Question for those in the know

#76
#76
WaywardVol said:
Hamilton was a big part of the problem. He was a feckless, pencil sharperner, who lacked the command that Dickey had. Trust me, Dickey has his faults, but he could go to Fulmer and say, focus on football, quit privately investigating Bama and hire an OC you can entrust the offense to 100%. Hamilton mishandled the firing and certianly mishandled the next hiring. Still, we’ve seen programs survive much worse and not have the extended cycle of suck we experienced. There was a lot of behind the scenes failures that shipwrecked the program.

Fulmer couldn’t see the forest for the trees. The fact that he never seriously pursued coaching again is all the evidence one needs to see where his heart was. He didn’t try to restore his legacy and show he still had it. He just quietly retired. Well, until he returned to finish the demolition he had started.
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This all makes sense to me. Sounds right.
 
#77
#77
LAVol1 said:
Re: Fulmer. Pretty harsh and some baseless conjecture. There was nothing to restore--he won more games than any Tennessee head coach in our lifetime and was 11-5-1 vs. Bama (the primary reason they hate him so much). He was without question the greatest recruiter in our history. He didn't achieve what he did by being incompetent. Stop the groundless bashing and give the man his due. He is the very epitome of VFL.
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Yes but what got him in the end was not being able to hire offensive coordinator. Without David Cutcliffe we were mediocre considering the talent we had. No ill feelings towards Coach Fulmer but it was time. Do you honestly think Doug Dickey would have put up with it? No he wouldn't have
 
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#79
#79
SWC - GBO said:
There was a rumor at the time, when everybody knew Dooley was going to be fired, that Cutcliffe was interested if he could bring his whole staff from Duke. Which UT rejected.
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Cut was actually announced on some news outlets as the new head coach. It was that close to being a thing. If we had hired Cutcliffe instead of Dooley--Butch--Pruitt, we would have never been worse than an 8-win team. Would have had a fun offense to watch. Recruiting would have been mediocre... so high floor, low ceiling. I also think Cutcliffe would've given us plenty notice of his retirement, which would've given us time to find the right successor (not saying UT Admin wouldn't have screwed that up).

I've mentioned before in other threads. Not hiring Cutcliffe in 2010 was the turning point for the whole program.
 
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#80
#80
SpookyAction said:
There was talk of Fulmer getting interest from other programs and the Jaguars. I think all of that was agents' whispers for raises from the AD. With all his faults, Fulmer was a UT guy and wasn't going to coach elsewhere.

I do think the last 2 decades would have been better if Fulmer had been coach during the Kiffin and Dooley years.

Gary Patterson of TCU is the wild card possibility we missed. I think he could have been successful here.
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He had a house in Maryville, designs or had started one in the mountains, daughters attending UT, and a wife happy with their life here….., don.‘t have a clue what he was making with that financial firm he was with, but with his buyout life was pretty solid. Doubt he could stand the thought of wearing any other color like every bonafide VFL.

Hate his second bad fit hire cost him again, but the fact he hung around insulated his bosses from further NCAA scrutiny and he played his bulletproof integrity cards to the max. That stint as prez of the coaches group came in handy,

The most documented pay for play scheme ever cost us, but it could have been way worse since the rot was accepted as from Pruitt and down and they were quickly surgically carved out. Not sure what the whistleblower had in the arsenal.
 
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#82
#82
a vol n tears said:
During that time SEC was just in the beginning stages of going all in on football. Tenn still had a good rep as a good program. They messed up not keeping the staff and naming one of them as interim HC. As I remember, some wanted to go that route.
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Yes😃should have hired Kippy Brown as the interim head coach. As I recall he wanted the job.
 
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#83
#83
ALLVOL 4LIFE said:
Couldn’t? Wouldn’t?Seemed like complacency from the outside looking in.

Just like in the movie “The Blind Side” when Fulmer showed up, everyone was basically in fear from his recruiting. I know that could have been dramatic for the movie, but I’d say there was a lot of truth to that as well. And drive to out recruit everyone doesn’t just stop unless you allow it to. I’m a big guy, so not poking fun at him, but Fulmer got Fat and Lazy and it showed up all over the program after the National Championship.

Maybe that one was enough for him, maybe he felt he’s reached his Pinnacle. Who knows? At least that’s my take on the situation and the only evidence to back it is what we all saw with our own eyes.
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Eh, potaYto, potaHto. I can't pretend to know Fulmer's mental state at that time and whether or not he simply turned lazy in recruiting.

I do seem to remember reading something about a change our administration had made in admission standards, that made recruiting certain players who were academically...let's just say "on the bubble" impossible because they no longer qualified. It had said that Fulmer and staff were very frustrated over that because in years past, those players wouldve gotten in. Apparently this had a big impact on Fulmer's recruiting as well.
 
