Recruiting Forum Off-Topic Thread II

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#627
#627
Darth_Shiveman said:
I'm sure the babies, inside and outside of their mother, who were murdered were awful people.
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So if those babies are only exposed to the evil culture they are in, which God would have the answer to, yes, they were to be kllled (not murdered). His rules, not ours. You can't save babies in the womb when killing the mothers, especially back then. In theory you can save the babies/children outside the womb. Could it be that God knew the nature of the children would lead them back to the evil of their parents and horrific culture? I'll have to ask him that one day when I am by his side. I do know that throughout history God has proven he will save a remnant of believers despite the non-believing cultures around them.

This is all about submitting to God's authority or not. You indicate you choose 'not'. But if somebody from ISIS walked up and cut the head of your child off would you be so magnanimous? You would likely want to respond in kind. They are doing many of the same things as the Canaanites, who included the practice as part of their worship of Baal and their many sub-Gods. That culture was leeching into the chosen people of God - so he put a stop to it.
 
#628
#628
that's some old testament right there. New testament would forgive the ISIS member that just cut the head of your child off and ask them to seek salavation.
 
#629
#629
seaofORANGE22 said:
I am a Christian and I agree with this.

It rubs me the wrong way to see politicians like Cruz use Christianity in a way that ultimately only brings Ted Cruz more glory. He makes me feel like he's only bringing up his faith to try to gain my vote. It just sounds like another talking point. If being a Christian is who you are. Great. But being a Christian has to be greater than just using church lingo to draw a rise from a crowd. It's being renewed in your thinking and being driven by seeing others changed by the gospel. I feel like many politicians are only using "religion" to cover a greater demographic.

I would honestly be okay if he just said he was not a Christian. That would be fine. In that case, I would respect his honesty. I don't think somebody has to be a Christian to be a good president.

I'm not even trying to doubt Cruz's faith. Or Trumps. Or anyone else's. Who am I to judge their hearts? That's between them and God. I'm just discouraged, because many on the fringe end up believing that that's all Christ offers. Become a Christian so you can do the right thing and vote republican!

More and more I'm seeing that my hope will never lie in a politician coming in and fixing everything for me.

Also..... Christians are doing it all wrong if the world is only seeing us as some type of moral police. What a shame that is.
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On Cruz, I can't speak as to his reasons for speaking about his faith, but could it be that that is who he is? And it just flows out of him? I don't know. Assuming he is doing it for political benefit questions his character and integrity. You may be right about it. I don't know. But I hope not.

On the moral police point, I will only speak to the abortion issue. I don't think that is being a moral police. (And you may not even have been talking about abortion when you made that point)....

Because it affects an innocent human life who is not allowed to make their own choice. God gives us as humans freedom of choice, to choose to accept him and His Son and Their teaching or to reject Them. We can choose to do good or to do evil. Someone who chooses to have an abortion is not just making that (evil, imo) choice for themselves. But they're "playing God" and taking it from another human, a human that is completely and totally dependent for survival on the exact one that is taking that choice from them.

I personally believe abortion is murder and is morally wrong. And is a worthy cause for which to fight.
 
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#630
#630
Also I think teaching against something isn't being a police, as I believe we should teach to Love God and Love Others, and anything that violates those should be taught against. It's not about hate. It's about teaching the The Way, Truth, and Life.

However I will say that in all the teaching, standard-bearing, etc, we should never lose sight of the point that Jesus is the only way to life and it is through the grace offered through His blood by obedience to the Gospel.

The greatest commands: Love God. And love others.
 
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#631
#631
volssam said:
On Cruz, I can't speak as to his reasons for speaking about his faith, but could it be that that is who he is? And it just flows out of him? I don't know. Assuming he is doing it for political benefit questions his character and integrity. You may be right about it. I don't know. But I hope not.

On the moral police point, I will only speak to the abortion issue. I don't think that is being a moral police. (And you may not even have been talking about abortion when you made that point)....

Because it affects an innocent human life who is not allowed to make their own choice. God gives us as humans freedom of choice, to choose to accept him and His Son and Their teaching or to reject Them. We can choose to do good or to do evil. Someone who chooses to have an abortion is not just making that (evil, imo) choice for themselves. But they're "playing God" and taking it from another human, a human that is completely and totally dependent for survival on the exact one that is taking that choice from them.

