Recent statements from Dave Hart have me very excited

#176
#176
I'm hoping we are not back to square 1 after this season. It's down to this season. Games must be won.
 
#177
#177
sjt18 said:
-That would be one of the most incredibly stupid PR moves in history... it would have the effect of saying, "We offered $5 million but this guy found the situation so bad that he turned us down anyway". If you accept that both sides want plausible deniability of interest... then surely you see how a rejection of this level would be the WORST.




-Sorry. I usually do it very quickly but you are apparently responding while I am editing. Again, I sincerely apologize... nothing intentional just more thoughts after I hit submit.
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-I just don't see a problem. Using orangeblood's link from earlier, UCLA didn't acquire any backlash or negative perception for getting turned down by Peterson.

I think it shows a willingness to pay for the best that you can get. Everyone already knows how far we have fallen, they can check ESPN and look at results. But offering a lot of money shows how much we want to change it. Even if turned down, it doesn't say anything that no one doesn't know already.


-No problem. I like to respond to everything and was having trouble because of your edits. Trying to catch up now
 
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#178
#178
sjt18 said:
Seriously? I believe you are one of the ones who argued that DD could not hire good assistants because they could be gone after a year, right? But KB was going to hire someone who could recruit great players without a guarantee of having a job at all? An argument being convenient or supportive of your conclusion... does not make it a good argument.

-The staff has recruited well. Maybe they would have performed better with better circumstances... but we will never know. What we do know is that they have rebuilt the roster with some very good players.
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You are correct. It is a similar situation. But it can be done, as proven by Dooley this year. They would have a job for one year, like what could happen this year.


-True. They have. Now they have to show they can win. Just curious, what do you think the timeline for Dooley is? What gets him '13?
 
#179
#179
orangeblood79 said:
-"less" is putting the situation that DD took over mildly. "Bare" is more like it.


-Emotion usually gets the best of people on this subject. While I think Kiffin and co. were big hires, hindsight being 20/20, they were the wrong hire.



-If by "9" you mean, 8 regular season wins + a bowl win, then yes, I agree but 8 wins total will be accepted, IMO.
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- I was stating that some coaches are known for getting more out of less than others. Whether it be systems, or motivational factors, some coaches can compete with less talent. Dooley isn't one with a system like that. He wants to line up and just be better, which, of course, couldn't be done.

- Initial hires, I could see your point. We could have gone a different, proven direction.

But with his results here, and the eye test, it is easy to see that Kiffin knew what he was doing. He was an offensive minded coach that turned Jonathon "Worm Burner" Crompton into a draftable QB. He had 265 pound walk-ons on the OL. And from a publicity standpoint, they were good too. Oh, and their recruiting was top notch.

-And finally. No I mean 9 regular season wins. He has to beat someone he isn't supposed to. UF and USC have comparable talent to us right now. UGA has better talent but they are still beatable. Bama is a loss, plain and simple. 9-4 with a bowl loss and I'd give him another year to do it again.
 
#182
#182
King Webbsticles said:
- Maybe our ideas of struggling to recruit differ.:dunno:
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I really hope not.

UT's staff has to put in more hours and spend more money... and they have to be better recruiters to get the same results as the schools they expect to compete with. ALL of the usual top tier schools in the SEC except for UT have better home state talent and/or historic ties to areas with great talent. For instance Auburn has longstanding pipelines into south GA and FL due to location.

I think Dooley has begun to try to make UT to GA what OU is to Texas. The recent hires make me believe he wants to be the first choice of NC and SC kids... UT has been that in the past.

To the extent that a school like UT really needs pipelines built on multi-layered coaching relationships... it is important that you are wrong about Dooley and he succeeds at turning the Vol program around. The next coach either uses a shotgun like Kiffin/Fulmer or else starts building relationships all over again.

When Fulmer was good, he made some of that work for him. He had a few pipelines. He got a bunch of good OL's from Lovejoy HS in GA but toward the end GT and others were beating him there.
 
#183
#183
King Webbsticles said:
Hot damn. My fingers hurt.
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#184
#184
King Webbsticles said:
You are correct. It is a similar situation. But it can be done, as proven by Dooley this year. They would have a job for one year, like what could happen this year.
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But it wasn't a similar situation. DD's hires at least get this fall and a buyout if it goes bad. Anyone who KB hired could have and in all likelihood would have been gone as soon as the permanent coach was hired.

-True. They have. Now they have to show they can win. Just curious, what do you think the timeline for Dooley is? What gets him '13?
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What I "think" is not at all what I want or believe should be the case. IMHO, MH's mistake was not giving DD more money up front instead of the ridiculous year 3 buyout. It may not be reasonable for DD to complete a turnaround in 3 years... but it is a reasonable enough amount of time to demonstrate direction.

I more or less agree with you on what "should" be the standard. Nine wins or so. I think the talent is there. I think he's now had two good shots at assembling a staff. The schedule is by far the lightest he will have faced in his first 3 years. Depth is still a problem that could prevent a championship run... but not a 9-4 record.

