Question for volwarrior33 and SGMVols

#277
#277
VegasVol said:
1. This would take pages of posts, but here's one short-cut -- of the remaining uncommitted highly rated players, far more are in the states of Georgia, Florida & South Carolina than Tennessee, and almost all are heavily considering their in-state program. We only have 2 Rivals-250 players listed as "high" on Tennessee at the moment according to Rivals;

2. Ignore the ratings, and just look at which coaches offered whom -- we finish 6th in the SEC by almost any of those measurements as well. Finishing 6th in the SEC according to Rivals, and ESPN, and various consensus ratings publicly available on the net, as well as finishing 6th in the SEC by measuring recruits according to which coaches recruited whom. Do you really think we'd prefer not to have the 4/5* recruits we offered but turned us down?

3a. High 3* and low 4* is not as good as high 4* and low 5*, which is why we're 6th in the SEC in recruiting rankings across most of the recruiting ranking landscape.

3b. Of our 14 out-of-state high school commitments, 9 were not even offered by their in-state SEC school.

3c. Generally, players with NFL-caliber athleticism for the following traits:
High 3*/4*/5*
WR: >200 lb (none)
RB: >200lb/4.5 (none)
TE: >235/<4.7 (none)
OL: >285 lb/<5.2 (1)
DT: >285lb (1)
DE: >240lb/4.65 (none)
LB: >215/4.5 or >230/4.6 (none)
CB: 4.4 or faster (1)
S: >195/4.5 (0)

That's 3 decently-rated players with the preferred NFL athleticism for their position, which would also place us about 6th in the SEC in recruiting.
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Your expectations for Dooley at this point in the game are so unrealistic and unfair. No one would have had an easy time landing a top 10 or top 5 recruiting class at Tennessee at this point in the game, given everything that has happened in the last five years. Remember, we don't have a full roster of 85 scholarship players. We can't keep wasting our time competing with other schools for elite prospects (not good prospects, ELITE prospects). Our focus is to fill needs, not make our class look attractive (no homo). So looking at stars will be a waste of time. Once we fill the roster and create a winning product the field, higher-ranked prospects will notice, and they will more than likely list Tennessee as an option. That's where we are. Besides, Dooley and the gang have done an incredible job finding and acquiring underrated talent.
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#278
#278
Ravenheart said:
Your expectations for Dooley at this point in the game are so unrealistic and unfair. No one would have had an easy time landing a top 10 or top 5 recruiting class at Tennessee at this point in the game, given everything that has happened in the last five years. Remember, we don't have a full roster of 85 scholarship players. We can't keep wasting our time competing with other schools for elite prospects (not good prospects, ELITE prospects). Our focus is to fill needs, not make our class look attractive (no homo). So looking at stars will be a waste of time. Once we fill the roster and create a winning product the field, higher-ranked prospects will notice, and they will more than likely list Tennessee as an option. That's where we are. Besides, Dooley and the gang have done an incredible job finding and acquiring underrated talent.
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The trouble with this plan is that you need those elite prospects in order to field the winning team. You're looking at it backwards. You win because you have a team full of elite players, not win first and then get the elite talent. That's why UT needs an ace recruiter as it's coach at this stage in the game. We're not ever going to get any better if this mediocre recruiting continues.
 
#279
#279
volwarrior33 said:
Kiffin obviously left us at a bad time and contributed to the poor shape of the program, but he was far less responsible for the holes on the roster and is far more responsible for the roster's bright spots than Phailure. It's hard to argue that Kiffin brought us good players that are currently on the roster.
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Kiffin's '09 class has had unusually high attrition... so yes, he is almost as responsible as Fulmer. Fulmer's last few recruiting efforts were really lackluster. But the kneejerk defense of Kiffin from some of you guys is laughable.

I know, I know... some of you give him credit for players signed last year AFTER he left but I don't and won't. Kids don't sign BECAUSE of a HC after that coach leaves. He gets credit for the EE's and there was definitely some quality there.

If a guy who won over 75% of the games he coached in is a "Phailure" then what do you call a guy who has won 43%?
 
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#280
#280
VegasVol said:
3c. Generally, players with NFL-caliber athleticism for the following traits:
High 3*/4*/5*
WR: >200 lb (none)
RB: >200lb/4.5 (none)
TE: >235/<4.7 (none)
OL: >285 lb/<5.2 (1)
DT: >285lb (1)
DE: >240lb/4.65 (none)
LB: >215/4.5 or >230/4.6 (none)
CB: 4.4 or faster (1)
S: >195/4.5 (0)

That's 3 decently-rated players with the preferred NFL athleticism for their position, which would also place us about 6th in the SEC in recruiting.
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:eek:lol::eek:lol::eek:lol::eek:lol::lolabove::eek:lol::eek:lol::eek:lol:
 
#281
#281
General Jack said:
Did they de-commit when Dooley was hired or retain their commitment?
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Bray and Milton had no choice, they practiced with Kiffin and Tennessee for the CFA Bowl and were bound to Tennessee regardless of the hire.