I personally believe abortion is murder and is morally wrong. And is a worthy cause for which to fight.
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You might be right about Cruz. That's just a vibe I picked up listening to him. Just sounded strange to me. I'll probably still vote for him though if he's the candidate. I might not vote at all. Haven't decided yet.

In general about the moral police stuff. I wasn't specifically addressing abortion. But I do think defending your own stances and controlling what you can control is important. But I also think you have to think through the most effective way to communicate your point. Does being judged and condemned to hell by Christians communicate a very loving and accepting view of Christ? I don't think so. Quoting bible verses to somebody who doesn't believe that the bible is true is probably a waste of time as well.

I'm not saying you do that. But I have seen those types of reactions coming from Christian communities.

I don't know exactly what the answer is. But I think we should try to love our neighbors as ourselves. Love people as they are and not who we wish they were. Try to understand their circumstances and then try to explain our own. I think that happens much more effectively face to face and not on the internet though.

I believe God is in control without me diving in and trying to remind everybody of what's right and wrong.
 
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#632
#632
seaofORANGE22 said:
You might be right about Cruz. That's just a vibe I picked up listening to him. Just sounded strange to me. I'll probably still vote for him though if he's the candidate. I might not vote at all. Haven't decided yet.

In general about the moral police stuff. I wasn't specifically addressing abortion. But I do think defending your own stances and controlling what you can control is important. But I also think you have to think through the most effective way to communicate your point. Does being judged and condemned to hell by Christians communicate a very loving and accepting view of Christ? I don't think so. Quoting bible verses to somebody who doesn't believe that the bible is true is probably a waste of time as well.

I'm not saying you do that. But I have seen those types of reactions coming from Christian communities.

I don't know exactly what the answer is. But I think we should try to love our neighbors as ourselves. Love people as they are and not who we wish they were. Try to understand their circumstances and then try to explain our own. I think that happens much more effectively face to face and not on the internet though.

I believe God is in control without me diving in and trying to remind everybody of what's right and wrong.
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I definitely think there is a line that can be crossed, especially with attitude and tone, to where one is not being effective and/or possibly being detrimental to the cause of Christ. But I also do believe we should stand up and speak up for morals/values/virtues and stand against evil.
 
#633
#633
volssam said:
Also I think teaching against something isn't being a police, as I believe we should teach to Love God and Love Others, and anything that violates those should be taught against. It's not about hate. It's about teaching the The Way, Truth, and Life.

However I will say that in all the teaching, standard-bearing, etc, we should never lose sight of the point that Jesus is the only way to life and it is through the grace offered through His blood by obedience to the Gospel.

The greatest commands: Love God. And love others.
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How can salvation be offered through grace, and yet at the same time still be determined by our own obedience?

If we are still required to be obedient to receive it then that's not grace. That's us earning it.

We've all sinned and fallen short.

I do agree that we should strive for holiness, God is waiting on us there. But our sins are washed cleaned. The ones we committed and the ones we haven't even considered yet.
 
#634
#634
seaofORANGE22 said:
How can salvation be offered through grace, and yet at the same time still be determined by our own obedience?

If we are still required to be obedient to receive it then that's not grace. That's us earning it.

We've all sinned and fallen short.

I do agree that we should strive for holiness, God is waiting on us there. But our sins are washed cleaned. The ones we committed and the ones we haven't even considered yet.
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I don't mean we can earn our way to heaven by doing good. That is impossible. We are imperfect and sin and we can't do enough good. Grace is the only way.

What I meant with the through obedience comment: I believe the Bible teaches the grace is accessed through Jesus's blood, and that that blood is accessed through faith, repentance, confession, and ultimately baptism (immersion).

Acts 2:37-38
1 Peter 3:21
Mark 16:15-16
I Cor 15:1-4 coupled with Romans 6:1-4
Galatians 3:26-27
Romans 10:13 coupled with Acts 22:16
Acts 8:36-38
 
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#635
#635
volssam said:
I don't mean we can earn our way to heaven by doing good. That is impossible. We are imperfect and sin and we can't do enough good. Grace is the only way.

What I meant with the through obedience comment: I believe the Bible teaches the grace is accessed through Jesus's blood, and that that blood is accessed through faith, repentance, confession, and ultimately baptism (immersion).