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#84
#84
vols40 said:
Yes but what got him in the end was not being able to hire offensive coordinator. Without David Cutcliffe we were mediocre considering the talent we had. No ill feelings towards Coach Fulmer but it was time. Do you honestly think Doug Dickey would have put up with it? No he wouldn't have
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Ah, but he did hire a top-notch OC and wasn't given the time to see if he worked out. The guy was so highly regarded he was supposed to be groomed as Fulmer's successor. I still maintain it was the perfect storm of coaching changes in the SEC (Saban, Meyer, Spurrier to USC, Richt and Tuberville) that depleted the number of 4 and 5* players recruited by UT (a couple from SC, two or three from GA and AL each year) that contributed more than anything else to the decline under Fulmer.
 
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#85
#85
LAVol1 said:
Re: Fulmer. Pretty harsh and some baseless conjecture. There was nothing to restore--he won more games than any Tennessee head coach in our lifetime and was 11-5-1 vs. Bama (the primary reason they hate him so much). He was without question the greatest recruiter in our history. He didn't achieve what he did by being incompetent. Stop the groundless bashing and give the man his due. He is the very epitome of VFL.
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Baseless? The meetings at Shoney’s are fact. His decline with two losing seasons? Fact. His bungled hire of an OC? Fact. Hell, How Fulmer got the job in the first place? Fact. What Fulmer did with hiring Pruitt? Complete incompetence and fact. You are absolutely welcome to feel however you want to about the man, but I’ll be gawd damned if you or anyone else going to tell me how to think, or what to say.
 
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#86
#86
LAVol1 said:
Re: Fulmer. Pretty harsh and some baseless conjecture. There was nothing to restore--he won more games than any Tennessee head coach in our lifetime and was 11-5-1 vs. Bama (the primary reason they hate him so much). He was without question the greatest recruiter in our history. He didn't achieve what he did by being incompetent. Stop the groundless bashing and give the man his due. He is the very epitome of VFL.
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I will give him all the credit for that but at the same time the program was obviously on the decline. He was not in the same league as Saban, Spurrier, Les Miles, or Urban Myers and it was obvious he was not ever going to be. You can draw a line between what Fulmer was with David Cutcliff and without him. Our success waned after Cutcliff left. Even the NC in the Fiesta Bowl was a very sloppy game against an inferior opponent. But we still had the talent to dominate. And Cutcliff even stated he could not believe the lack of discipline in the program when he returned.

Is he a VFL? Without a doubt.

Was he competent as a head coach without Cutcliff? Did he stab Johnny in the back? Did he work behind the scenes to get the AD job and leak the Schiano story to the media? Did he hire an incompetent football coach who almost totally destroyed the program? If he cared so much about the program, why did he take a buyout for millions of dollars when he was escorted out the door as the AD? Why did Plowman and the administration push him out of the back door when the NCAA was entering the front door?

I would like for him to do an interview and answer those questions. But I suspect any local reporter that conducts that interview may be barred or ignored by UTAD in the future.
 
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#88
#88
LAVol1 said:
Ah, but he did hire a top-notch OC and wasn't given the time to see if he worked out. The guy was so highly regarded he was supposed to be groomed as Fulmer's successor. I still maintain it was the perfect storm of coaching changes in the SEC (Saban, Meyer, Spurrier to USC, Richt and Tuberville) that depleted the number of 4 and 5* players recruited by UT (a couple from SC, two or three from GA and AL each year) that contributed more than anything else to the decline under Fulmer.
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He had 4 opportunities to hire offensive coordinators while at Tennessee. Twice it was David Cutcliffe the other two were Randy Sanders and Dave Clawson. Dave Clawson lost on homecoming to Wyoming, who did not have Josh Allen as QB. Like it or not coach Fulmer rested on his prior success and couldn't hire an offensive coordinator. And that's no knock on Coach but 2 losing seasons in 4 years smacks of resting on prior success. The Wyoming game is the game that got Coach Fulmer fired but it all started with the 2nd half collapse in the 01 SECCG after going to Florida and winning the prior week. Unexcusable
 
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#89
#89
Orange Navy said:
Cut was actually announced on some news outlets as the new head coach. It was that close to being a thing. If we had hired Cutcliffe instead of Dooley--Butch--Pruitt, we would have never been worse than an 8-win team. Would have had a fun offense to watch. Recruiting would have been mediocre... so high floor, low ceiling. I also think Cutcliffe would've given us plenty notice of his retirement, which would've given us time to find the right successor (not saying UT Admin wouldn't have screwed that up).

I've mentioned before in other threads. Not hiring Cutcliffe in 2010 was the turning point for the whole program.
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Cut would have been fantastic. However, it didn't happen. Maybe he was just too honest and rational for the Administration at that time.
 
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#90
#90
WaywardVol said:
Baseless? The meetings at Shoney’s are fact. His decline with two losing seasons? Fact. His bungled hire of an OC? Fact. Hell, How Fulmer got the job in the first place? Fact. What Fulmer did with hiring Pruitt? Complete incompetence and fact. You are absolutely welcome to feel however you want to about the man, but I’ll be gawd damned if you or anyone else going to tell me how to think, or what to say.
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What were the meetings at Shoney's? I dont recall hearing that story.
 
