question about Christianity

#476
#476
Jesus is a bud light drinker,he also doesn't have car insurance ! and drives like an 80 year old Korean woman.
 
#477
#477
PKT_VOL said:
I concede to Descartes's cogito in Meditations II. "I think, therefore I am."
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The only thing I disagree with is the way he phrased "cogito ergo sum"; it would have been more accurate to say "I have thoughts, therefore I am". "Thinking" is too much of an active, success verb that connotes control over thoughts. Of course, it is both more convincing and more powerful if you replace "cogito" with "dubito": "I doubt, therefore I am".
 
#478
#478
mscox75 said:
God is sovreign. Yes. Creatures may have existed before but he created them. Atheism is the most ignorant thing someone can argue or state themselves as. Believing in Jesus, I can understand ones arguement or confusion. But. On that subject. I can go on and on. On a final note: if your right and I am wrong. I haven't loss much. If I am right and your wrong. Well. I hate your consequences.
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theism, n.1
Pronunciation: /ˈθiːɪz(ə)m/
Etymology: modern < Greek &#952;&#949;&#972;&#962; god + -ism suffix. Compare French théisme (Voltaire).


a. gen. Belief in a deity, or deities, as opposed to atheism.


b. Belief in one god, as opposed to polytheism or pantheism; = monotheism n.


c. Belief in the existence of God, with denial of revelation: = deism n.

d. esp. Belief in one God as creator and supreme ruler of the universe, without denial of revelation: in this use distinguished from deism.

1678 R. Cudworth True Intellect. Syst. Universe Pref. sig. ***2, Nor indeed out of a meer Partiall Regard to that Cause of Theism neither, which we were engaged in.
1711 Ld. Shaftesbury Characteristicks (1737) II. 209, I consider&#8229;that to be a settled Christian, it is necessary to be first of all a good theist. For theism can only be oppos'd to polytheism, or atheism.
a1774 A. Tucker Light of Nature (1834) II. 323 We find the introduction of theism, that is, the doctrine of an intelligent Agent, the Author of nature,&#8229;claimed for Pythagoras.
1841 M. Elphinstone Hist. India I. ii. iv. 163 The theism inculcated by the Védas&#8229;has been supplanted by a system of gross polytheism and idolatry.
1877 R. Flint Theism i. 18 Theism is the doctrine that the universe owes its existence, and continuance&#8229;to the reason and will of a self-existent Being.&#8229; It is the doctrine that nature has a Creator and Preserver.
1888 F. L. Patton Syllabus Lect. Theism 1 (Funk) Theism may be considered religiously [as embracing] polytheism, pantheism, monotheism (theism par excellence).
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deity, n.
Pronunciation: /&#712;di&#720;&#618;t&#618;/ /&#712;de&#618;&#618;t&#618;/
Forms: Also ME–15 deite, deyte, ME deitee, 15–16 deitie, (ME deyite, deyte, dietie, ME–16 diety, 16 dyety).
Etymology: < French déité , in 12th cent. deitet , deite (= Provençal deitat , Spanish deidad , Italian deità ), < Latin deit&#257;s , deit&#257;t-em , < de-us god (formed by Augustine, De Civit. Dei vii. i., after Latin d&#299;v&#299;nit&#257;s ): see -ity suffix.
1.

a. The estate or rank of a god; godhood; the personality of a god; godship; esp. with poss. pron.

c1374 Chaucer Troilus & Criseyde iii. 968 But o þow Ioue&#8229;Is þis an honour to þi deite.
c1405 (1395) Chaucer Franklin's Tale (Hengwrt) (2003) l. 339 Thogh Neptunus haue deitee in the See.
c1440 J. Capgrave Life St. Katherine iv. 764 Whi shulde appollo bere ony deyte?
1594 Marlowe & T. Nashe Dido iii. ii, That ugly imp that shall&#8229;wrong my deity with high disgrace.
1597 Shakespeare Richard III i. i. 76 Lord Hastings&#8229;Humbly complaining to her deity, Got my Lord Chamberlaine his liberty.
?1606 M. Drayton Man in Moone in Poemes sig. Hv, Yet no disguise her deity could smother, So far in beauty she excelled other.
1614 W. Raleigh Hist. World 178 By what reason could the same deity be denied unto Laurentia and Flora, which was given to Venus?
a1616 Shakespeare Winter's Tale (1623) iv. iv. 26 The Goddes themselues (Humbling their Deities to loue).
1844 E. B. Browning Dead Pan xxviii, All the false gods with a cry Rendered up their deity.

b. The divine quality, character, or nature of God; Godhood, divinity; the divine nature and attributes, the Godhead.