James, Smith, and Miller were all on campus on that infamous night and were all early enrollees.
 
#282
#282
bleedorange0037 said:
The trouble with this plan is that you need those elite prospects in order to field the winning team. You're looking at it backwards. You win because you have a team full of elite players, not win first and then get the elite talent. That's why UT needs an ace recruiter as it's coach at this stage in the game. We're not ever going to get any better if this mediocre recruiting continues.
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Actually we need a full roster first, which is why you fill your class with good prospects that you are confident will still be here in 3 years and won't leave/be kicked off/transfer. You address the depth needs first. Plus, hiring an elite recruiter can only do so much. You also have to be able to coach em up.

Fulmer had plenty of top-5 classes. Richt has had plenty of great classes. But the product on the field was less than stellar. So an elite recruiter is only as good as his ability to coach.
 
#283
#283
bleedorange0037 said:
The trouble with this plan is that you need those elite prospects in order to field the winning team. You're looking at it backwards. You win because you have a team full of elite players, not win first and then get the elite talent. That's why UT needs an ace recruiter as it's coach at this stage in the game. We're not ever going to get any better if this mediocre recruiting continues.
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No. You demonstrate you know what an elite player looks like then the recruiting svcs start giving your former 5.7 3* players 5.8 4*.

Do you seriously think that if Williams and/or Randolph were UF or Bama commits they wouldn't have 4*? Randolph in particular would probably be a 5.9.

Talent wins. Not recruiting stars. When a team gets recruiting stars, they usually have talent. However, a staff that knows talent when they see it can build a great team without "stars".
 
#284
#284
sjt18 said:
Kiffin's '09 class has had unusually high attrition... so yes, he is almost as responsible as Fulmer. Fulmer's last few recruiting efforts were really lackluster. But the kneejerk defense of Kiffin from some of you guys is laughable.

I know, I know... some of you give him credit for players signed last year AFTER he left but I don't and won't. Kids don't sign BECAUSE of a HC after that coach leaves. He gets credit for the EE's and there was definitely some quality there.

If a guy who won over 75% of the games he coached in is a "Phailure" then what do you call a guy who has won 43%?
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Dooley has won 46% of his games, not 43. Fulmer's 75 may be solid, but his last 10 years speak for themselves. Kiffin has won 58% of his games, taking over one team coming off a 5-7 season and one team that the NCAA nuked.

I would not choose Fulmer, Kiffin, or Dooley to be my coach unless I was forced to take one of them. If I was I would take Kiffin, simply because he is the best recruiter right now of the three by far, putting the next coach in the best possible position.
 
#285
#285
615 Vol said:
So you expect high school kids to have NFL bodies and run like Deion Sanders?
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No. Saying that one way to measure a recruiting class is to look at their athleticism. As just one example:

Recruiting Ranking Top-25 RB >195/4.5
% Who Made NFL or All-Conference
2002-2006: 50% (32/63)

Recruiting Ranking Top-25 RB <195 or 4.6>
2002-2006: 18% (12/62)

You'll find many similar stats -- if you filter out isolated rankings, look at consensus rankings, then look at their reported athletic numbers per NFL scout desired estimates, you'll come up with a much higher rate of forecasted success. Small running backs, skinny wideouts, shorts QBs, undersized lineman, skilled but athletic tweeners, et al, can be spotted even in the recruiting stages using comparable data analysis for multiple positions.
 
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#286
#286
Ravenheart said:
Your expectations for Dooley at this point in the game are so unrealistic and unfair. No Besides, Dooley and the gang have done an incredible job finding and acquiring underrated talent.
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These are not my expectations for Dooley. My expectations are for a mid-tier SEC program in the 7-8 win median per season, schedule-dependent. I don't expect Dooley to out-recruit Saban or Richt or Muschamp or Miles or Chizik. I don't even expect him to out-recruit Dabo or Spurrier or Butch Davis. That isn't because I don't like him; it's because what should be expected of a good, but not elite, recruiter at Tennessee given the current recruiting/coaching competitive landscape.

As for the "finding and acquiring underrated talent," that's a yet-to-be proven. Very few coaches have any consistency doing that over time.
 
#287
#287
volwarrior33 said:
Bray and Milton had no choice, they practiced with Kiffin and Tennessee for the CFA Bowl and were bound to Tennessee regardless of the hire.

