Recruiting Forum Football Talk III

[thistime]

Stats are great but they went undrafted. It’s not like they suddenly started trying hard after college. CWM just didn’t help those guys get better.

We need to remember that only about 2% of college players ever make the NFL and even though we think since somebody plays at UT they should make it, few ever do and have long careers. Two or Three years at anything isn't a long career and that's about it, if they ever make it to begin with.

 

[BruinVol]

Any word on LB coach ?

 

[Rishvol]

"The1900's was different millennium"

Weeeeellllllllll

 

[MoCo_Vol]

i don't know about their salaries etc, and not really concerned about it.

to me, again, it was just the notion that those two were even capable of making an NFL squad based on their performances here....

False narrative though, since both were quickly signed to NFL squads.

The knock is neither had performances here to get drafted, and that's a legit point.

Coleman was the only TN player invited to the Combine in 2014 and both of them were projected late round picks. Neither got drafted but were signed as UFAs quickly and the rest is history. I don't think either is in the NFL without WM though, to say so otherwise is just speculation because he recruited/found both and they saw plenty of action here and stacked up good numbers. The Dooley era ending as it did and Butch's success not hitting until year 3 hurt our player draft stocks.

Cause the NFL drafts from successful teams and players with the right intangibles and production.

 

[jakez4ut]

Feather in the cap of WM more than it's not though.

Neither of them is in the league if he wasn't developing them. Moseley had 6 offers, Kentucky and NC State being the only other two worth note and that was in 2014 before either of those programs was winning much of anything. Coleman had just 2 offers when he came outta HS in 2011 according to 247 profile, us & Kentucky.

that's one way of looking at it. sure.

again, i'm just saying on face value, when you think back to how those two played on a regular basis here....."NFL Cornerback" wasn't what immediately came to mind when describing them back then....

that's all.

did WM see something that very few else did? maybe, it's certainly possible.... @volbeast33 pointed out they may not be the best examples considering where they were coming from, to where they ended up (lower rated guys getting to the NFL). I can see that point, and you're right there with him, albeit by a different path.....

point being, i'll agree with you both...and still say i was surprised either of them made an NFL roster, and have had productive careers...i never thought either of them got A LOT better during their time here....not so much as to say they were NFL caliber corners/db's that is.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Highest paid nickel.
Detroit Lions Make Justin Coleman the Highest Paid Nickel Back in NFL History - NFL Gridiron Gab

Which isn't "highest paid DB" what you originally said.

 

[jakez4ut]

False narrative though, since both were quickly signed to NFL squads.

The knock is neither had performances here to get drafted, and that's a legit point.

Coleman was the only TN player invited to the Combine in 2014 and both of them were projected late round picks. Neither got drafted but were signed as UFAs quickly and the rest is history. I don't think either is in the NFL without WM though, to say so otherwise is just speculation because he recruited/found both and they saw plenty of action here and stacked up good numbers. The Dooley era ending as it did and Butch's success not hitting until year 3 hurt our player draft stocks.

Cause the NFL drafts from successful teams and players with the right intangibles and production.

how is it a false narrative? they were both undrafted free agents, right? and both had to "make" the team, right?

having measurables is one thing. having ability is another.

i'm not going out on a limb by saying neither one looked like NFL corners/db's when they played here, based on their performance.

 

[VolGee4]

OK isn’t enough. Both are having nice NFL careers. Should have been developed more while they were here. We need coaches who will develop. Hope Banks can fill that role for the whole secondary.

The funny thing though is that Moseley was a QB in high school. He was a great find by that staff. In hindsight, people have criticized his college development, but they are the ones who gave him a P5 offer and put him at that position.

 

[thistime]

NFL has been weird about drafting players from UT. So many bums were drafted over Marquez, shy tuttle, Kyle philips, etc.

I think being a losing program hurt those players draft stock more than anything

Those NFL scouts look at things your average fan doesn't. They usually are looking for a specific skill set to match what their team needs. I think that is why so many NFL players come from smaller schools and are players we, as the average fan, have never heard of.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I don’t love the Martinez hire either but these coaches must know something

Bet @Ron Swanson $100 he'll be a complete failure.

 

[nicksjuzunk]

I couldn’t care less if we start a sack of taters at QB as long as is the best guy we’ve got.

What I’ve seen since Dobbs graduated defies reason

 

[MoCo_Vol]

that's one way of looking at it. sure.

again, i'm just saying on face value, when you think back to how those two played on a regular basis here....."NFL Cornerback" wasn't what immediately came to mind when describing them back then....

that's all.

did WM see something that very few else did? maybe, it's certainly possible.... @volbeast33 pointed out they may not be the best examples considering where they were coming from, to where they ended up (lower rated guys getting to the NFL). I can see that point, and you're right there with him, albeit by a different path.....

point being, i'll agree with you both...and still say i was surprised either of them made an NFL roster, and have had productive careers...i never thought either of them got A LOT better during their time here....not so much as to say they were NFL caliber corners/db's that is.

There's lost of players from the Dooley era into early Butch years that I'm surprised have made careers for themselves in the NFL. But the NFL scouts looked at how bad our teams were and undervalued our players coming out because of it. If you can get a solid DB as a UFA without having to use a draft pick you will always do that & take a chance, the fact those guys were able to hang has everything to do with how they were developed in college, because the NFL isn't in that market more time is spent finding the guys and less developing them.

If you want to point to some headscratchers from WM era I'd look at these guys specifically.