1362 Langland Piers Plowman A. xi. 43 Þus þei drauelen on heore deys þe Deite to knowe.
c1394 P. Pl. Crede 825 Freres wyln for her pride Disputen of þis deyte as dotardes schulden.
1398 J. Trevisa tr. Bartholomew de Glanville De Proprietatibus Rerum (1495) i. 3 The lyghte of the heuenly dyuyne clarete, couerte, & closid in the deyte or in the godhede.
1502 tr. Ordynarye of Crysten Men (de Worde) Prol. sig. a.iv, The fader ye sone & the holy goost one essence of deite.
?1518 A. Barclay Fyfte Eglog sig. Bi, To honour our lorde, and pease his deyte.
1594 T. Bowes tr. P. de la Primaudaye French Acad. II. To Rdr. sig. b2, The creator&#8229;hath set such markes of his diety in his workes.
1595 Blanchardine & Eglantine liv. 213 Whose eternall dietie raigneth within the highest heauens.
1633 Bp. J. Hall Plaine Explic. Hard Texts ii. 57 In my&#8229;infinite deitie, I will be ever present with you.
1667 Milton Paradise Lost x. 65 The Father&#8229;on the Son Blaz'd forth unclouded Deitie.
1736 S. Chandler Hist. Persecution 47 The same man opposed the Deity of the Son of God.
1835 Gentleman's Mag. Oct. 397/1 Mr. Gurney's work&#8229;is chiefly confined to the Deity of Christ. There is something open and decided in saying Deity, rather than Divinity.

†c. The condition or state in which the Divine Being exists. Obs.

c1400 Rom. Rose 5656 And leven alle humanite, And purely lyve in deite.
c1485 Digby Myst. (1882) iii. 1075, I ded natt asend to my father In deyyte.
2.

a. concr. A divinity, a divine being, a god; one of the gods worshipped by a people or tribe.

c1374 Chaucer Troilus & Criseyde iv. 1515, I swere it yow, and ek on ech goddesse, On every nymphe, and deyte infernal.
1589 R. Greene Menaphon sig. D4v, That I helde a supersticious opinion of loue, in honouring him for a Deitie.
a1616 Shakespeare Coriolanus (1623) iv. vi. 95 A thing Made by some other Deity then Nature, That shapes man Better.
1648 Bp. J. Wilkins Math. Magick i. xi. 69 Temples or Tombes&#8229;dedicated to some of their Deities.
1794 R. J. Sulivan View of Nature II. 448 The chief deity, the sun.
1814 H. F. Cary tr. Dante Paradiso viii. 3 The fair Cyprian deity [Venus].
1851 D. Wilson Archaeol. & Prehist. Ann. Scotl. (1863) II. iii. ii. 71 The Altar appears to be dedicated to one of these obscure local deities.

b. fig. An object of worship; a thing or person deified.

1598 Shakespeare Love's Labour's Lost iv. iii. 71 This is the lyuer veine, which makes flesh a deitie.
1630 J. Taylor Wks. ii. 113/1 Tobacco (England's bainefull Diety).
3. (with capital) A supreme being as creator of the universe; the Deity, the Supreme Being, God. (Especially as a term of Natural Theology, and without explicit predication of personality.)

1647 N. Bacon Hist. Disc. Govt. 15 They worship an invisible and an infinite Diety.
1694 J. Locke Ess. Humane Understanding (new ed.) i. iv. 30 A rational Creature, who will but seriously reflect on them, cannot miss the discovery of a Deity.
1774 O. Goldsmith Hist. Earth I. 6 We see the greatness and wisdom of the Deity in all the seeming worlds that surround us.
1786 H. More Let. in Mem. Ld. Gambier (1861) I. x. 157 Polite ears are disgusted to hear their Maker called ‘the Lord’ in common talk, while serious ones think the fashionable appellation of ‘the Deity’ sounds extremely Pagan.
1815 J. Smith Panorama Sci. & Art I. 527 Newton&#8229;had recourse, for one of the forces, to the immediate action of the Deity.
1860 E. B. Pusey Minor Prophets 193 Men spoke of ‘the Deity’, as a sort of first cause of all things, and&#8229;had lost sight of the Personal God.
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ignorance, n.
Pronunciation: /&#712;&#618;gn&#601;r&#601;ns/
Forms: Also ME–15 ignoraunce, ygnoraunce, (ME ignorence, 15 yngnorance).
Etymology: < French ignorance (12th cent. in Littré) = Italian ignoranzia , Spanish ignorancia , < Latin ign&#333;r&#257;ntia , < ign&#333;r&#257;nt-em ignorant adj. and n.
1.

a. The fact or condition of being ignorant; want of knowledge (general or special).

?c1225 (1200) Ancrene Riwle (Cleo. C.vi) (1972) 203 Sunne & ignorance. þet [is] vnwisdom & unweotenesse.
a1340 R. Rolle Psalter cxlv. 6 Þe blynd in ignoraunce he makis seand in wisdome.
c1380 Eng. Wycliffite Serm. in Sel. Wks. II. 32 He&#8229;þat synneþ of ignoraunce.
1490 Caxton tr. Eneydos xxviii. 110 Proserpyne&#8229;maketh theyr memorye to wexe feble and conuerteth it in to ygnoraunce.
1573 J. Sanford tr. L. Guicciardini Hours Recreat. (1576) 104 Marvell is the daughter of ignoraunce.
a1616 Shakespeare Twelfth Night (1623) iv. ii. 46 This house is as darke as Ignorance, thogh Ignorance were as darke as hell.
1641 Naunton's Fragmenta Regalia sig. A3, It was the maxime that over-ruled the foregoing times, that ignorance was the mother of devotion.
1747 T. Gray Ode Eton Coll. 8 Where Ignorance is Bliss, 'Tis Folly to be wise.
1774 J. Beattie Minstrel: 2nd Bk. xxx. 16 Be ignorance thy choice, where knowlege leads to wo.
1862 B. Brodie Psychol. Inq. II. v. 147 Much of the evil which exists in the world may be traced to mere ignorance.

b. Constr. of (†in, or subord. clause).