James, Smith, and Miller were all on campus on that infamous night and were all early enrollees.
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Bray's been good; Milton still a project. Smith committed back when Fulmer was coach.

Also, would that be the same James & Miller that Orgeron tried to persuade to not go to class so they could leave?
 
#290
#290
VegasVol said:
Bray's been good; Milton still a project. Smith committed back when Fulmer was coach.

Also, would that be the same James & Miller that Orgeron tried to persuade to not go to class so they could leave?
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Smith committed on NSD of 09, Fulmer was gone.

Yes, Orgeron tried to persuade them not to go to class, does not change the fact that Kiffin got them to campus.
 
#292
#292
the argument about dooley's ability to recruit is crap for this year. we had so many holes to fill (which he has done fairly well IMO) that a very highly ranked class just wasn't in the cards. outside of the rb position, we don't have some huge, gaping hole at any skill positions to go after the 5 star studs so many of you covet. next year and the following year will be appropriate years to judge dooley on whether he can land a top rated class (and who cares where the class is ranked if he can start winning?).
 
#293
#293
General Jack said:
Your Clemson numbers are wrong then.
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Have you looked at Clemson's recruiting this year?

Dooley Targets Committed to Dabo
Townsend
Bellamy
Peake
Watkins
Maclain
Goodson
Pagan

Dabo Targets Committed to Dooley
Johnson
Posey
 
#294
#294
volwarrior33 said:
Dooley has won 46% of his games, not 43. Fulmer's 75 may be solid, but his last 10 years speak for themselves. Kiffin has won 58% of his games, taking over one team coming off a 5-7 season and one team that the NCAA nuked.

I would not choose Fulmer, Kiffin, or Dooley to be my coach unless I was forced to take one of them. If I was I would take Kiffin, simply because he is the best recruiter right now of the three by far, putting the next coach in the best possible position.
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Preposterous. Kiffin can't be a good recruiter despite the top ten classes he got us. This class is way better. You must be obsessed with Kiffin to even suggest that he's near as good a recruiter as Dooley.
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#295
#295
VegasVol said:
These are not my expectations for Dooley. My expectations are for a mid-tier SEC program in the 7-8 win median per season, schedule-dependent. I don't expect Dooley to out-recruit Saban or Richt or Muschamp or Miles or Chizik. I don't even expect him to out-recruit Dabo or Spurrier or Butch Davis. That isn't because I don't like him; it's because what should be expected of a good, but not elite, recruiter at Tennessee given the current recruiting/coaching competitive landscape.

As for the "finding and acquiring underrated talent," that's a yet-to-be proven. Very few coaches have any consistency doing that over time.
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Sounds like an Ole Miss fan.
 
#297
#297
bleedorange0037 said:
The trouble with this plan is that you need those elite prospects in order to field the winning team. You're looking at it backwards. You win because you have a team full of elite players, not win first and then get the elite talent. That's why UT needs an ace recruiter as it's coach at this stage in the game. We're not ever going to get any better if this mediocre recruiting continues.
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I disagree. We're making the most of who we have. No one man is going make a difference; it is a team effort on the part of the coaches.

At this point, it is not mediocre recruiting; it is smart recruiting. Why take chances on prospects whose chances of staying in the program for the full four to five years are lower than others? I'm not saying that more talented players have a lower success rate in college than less talented players; I'm only saying that the objective RIGHT NOW is to fill the rosters. We need kids who will be here for the full three to five years, and if they happen to be three-star athletes, fine. A foundation for the future is necessary, and this is why, realistically, competing for championships with what we have now seems to be a bit much to ask for. Four years from now, you could make that argument that this is mediocre recruiting, but not now.
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#298
#298
VKAman said:
Still trying to give Fulmer credit using imaginary "facts," are we?
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You don't really follow recruiting, do you? Smith committed to Tennessee back in 2008.

From a 2008 article:

Benny Monroe, the head coach of Ooltewah (Tenn.) High School says his junior defensive end, Jacques Smith, is "quite a force." The Scout.com five-star has some early favorites.

"He's the total package: athletic ability, grades, size, and an amazing work ethic," says Benny Monroe.

The high praise, awards, and offers keep rolling in for Jacques Smith after an outstanding junior season. Smith was recently named the Class 5A Mr. Football Lineman at the TSSAA's Tennessee Titans Mr. Football Awards.

Monroe says he expects Smith as the No. 1 player in the state of Tennessee in 2010. Naturally such recognition has a lot of big name schools interested in his services.

"He committed to the University of Tennessee, but when Fulmer left, he decided to look at some other schools."
 
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