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#91
#91
vols40 said:
He had 4 opportunities to hire offensive coordinators while at Tennessee. Twice it was David Cutcliffe the other two were Randy Sanders and Dave Clawson. Dave Clawson lost on homecoming to Wyoming, who did not have Josh Allen as QB. Like it or not coach Fulmer rested on his prior success and couldn't hire an offensive coordinator. And that's no knock on Coach but 2 losing seasons in 4 years smacks of resting on prior success. The Wyoming game is the game that got Coach Fulmer fired but it all started with the 2nd half collapse in the 01 SECCG after going to Florida and winning the prior week. Unexcusable
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Oh, can we please stop with that damn Wyoming game? You and everyone else know damn well the team quit in protest in that game. It had nothing to do with Fulmer's coaching prowess or Clawson's. Our team simply refused to play because they were pissed about Fulmer being fired.
 
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#94
#94
vols40 said:
He had 4 opportunities to hire offensive coordinators while at Tennessee. Twice it was David Cutcliffe the other two were Randy Sanders and Dave Clawson. Dave Clawson lost on homecoming to Wyoming, who did not have Josh Allen as QB. Like it or not coach Fulmer rested on his prior success and couldn't hire an offensive coordinator. And that's no knock on Coach but 2 losing seasons in 4 years smacks of resting on prior success. The Wyoming game is the game that got Coach Fulmer fired but it all started with the 2nd half collapse in the 01 SECCG after going to Florida and winning the prior week. Unexcusable
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Clawson was successful before Fulmer hired him and quite successful after. He was a good hire, just wasn't given the time to fully implement his offense.
 
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#97
#97
i have always thought that it wasnt as much "Fulmer lost it" as it was the rest of the SEC caught up and Fulmer didnt adapt to the changing SEC. Him and Spurrier ran the mid to late 90's, but it was easier in 1998 when it was jim donnan, mike dubose, gerry dinardo, and brad scott on the other sideline. But in 2008 when those jobs were held by Mark Richt, Nick Saban, Les Miles, and Steve Spurrier, not to mention Urban Meyer at Florida, the game changed. I give credit to fulmer for what he did in the glory days, you have to, but I have always said that 8-10 years is about the lifespan of a coach at one school. After that, the fans start getting tired of the coach, and the coach starts getting tired and the little things star becoming the things that people gripe about. I tried to tell my kentucky friend the very same thing about stoops. he kept saying that stoops could win 8 games every year and ky fans would never complain, i told him that the biggest mistake stoops made was turning down texas a&m, because his clock was ticking and it wouldnt be long before he was out at ky. It was fulmers time to go, it was probably well past time for him to go, i think he just couldnt see it. for all i dont like about spurrier, i respect the fact that in 2001 he saw the writing on the wall and got out before things got worse. he saw the monster he built came with expectations that were unreal and he struck me as a guy who, if the fanbase wanted to get combative over a two loss season, he would flip nickles with them and could probably be quite the jerk we knew him as
 
#98
#98
tnvolfan16 said:
i have always thought that it wasnt as much "Fulmer lost it" as it was the rest of the SEC caught up and Fulmer didnt adapt to the changing SEC. Him and Spurrier ran the mid to late 90's, but it was easier in 1998 when it was jim donnan, mike dubose, gerry dinardo, and brad scott on the other sideline. But in 2008 when those jobs were held by Mark Richt, Nick Saban, Les Miles, and Steve Spurrier, not to mention Urban Meyer at Florida, the game changed. I give credit to fulmer for what he did in the glory days, you have to, but I have always said that 8-10 years is about the lifespan of a coach at one school. After that, the fans start getting tired of the coach, and the coach starts getting tired and the little things star becoming the things that people gripe about. I tried to tell my kentucky friend the very same thing about stoops. he kept saying that stoops could win 8 games every year and ky fans would never complain, i told him that the biggest mistake stoops made was turning down texas a&m, because his clock was ticking and it wouldnt be long before he was out at ky. It was fulmers time to go, it was probably well past time for him to go, i think he just couldnt see it. for all i dont like about spurrier, i respect the fact that in 2001 he saw the writing on the wall and got out before things got worse. he saw the monster he built came with expectations that were unreal and he struck me as a guy who, if the fanbase wanted to get combative over a two loss season, he would flip nickles with them and could probably be quite the jerk we knew him as
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It wasn't so much that the coaching at the other schools was so much better, but they the entire group of coaches got 4-5 guys we would have otherwise signed each year, which made our roster much weaker. It was more the "Jimmy and Joe's" than the "X's and O's". Fulmer's coaching approach at the end of his career was much like Saban's, but Saban had the hosses, Fulmer didn't. Saban adapted AFTER Fulmer was fired. Fulmer may or may not have. I'm not saying Fulmer was nearly as good as Saban, but he certainly wasn't the inept coach too many here think he was.
 
#99
#99
We’re seriously blaming Kiffin for 10 bad years?

We just witnessed a coach win a National Championship with the Indiana Hoosiers- in year 2. Furthermore he did it with a roster with only 7 FOUR STARS. And we’re seriously blame one guy? And I guess Ole Miss will be crap now huh?

No. Our administration just didn’t want to to really win. Honestly the Heupel hire was the same, and just now after year 5 does it seem like they’re pulling out all the stops. The Heupel hire so far has been a huge success.
 
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