Recruiting Forum Football Talk III

[butchna]

Not to take anything away from Bill Russell, but his teams were stacked with future HOF’s...Wilt’s, not so much..

And none of them could effectively neutralize Wilt...except Russell. You can’t take anything away from Russell...many tried.

 

[volbeast33]

Superman has kryptonite. Wilt had Bill Russell.

Some kryptonite...... wilt averaged around 29 ppg and 29 Rebs per game against Russell....wilt just didn’t have the same quality of teammates around him as Russell.

 

[Vols4us]

Some kryptonite...... wilt averaged around 29 ppg and 29 Rebs per game against Russell....wilt just didn’t have the same quality of teammates around him as Russell.

Yep - it's wild thinking that Russell "held" Wilt to those numbers - but back then that was great D against him. The entire O went through him and he was granted the freedom to score as much as he could. Wilt was an amazing athlete.

 

[m1al]

Some kryptonite...... wilt averaged around 29 ppg and 29 Rebs per game against Russell....wilt just didn’t have the same quality of teammates around him as Russell.

That's the plan when you have "one guy". Keep an eye on him, don't let him go crazy and shut the rest down...

 

[RikidyBones]

I posted this on VQ. Would be interested in the RF thoughts:

Just looking over the roster, who do you think gets drafted off of this team? I'm not going to count any of the freshman class because we haven't seen them (except Salter for reasons mentioned below), but just looking at potential, these are my thoughts:

No brainer
There's only one in this category unfortunately:

Cade Mays. He'll be picked in the first few rounds, probably the second next year.

Highly Likely:

HB/Milton/Salter. One of these three will be drafted off of this team if not more than one. I only say that because Heup's reputation. He will get one of these guys to the league. That's what he does. He develop's QB's.

Velus Jones. I believe that he's going to have a breakout year. Has the speed and measurables, played in a bad offense last year. He's going to put up big numbers in this offense and become a late round pick somewhere.

Jalin Hyatt. Again, elite measurables. Needs to add some size, but has all the speed. This is a kid who will be our number 1 receiver sooner rather than later. He's going to be a star in this offense with his speed and running Heup's system. Will be a pick in the first 3 rounds imo when he's eligible.

Darnell Wright. Kid has the talent, size, and mobility. Word out of camp is that he's having his best spring. 2 years under Elarbee and he will be picked and picked somewhere in rounds 2-4 imo.

Probable:

Tyler Baron. I believe this is another kid that has tons of talent and just needs development and experience. He's very strong, has the work ethic, and is already stepping up as a leader on this team. I expect big things from him over the next couple of years and I predict he ends up being taken in the draft.

Calloway/Holiday. Similar to the QB's above, one of these two, if not both, will end up being really good players here. Again, you can't teach 4.3 speed, and these two guys have it. They will be big players in this offense, if not this year, next year especially. Both have received rave reviews and will make an impact on the field. NFL teams love speed and these two guys have it. I bet one or both are picked up in the draft by the time they're done here.

Beckwith: Again, elite athlete. Whether he's a TE, RB, or receiver, Heup will find a way to get him the ball in space, and he's going to impress. He'll be a very good player here imo and will end up getting taken in the draft.

Bryson Eason. Has the size of a DE but the speed and quickness of a LB. He's going to have a breakout season this year on our DL and he's just a sophomore. 2 more years under Garner and he will be taken in the draft.

Tamarion McDonald. A guy we took a flyer on in order to get Eason. Will be starting at safety this year and has 3 years remaining. Has great ball skills, tackling ability, and instincts. Will be one of those guys that Willy Moe puts in the league if he continues to develop.

Jabari Small. A guy who was probably the best pure RB on our roster last year, but Jermy wouldn't play him. He's going to have a big year this year will have a chance to get drafted by the time he's finished at TN imo.

Spraggins. That dude is going to be a stud. Started some last year even as a freshman. I believe this kid will be a very good player in this league which will lead to him likely getting drafted. I mean, teams took long snappers last week. Spraggins is going to be a very good OG.

(Yes I know a lot of these are projections that's why they're in the probable category).

Needs a big year:

Alontae. Taylor has the speed and tackling ability. But if he wants to get drafted, he's going to have to truly breakout this year. I thought he was going to last year after the first few games when he was playing well, but he began struggling again. Hopefully Banks can get enough out of him that an NFL team takes a chance on him. Likely UDFA.

Princeton Fant. This is one that I asked the guys about in the chat last night. I believe he has a shot. He is a great athlete. Has speed, can run good routes, and has good hands, but has not played in a TE friendly offense and he had a QB who couldn't throw the ball over the middle. Once HB was inserted he became much more of a factor in the offense. Golesh really turned around the TE position at Iowa State when he was there. If he can do the same thing here, Princeton may have a shot with a breakout season. He's one to keep an eye on imo.

Young guys too early to tell:

We'll see what becomes of Big O, Morven Joseph, Roman Harrison, Elijah Simmons, and Cooper Mays,

Tldr

 

[butchna]

Some kryptonite...... wilt averaged around 29 ppg and 29 Rebs per game against Russell....wilt just didn’t have the same quality of teammates around him as Russell.