I see 6 very likely wins- 4 OOC's plus VU and UK. He really only needs to win 3 of the 6 remaining "competitive" games to make nine. (Bama is a long shot). I don't think it is asking too much to beat someone decent at this point. On paper, he has better talent in the passing game than any other SEC team... the best pass protecting OL, a top tier QB and quality backups, and the most talented receiving corps in the SEC.

I "think" however that due to the buyout he gets another year with 7 wins. I do believe that would make a championship or something on that order of impressiveness a requirement for '13... but that is my watershed mark. Maybe it is really 8... but I think 7.
 
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#186
#186
sjt18 said:
I really hope not.

UT's staff has to put in more hours and spend more money... and they have to be better recruiters to get the same results as the schools they expect to compete with. ALL of the usual top tier schools in the SEC except for UT have better home state talent and/or historic ties to areas with great talent. For instance Auburn has longstanding pipelines into south GA and FL due to location.

I think Dooley has begun to try to make UT to GA what OU is to Texas. The recent hires make me believe he wants to be the first choice of NC and SC kids... UT has been that in the past.

To the extent that a school like UT really needs pipelines built on multi-layered coaching relationships... it is important that you are wrong about Dooley and he succeeds at turning the Vol program around. The next coach either uses a shotgun like Kiffin/Fulmer or else starts building relationships all over again.

When Fulmer was good, he made some of that work for him. He had a few pipelines. He got a bunch of good OL's from Lovejoy HS in GA but toward the end GT and others were beating him there.
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-I agree with this. This makes it harder to recruit, no doubt.

I made an example in another post. I think of struggling as getting LSU type talent to come to Tulane.

We are put behind the 8ball for sure, but with our resources we overcome nicely. Rarely do we have classes that have more than one or two projects.


-It really depends on who the next coach would be. A big name would make for easier recognition. That doesn't mean that we have to have a big name coach. There are some that aren't huge names that would work well here.
 
#188
#188
sjt18 said:
-But it wasn't a similar situation. DD's hires at least get this fall and a buyout if it goes bad. Anyone who KB hired could have and in all likelihood would have been gone as soon as the permanent coach was hired.



What I "think" is not at all what I want or believe should be the case. IMHO, MH's mistake was not giving DD more money up front instead of the ridiculous year 3 buyout. It may not be reasonable for DD to complete a turnaround in 3 years... but it is a reasonable enough amount of time to demonstrate direction.

I more or less agree with you on what "should" be the standard. Nine wins or so. I think the talent is there. I think he's now had two good shots at assembling a staff. The schedule is by far the lightest he will have faced in his first 3 years. Depth is still a problem that could prevent a championship run... but not a 9-4 record.

I see 6 very likely wins- 4 OOC's plus VU and UK. He really only needs to win 3 of the 6 remaining "competitive" games to make nine. (Bama is a long shot). I don't think it is asking too much to beat someone decent at this point. On paper, he has better talent in the passing game than any other SEC team... the best pass protecting OL, a top tier QB and quality backups, and the most talented receiving corps in the SEC.

I "think" however that due to the buyout he gets another year with 7 wins. I do believe that would make a championship or something on that order of impressiveness a requirement for '13... but that is my watershed mark. Maybe it is really 8... but I think 7.
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- I was under the assumption that as interim HC, Brown would coach the next year, ala OSU, while we were searching for a long term candidate. In that world, they would still get at least one year. Also, if KB did better than expected, you could just release the interim tag.

-We are definitely in agreement that Hamilton made a stupid mistake with the contract/buyout. I'm surprised to see the agreement in expectations too.

How much does the buyout drop after NSD next year?

I think worst case scenario is out-talenting teams to win 7, in your case, and stay another year. Then, IF the WR's and Bray leave, we are back to 5-7 or 6-6.
 
#192
#192
King Webbsticles said:
- I was stating that some coaches are known for getting more out of less than others. Whether it be systems, or motivational factors, some coaches can compete with less talent. Dooley isn't one with a system like that. He wants to line up and just be better, which, of course, couldn't be done.

- Initial hires, I could see your point. We could have gone a different, proven direction.

But with his results here, and the eye test, it is easy to see that Kiffin knew what he was doing. He was an offensive minded coach that turned Jonathon "Worm Burner" Crompton into a draftable QB. He had 265 pound walk-ons on the OL. And from a publicity standpoint, they were good too. Oh, and their recruiting was top notch.

-And finally. No I mean 9 regular season wins. He has to beat someone he isn't supposed to. UF and USC have comparable talent to us right now. UGA has better talent but they are still beatable. Bama is a loss, plain and simple. 9-4 with a bowl loss and I'd give him another year to do it again.
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that class is totally busted. history says, at Tennessee their recruiting was suspect, at best... imo

:hi:
 
#193
#193
King Webbsticles said:
- I was under the assumption that as interim HC, Brown would coach the next year, ala OSU, while we were searching for a long term candidate. In that world, they would still get at least one year. Also, if KB did better than expected, you could just release the interim tag.
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It does not appear that UT or anyone else thought Kippy had that kind of ability. It is unlikely that UT would have entered the next season with an "interim" HC. Uncertainty is deadly.