Acts 2:37-38
1 Peter 3:21
Mark 16:15-16
I Cor 15:1-4 coupled with Romans 6:1-4
Galatians 3:26-27
Romans 10:13 coupled with Acts 22:16
Acts 8:36-38
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But you're still telling me all these things that YOU have to do in order for you to receive God's grace.

Is God not powerful enough to just cover your sins and call you forgiven? You still have to step in and accomplish a few tasks in order for it to kick in?

I think you're a great guy. I admire you for what you stand up for on here. But there is a disconnect for me as far as what God is changing in us, that we are doing in response to his grace, and what you are saying, which seems to be what we are doing to acquire his grace. It's about who is getting credit. Mines going to God. All of it.

I also believe firmly in predestination, which I think is where the root of this disconnect lies.
 
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#637
#637
seaofORANGE22 said:
How can salvation be offered through grace, and yet at the same time still be determined by our own obedience?

If we are still required to be obedient to receive it then that's not grace. That's us earning it.

We've all sinned and fallen short.

I do agree that we should strive for holiness, God is waiting on us there. But our sins are washed cleaned. The ones we committed and the ones we haven't even considered yet.
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You're Methodist, aren't you?
 
#638
#638
seaofORANGE22 said:
I'm on the fence with your phrasing but I'll check it out.
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Haha. Sounds good. I believe it is important to have scripture to back up beliefs. And I feel like I have Scrupture to back up what my beliefs are and how I understand the Word. Not saying I know everything I should,AT ALL. I believe it is important to study the bible daily.

Sorry if I sounded confusing. Basically I don't think we can earn our way to heaven. But I do believe God requires an act of obedience to access His grace, that act being baptism (see the verses I posted). Baptism is pointless unless you first believe that Jesus is God's Son, confess that belief, and are willing to repent from your sins. There are also verses relating to those as well (John 8:24, Luke 13:3, Romans 10:9-10 being 3 of them, among others)
 
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#639
#639
Sam, Great points on everything that you said with the scriptures to back it up. I agree 100% with that interpretation of God's word.

To add just a small amount of information to what Sam said… Grace is defined as undeserved favor, not unearned favor. No matter what we do, we could never deserve what God did for us... That is, sending his only Son to this earth with the plan of him living a perfect life, and being crucified as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world past, present, and future. By being obedient to God's word, specifically the New Testament as this is the law we live under, we can have access to that grace, which gives us the hope of spending eternity in heaven with God the Father and Jesus, as long as we live a faithful life until death or Jesus comes again.

Hope this helps, seaorange.
 
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#642
#642
I find much of the bible extremely difficult to comprehend just from the sheer amount of metaphors and different ways to interpret the text.
 
#646
#646
Catbone said:
I find much of the bible extremely difficult to comprehend just from the sheer amount of metaphors and different ways to interpret the text.
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In general the New Testament is a lot easier to wade through. Reading the book of Mark or John is where I would start if you're actually interested. Those are mainly the stories of Jesus and help you understand who he was and what he stood for. Both books end with his death (spoiler alert!)

Acts comes after John. Acts is great because it was the early formings of the church. It's amazing the trials they faced just trying to preserve the fact that the resurrection actually happened. It also introduces us to Paul and shows how God changed him from a killer into a traveling preacher.

The next several books are letters from Paul to the various churches he ended up ministering to.

That's my favorite stretch of the Bible probably.

I've struggled to read it consistently all my life. It's super hard at times. But it's not impossible if you chip away at it and know where to start and where you're going.
 
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#648
#648
seaofORANGE22 said:
In general the New Testament is a lot easier to wade through. Reading the book of Mark or John is where I would start if you're actually interested. Those are mainly the stories of Jesus and help you understand who he was and what he stood for. Both books end with his death (spoiler alert!)

Acts comes after John. Acts is great because it was the early formings of the church. It's amazing the trials they faced just trying to preserve the fact that the resurrection actually happened. It also introduces us to Paul and shows how God changed him from a killer into a traveling preacher.

The next several books are letters from Paul to the various churches he ended up ministering to.

That's my favorite stretch of the Bible probably.

I've struggled to read it consistently all my life. It's super hard at times. But it's not impossible if you chip away at it and know where to start and where you're going.
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Thanks man I appreciate it!
 
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