Wilt played for a Lakers squad that included Elgin Baylor and Jerry West. Played with All-Stars as a rookie on. Russell neutralized him at clutch time and made his own teammates better. Well known dynamic.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

That GSW team won 73 games? lmao who cares if they didn't have Durant. Anybody who counts those L's with KD against Lebron's legacy are delusional. 16-17/17-18 GSW's were the two most talented teams to ever grace a basketball court.

I guess Jordan doesn't deserve any credit for his rings considering he had arguably two of the best defenders of all time on his teams.

Way to reach, but I'm the delusional one. Okay.

The NBA championship isn't won in the regular season. Point is Lebron's legacy isn't anywhere near that of MJ, he bounced around and built super teams at every spot he was at to compete for championships. And despite doing so has a finals record of 4-6, what's even crazier is even with his 3 different super teams he hand picked he's never swept a Finals.

2007 NBA Finals Cavs vs Spurs
Result: Spurs win 4-0
2011 NBA Finals Heat vs Mavs
Result: Mavs win 4-2
2012 NBA Finals Heat Vs OKC
Result: Heat win 4-1
2013 NBA Finals Heat vs Spurs
Result: Heat win 4-3
2014 NBA Finals Heat Vs Spurs
Result: Spurs win 4-3
2015 NBA Finals Cavs vs GSW
Result: GSW win 4-2
2016 NBA Finals Cavs vs GSW
Result: Cavs win 4-3
2017 NBA Finals Cavs vs GSW
Result: GSW won 4-1
2018 NBA Finals Cavs vs GSW
Result: GSW won 4-0
2020 NBA Finals Lakers vs Heat
Result: Lakers won 4-2

 

[you]

NBA is dog ****. MJ would have a harder time just on new age athletic ability.

Lol at “new age athletic ability”

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Lol at “new age athletic ability”

I don't think the NBA has really taken huge leaps forward athletically compared to the 80s/90s era. Has the game changed, yeah it has. But if you think the stars of the 80s/90s wouldn't benefit from the way defense is played now (nearly not at all) then you're high as hell.

Now the 60s/70s era basketball players...I think you have a point, most wouldn't be nearly as dominate as they were in their day.

 

[SugarCC]

6 SB titles vs 2 SB titles though. Huge Peyton fanatic, but SugarCC is right not every great player gets to play for great teams. A few other great examples, Barry Sanders & Allen Iverson

But, with this thinking, MoCo, Terry Bradshaw is greater than Peyton; and, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli are just as good. The thought of that is laughable.

 

[drvenner]

100%

Most younger folks have recency bias. It's natural to do so, I did when I was younger as well. People forget free agency did not exist back in those days. So, using the number of championships to gauge player greatness is not valid. Other than drafted picks without a lottery like today, teams had to trade to get better and it happened infrequently, unlike today. If they had a superstar they kept him if they could afford him and he would use up a lot of the payroll. Professional team ownership was a hobby for the wealthy that often lost money, so they would keep a close watch on payroll. When television took root with professional sports it evolved.

I grew up a Cincinnati Royals fan, a franchise that had been moved from Rochester, NY. Most pro BB fans remember or have heard about the Big O. He played with a couple of really good players to form the nucleus of the team, Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry. Big O was a perineal AS and won the MVP. He and Lucas are in the HOF. When he was traded to the Bucks around 1970, the Royals future in Cincinnati become toast - he meant that much to the team. A little over a year later they were sold and moved to Kansas City, which was later moved and sold to ownership in Sacramento.

Still remember as kid sneaking my little transistor radio under my pillow at bed time to listen to a half or so of their games before falling asleep. Good times.

I believe Oscar Robertson AVERAGED a triple double for the whole season one year. Went to check and saw it is true. Also saw Russell Westbrook has done it four times. Holy cow.

 

[SugarCC]

100%

Most younger folks have recency bias. It's natural to do so, I did when I was younger as well. People forget free agency did not exist back in those days. So, using the number of championships to gauge player greatness is not valid. Other than drafted picks without a lottery like today, teams had to trade to get better and it happened infrequently, unlike today. If they had a superstar they kept him if they could afford him and he would use up a lot of the payroll. Professional team ownership was a hobby for the wealthy that often lost money, so they would keep a close watch on payroll. When television took root with professional sports it evolved.

I grew up a Cincinnati Royals fan, a franchise that had been moved from Rochester, NY. Most pro BB fans remember or have heard about the Big O. He played with a couple of really good players to form the nucleus of the team, Jerry Lucas and Wayne Embry. Big O was a perineal AS and won the MVP. He and Lucas are in the HOF. When he was traded to the Bucks around 1970, the Royals future in Cincinnati become toast - he meant that much to the team. A little over a year later they were sold and moved to Kansas City, which was later moved and sold to ownership in Sacramento.

Still remember as kid sneaking my little transistor radio under my pillow at bed time to listen to a half or so of their games before falling asleep. Good times.

Yeah, majority of younger people have no idea how absolutely great Robertson was. Born in Charlotte, TN, as well.