Also, everyone has a good coach if not a big name coach in the SEC. It comes down to relationships... and especially if you want kids to pass 3 or 4 good schools on their 8-12 hour drive to attend your school.

-We are definitely in agreement that Hamilton made a stupid mistake with the contract/buyout. I'm surprised to see the agreement in expectations too.
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In the real world... it is always necessary to manage the difference between what we wish were true and reality. I apply the same rules to the opinions I express here when commenting or trying to predict what is going on inside the program.

There are certain mgt/leadership traits that are recognizable by the signs/outcomes we see. I have no question that Hart has laid clear expectations in front of Dooley... or that he is building a relationship and trying to make Dooley "the guy".

You pretty clearly see the costs of not making a change but do not seem to see the cost of making a change or the benefit of making it work.

How much does the buyout drop after NSD next year?
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$1 million I think. I believe it drops to $4 million from $5 million.

I think worst case scenario is out-talenting teams to win 7, in your case, and stay another year. Then, IF the WR's and Bray leave, we are back to 5-7 or 6-6.
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I haven't looked at the schedule that far out but must think more of UT's young talent than you do. I like Croom, Howard, and Bowles coming up behind the 3 UT has now. Others will be added too. If the run game is ever to improve under Dooley then surely it would be with a talented OL made up of Jr's and Srs with experienced RB's, right? The D should be in much better shape develomemtally, roster-wise, depth-wise, and schematically.

The problem IMO is if he only gets say 7 or even 8 wins this fall then the "hot seat" chatter will peak. A difficult recruiting situation could become all but impossible.

He NEEDS a steady stream of talent until the program is firmly reestablished.
 
#194
#194
BTW, Kiffin inherited these kinds of Srs: a RB who would be drafted and win an NFL starting job before getting injured, 3 OL's who would be drafted and another (non-starter) who got a tryout, a QB talented enough to be drafted, a DT who was drafted, Eric Berry, Dennis Rogan.... He inherited Jones and Moore at WR and Stocker at TE- Juniors.

He inherited FAR more than Dooley, played a weaker schedule than either of Dooley's, and STILL only finished with on less loss. I am not trying to draw a conclusion... just establishing that you CAN'T claim that Kiffin did a better on the field coaching job than Dooley based on the past 3 seasons.
 
#195
#195
volfan73 said:
that class is totally busted. history says, at Tennessee their recruiting was suspect, at best... imo

:hi:
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To be fair, that class was mostly Fulmer. Recruiting is a two year cycle usually. Kiffin had 2 months trying to use Fulmer's foundation. Dooley's task was harder but Kiffin laid a better foundation as well.
 
#198
#198
sjt18 said:
-It does not appear that UT or anyone else thought Kippy had that kind of ability. It is unlikely that UT would have entered the next season with an "interim" HC. Uncertainty is deadly.

Also, everyone has a good coach if not a big name coach in the SEC. It comes down to relationships... and especially if you want kids to pass 3 or 4 good schools on their 8-12 hour drive to attend your school.


In the real world... it is always necessary to manage the difference between what we wish were true and reality. I apply the same rules to the opinions I express here when commenting or trying to predict what is going on inside the program.

There are certain mgt/leadership traits that are recognizable by the signs/outcomes we see. I have no question that Hart has laid clear expectations in front of Dooley... or that he is building a relationship and trying to make Dooley "the guy".

You pretty clearly see the costs of not making a change but do not seem to see the cost of making a change or the benefit of making it work.

$1 million I think. I believe it drops to $4 million from $5 million.


I haven't looked at the schedule that far out but must think more of UT's young talent than you do. I like Croom, Howard, and Bowles coming up behind the 3 UT has now. Others will be added too. If the run game is ever to improve under Dooley then surely it would be with a talented OL made up of Jr's and Srs with experienced RB's, right? The D should be in much better shape develomemtally, roster-wise, depth-wise, and schematically.

The problem IMO is if he only gets say 7 or even 8 wins this fall then the "hot seat" chatter will peak. A difficult recruiting situation could become all but impossible.

He NEEDS a steady stream of talent until the program is firmly reestablished.
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-I do see SOME negatives in another change. I just see the benefits outweighing the negatives by so much that it isn't a big deal.

- It isn't that I don't trust the talent coming in. It is pretty good in some positions. I have questions regarding the ability to coach up the talent. Take example the running game, which got worse with the exact same personnel. The D should improve greatly with the talent coming in and the experience. The schedule is difficult too, unless we buy the Oregon game out.
 
#200
#200
sjt18 said:
Do you really not understand how that process works?

No one turned the job down. No one was offered the job... not officially.

The PR images of both coaches and programs are to be preserved. They work through hiring consultants and agents so that both can deny interest if it breaks down. They talk without talking right up to the point of making a deal. Muschamp's agent wouldn't have even answered the phone for $2 million.

You can be absolutely certain that the money floated for other candidates was much more than Dooley got.
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i am not to sure muschamp is better than dooley that being said we got the same coach or better for cheaper look at florida and muschamp had no headcoach experience like dooley did
 
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