Nationally rated top 250 guys usually end up in the league, and although he wasn't the Primary on all the guys to see TK, Byrd, Osborne, Abernathy, Martin, Everett, Payne not playing on Sundays would be where you could ask the questions. He can develop guys has done it with plenty of 2/3 star talent, but why can't he get the most outta the higher rated guys?

 

[Ron Swanson]

Wasn't mosley an undersized 2 star that he helped get into the league though?

That’s right he was a 150lb QB in HS.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

NFL has been weird about drafting players from UT. So many bums were drafted over Marquez, shy tuttle, Kyle philips, etc.

I think being a losing program hurt those players draft stock more than anything

Injuries derailed Kyle and Shy. The NFL preoccupation with certain numbers derailed Marquez.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

how is it a false narrative? they were both undrafted free agents, right? and both had to "make" the team, right?

having measurables is one thing. having ability is another.

i'm not going out on a limb by saying neither one looked like NFL corners/db's when they played here, based on their performance.

It's a false narrative because both got projected to be drafted, one was invited to the combine and both now are in the league. So their play here did mean they were capable of being on NFL squads, cause their NFL production isn't what got them in the league what they did at UT and how they looked in camps did both those things were related to WM developing them.

Too often fans seem to only hang on a few negative memories of players, I like to pull up the numbers because memories aren't used when the NFL evaluates talent production & tape is used.

 

[BarrythesnoUT]

Love how he stood in there and threw accurately even when he knew he was going to get hit.

 

[Ulysees E. McGill]

There's lost of players from the Dooley era into early Butch years that I'm surprised have made careers for themselves in the NFL. But the NFL scouts looked at how bad our teams were and undervalued our players coming out because of it. If you can get a solid DB as a UFA without having to use a draft pick you will always do take that chance, the fact those guys were able to hang has everything to do with how they were developed in college, because the NFL isn't in that market more time is spent finding the guys and less developing them.

If you want to point to some headscratchers from WM era I'd look at these guys specifically.

View attachment 352546

Nationally rated top 250 guys usually end up in the league, and although he wasn't the Primary on all the guys to see TK, Byrd, Osborne, Abernathy, Martin, Everett, Payne not playing on Sundays would be where you could ask the questions. He can develop guys has done it with plenty of 2/3 star talent, but why can't he get the most outta the higher rated guys?

Why are we sooooo cursed with underperforming players?

 

[Kingston Vol]

Why are we sooooo cursed with underperforming players?

It's probably just a lack of continuity in regards to coaching staff and schemes.

I'm not arguing we've had good coaches or schemes, but you can't see what a player truly is without consistency.

 

[nicksjuzunk]

Not sure if anyone posted this. This is a fascinating tweet.

Like North Texas did this year, it would be fascinating to watch some smaller programs completely ax their recruiting budget and just pull 100% from the portal every year.

With so many players desperate now that they are trapped in the portal you’d think a really small school may actually tremendously benefit from that model

 

[bignewt]

Why are we sooooo cursed with underperforming players?

Simple. Because we are too focused on recruiting stars and not development.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Any word on LB coach ?

Don't you go stirring up trouble!


Tomorrow.

 

[MoCo_Vol]

Why are we sooooo cursed with underperforming players?

Yeah that's what chaps me most, specifically about the Butch era.

We had the results, were recruiting the studs, and developing duds... like what the hell? Feel like maybe that staff wasn't good enough at de-recruiting some of the divas they were courting during recruiting. What ya gotta find isn't the 5 star hearts, you need to find the 5 stars with the 2 star heart.

 

[jakez4ut]

There's lost of players from the Dooley era into early Butch years that I'm surprised have made careers for themselves in the NFL. But the NFL scouts looked at how bad our teams were and undervalued our players coming out because of it. If you can get a solid DB as a UFA without having to use a draft pick you will always do take that chance, the fact those guys were able to hang has everything to do with how they were developed in college, because the NFL isn't in that market more time is spent finding the guys and less developing them.

If you want to point to some headscratchers from WM era I'd look at these guys specifically.

View attachment 352546

Nationally rated top 250 guys usually end up in the league, and although he wasn't the Primary on all the guys to see TK, Byrd, Osborne, Abernathy, Martin, Everett, Payne not playing on Sundays would be where you could ask the questions. He can develop guys has done it with plenty of 2/3 star talent, but why can't he get the most outta the higher rated guys?

i got no idea. but it does beg the question....if he's credited for developing EM and JC from nothing to NFL caliber....you'd think with the learning/development curve being a bit shorted with most of the guys on that list, he'd have a more successful hit rate.

so, how much credit should he get, either way? is it his fault these guys aren't in the NFL? is it his development that led EM and JC to the NFL?

the truth is in the middle somewhere, and i think you do credit WM for finding guys that had zero expectations and getting them to the point they're considered by NFL teams....he has to have a part in that....no argument. but the same could then be true about his overall developmental skills as the more skilled guys apparently hit their ceilings faster under him, and maybe that's just because he is only capable of taking a player only 'so far' in the process......?

i think all of that can be true....i don't 'know' that any of it is.....

and i wasn't really intending on getting in to a 'thing' about this. at the end of the day, i'm happy for EM and JC and I'm rooting for CWM to be a bad azz DB coach and recruiter.

 

[scvolfan7]

Those NFL scouts look at things your average fan doesn't. They usually are looking for a specific skill set to match what their team needs. I think that is why so many NFL players come from smaller schools and are players we, as the average fan, have never heard of.

For sure but all those guys were worth at least 6th or 7th round draft picks

 

[NMVol]

Don't you go stirring up trouble!


Tomorrow.

It's Steele, yesterday?