 

[UTMVol76]

But, with this thinking, MoCo, Terry Bradshaw is greater than Peyton; and, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli are just as good. The thought of that is laughable.

And Robert Horry is the greatest basketball player of the modern era.

 

[Vols4us]

I believe Oscar Robertson AVERAGED a triple double for the whole season one year. Went to check and saw it is true. Also saw Russell Westbrook has done it four times. Holy cow.

That may be the most amazing stat there is. Total domination.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

But, with this thinking, MoCo, Terry Bradshaw is greater than Peyton; and, Ben Roethlisberger and Eli are just as good. The thought of that is laughable.

That's adding extra to an argument I'm not making.

Tom Brady is top 3 in every major career record that exist, so is Peyton. The line between them is razor thin, so when you look at 7 SB titles vs 2 that's really the only separation that exist between them.

 

[SugarCC]

Peyton has a winning record against Brady in the playoffs. Peyton's problem was typically the defense, plus he was quite lackluster in the playoffs and big games as well.

True, Manning could have played better in some of those games; but, it's lost how great he played in the games the D didn't show. Also, people remember the int in the SB against the Saints; but, Manning played a hell of a game, for what little time he was on the field...the D could never get off the field...at one point, the Saints had the ball for an hour of TV time, that's insane. Too, people forget the Garcon drop that would've been a TD, and put the game away.

 

[UTMVol76]

That's adding extra to an argument I'm not making.

Tom Brady is top 3 in every major career record that exist, so is Peyton. The line between them is razor thin, so when you look at 7 SB titles vs 2 that's really the only separation that exist between them.

Here's another way I'd ask this question:

You get to pick one QB from when they were 21-22 years old to start your franchise. No coaches in place yet, no other players, they will all be 'drafted' later.

Which do you choose: Peyton or Brady?

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Here's another way I'd ask this question:

You get to pick one QB from when they were 21-22 years old to start your franchise. No coaches in place yet, no other players, they will all be 'drafted' later.

Which do you choose: Peyton or Brady?

I've already answered the question, and I'm not jumping into a debate that has ZERO to do with the original comment.

 

[UTMVol76]

I've already answer the question, and I'm not jumping into a debate that has ZERO to do with the original comment.

I quoted you, but that was meant as general question not specifically to you (didn't mean to offend). My thinking as that certain QB's like Brady and Montana became great with mentors and systems which took them to a next level. Then there are QB's like Manning and Elway who had the greatness from the start and were going to be great in any system but were hampered more in their careers by being drafted by teams who weren't as good, had inferior talent around them (to start), and inferior coaching at times, but their greatness was able to overcome even that.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

Tldr

Knew this was coming. And knew it would be you lol

 

[SugarCC]

That's adding extra to an argument I'm not making.

Tom Brady is top 3 in every major career record that exist, so is Peyton. The line between them is razor thin, so when you look at 7 SB titles vs 2 that's really the only separation that exist between them.

Brees and Brady also played/have played longer. Brady, while being a massive part of it, played 20 seasons for a dynasty, and the greatest football coach there is, with some of the greatest defenses the NFL has ever seen. Manning took 4 different coaches to the Super Bowl; and, had, maybe, 1 or 2 defenses in the top 10 to 15 of a season, not including the great D he had in Denver the last season. Give him a D just half that good, for the majority of his career, he could've put a ring on each finger of both hands.

The separation, for me, is the revolutionizing of the game. Manning did, and Brady, Brees, and others followed; and, each one of them has talked about it.

 

[Bassmaster_Vol]

I remember you guys crying about me brining basketball talk in here. Wah, wah, wah, is all I heard. One dude even cussed me out he got so mad at my dead on accurate statements about Lebum. And yet, y'all are talking basketball and I bring some actual football discussion, and y'all don't want anything to do with it. Hypocrites. The lot of you.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

I quoted you, but that was meant as general question not specifically to you (didn't mean to offend). My thinking as that certain QB's like Brady and Montana became great with mentors and systems which took them to a next level. Then there are QB's like Manning and Elway who had the greatness from the start and were going to be great in any system but were hampered more in their careers by being drafted by teams who weren't as good, had inferior talent around them (to start), and inferior coaching at times, but their greatness was able to overcome even that.

Not offended, but Peyton Manning's my favorite player to ever lace 'em up. It's never a "who" am I taking.

But even with that being true when the debate is "who is the best ever" you have to look at their results from their career. Cause based on potential and "equal teams around them" it's going to come down to individual preferences. I know people who would say Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Joe Montana, John Elway, etc.

 

[SugarCC]

Here's another way I'd ask this question:

You get to pick one QB from when they were 21-22 years old to start your franchise. No coaches in place yet, no other players, they will all be 'drafted' later.

Which do you choose: Peyton or Brady?

No debating who to take. Manning saved, carried, and made a monster of a franchise and city.

Yes, Brady winning this last SB with Tampa moved him into my Top 5; but, Manning had already been there, done that.

 

[engineerVOL]

A glimpse of Wilt's rocket boosters...