, can't remember exactly) and Bangladesh wouldn't even exist if it weren't for colonization. Muslims had lived in India as a minority in relative peace for hundreds of years before it became the jewel of the British empire. People living in the Middle East and parts of Central or South Asia have seen their lives change rapidly (and usually for the worse) over the last 100 years.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the "they just hate our way of life" explanation. Historically, you can look at places like the Middle East and South Asia and see that, despite cultural differences, Muslim people were perfectly capable of getting along with Christians, Jews, and Hindus so long as there was political stability in the area. But over the last 100 years or so political stability has declined (or in some cases disappeared completely) and the standard of living has stagnated (or declined even) and it has opened the door for extremist groups. One thing most of the leaders of extremist groups like Bin Laden have in common is that their motives are ultimately political. IMO most of them use religion as a tool to take advantage of desperate or disenfranchised people.



That's not to say that Islam and religion doesn't play a role. The belief system and cultural history of Islam make its followers more susceptible to extremist movements than many other religions, IMO. They have a generally closer tie between religion and politics than the other Abrahamic faiths, which makes a movement like ISIS much more possible than, say, Christian extemists trying to create a Christian state. But, despite religion or culture, people are people. And most people living in prosperous, stable areas are content to go on living their lives and let others live theirs.


But when you live in a s***hole country with little to no prospects and you're constantly hearing about how much better off your ancestors were before whitey showed up and started carving up borders, and re-ordering systems of government...









The really s***ty thing about it all is that there isn't really anything we can do about it at this point.

We can't go in and try to make it all better without fighting wars that would make us even less popular (not to mention the fact that finding moral/fiscal justification for actions like that is basically impossible at this point).

We can't give too much support to many countries in the area because their governments are so s***ty we don't know if they'll turn around and use funds/weapons on a neighbor (or against us).

Going into areas like Syria or waging an outright war against ISIS will likely lead to collateral damage that will just create more people who hate us.

It's in Russia's interest to keep the are unstable because it's become a political and military morass and money pit for us.

We need Saudi oil badly enough that we'd rather keep a corrupt-ass regime (that we know is funneling funds to terror groups) in power than do anything to jeapordize our relationship with them.

Completely drawing out and leaving them to sort it out for themselves sounds appealing (and might help us out 100-150 years down the line...maybe), but we can't exactly just leave Israel to fend for themselves and ISIS/Russia to swoop in and do what they will. And people over there already have ill will towards us, that won't change overnight.

Also, drawing out completely would probably ultimately lead to even more refugee crises. We don't want that, obviously.

And there are democracies we set up over there just last decade that we'd basically be dooming to crumble. They might crumble anyway, of course. But swooping in in the name of democracy, setting up a government, and then backing out and leaving it to die won't make us less unpopular over there.




The whole situation is FUBAR and anybody who claims they have a solution is either talking out of their ass or lying for votes.
 
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