1390 J. Gower Confessio Amantis III. 79 Thou&#8229;of thy self hast ignoraunce.
1566 Acts & Constit. Scotl. To Rdr. *iij, Thair is&#8229;na excusatioun to the man pretendand Ignorance of the Law.
1613 S. Purchas Pilgrimage 595 Oversights of Writers, through negligence or ignorance in forren names.
1847 L. Hunt Men, Women, & Bks. I. i. 1 The supposition is founded on an ignorance of the nature of the human mind.
1872 J. Ruskin Eagle's Nest §16 National ignorance of decent art is always criminal.

c. With an and pl.: An instance or example of ignorance. rare.

1749 C. Wesley in Bp. Lavington Enthus. Methodists (1754) I. ii. 76 That very weak Sermon&#8229;which is an Ignoratio Elenchi (an Ignorance of the Point in Question).
1758 W. Blackstone Study of Law in Comm. Laws Eng. I. (1809) 7 An ignorance in these must always be of dangerous consequence.
1816 J. Scott Paris Revisited (ed. 3) iv. 62 Difficulties which the ignorances [(eds. 1 & 2) ignorance] and violence of the people have frequently thrown in the way of their princes.
1881 Modern Rev. Jan. 136 All falsities and ignorances are eliminated.

†2. With an and pl. An act due to want of knowledge; an offence or sin caused by ignorance.

c1425 Prymer (E.E.T.S.) 62 [Ps. xxv. 7] Lord, remembre þou not þe trespassis of my &#541;ougþe, and myn ignorauncis.
1549 Bk. Common Prayer Litany, That it may please thee&#8229;to forgeue us all our synnes, negligences, and ignoraunces.
1598 B. Yong tr. J. de Montemayor Diana 6 He neuer committed any ignorance, that might turne to the hurt or hinderance of his faith.
1611 Bible (A.V.) 1 Esdras viii. 75 Our sinnes are multiplied aboue our heads, and our ignorances haue reached vp vnto heauen.
[1850 R. C. Trench Notes Parables (ed. 2) xxii. 304 Sin is oftentimes an ignorance.]
3. (In full the time or days of ignorance ; tr. Arabic j&#257;hil&#299;yah state of ignorance, < j&#257;hil ignorant.) The period of Arabian history previous to the teaching of Muhammad.

1788 Gibbon Decline & Fall V. l. 185 Of the time of ignorance which preceded Mahomet, seventeen hundred battles are recorded by tradition.
1895 A. Menzies Hist. Relig. 213 The Arabs called the period before Islam the ‘time of ignorance’; in that period they considered their race had no history.
1904 W. P. Ker Dark Ages 14 The student of heroic poetry may admire the temper of the Arabian Dark Ages—‘the Ignorance’.
1937 P. K. Hitti Hist. Arabs vii. 87 The term j&#257;hil&#299;yah, usually rendered ‘time of ignorance’ or ‘barbarism’, in reality means the period in which Arabia had no dispensation, no inspired prophet, no revealed book.
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:hi:
 
#480
#480
VOLatile said:
Jesus could not forgive because Jesus wasn't involved in the event that needed forgiving for.
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Depends on what is being forgiven. Sins against another person or sins against God.
If you sin against a friend you pay for it with the loss of the friends or other consideration.
Sins against God must be paid as well. Either by you or by someone else. So the question is who can pay for your wrongs against a Holy Righteous God?
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#481
#481
orangeslice13 said:
Depends on what is being forgiven. Sins against another person or sins against God.
If you sin against a friend you pay for it with the loss of the friends or other consideration.
Sins against God must be paid as well. Either by you or by someone else. So the question is who can pay for your wrongs against a Holy Righteous God?
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"Nam esse vitium et non nocere non potest" - Augustine
(transliterated as: where there is no harm there can be no wrong).

How does one harm an omnipotent being? If this cannot be done, then one cannot commit any "wrongs against a Holy Righteous God" if omnipotence is a characteristic of said God (which, for Christianity it is).

Then, there are only wrongs against other creatures; therefore, only the creature that has been wronged can forgive such a transgression.
 
#482
#482
therealUT said:
"Nam esse vitium et non nocere non potest" - Augustine
(transliterated as: where there is no harm there can be no wrong).

How does one harm an omnipotent being? If this cannot be done, then one cannot commit any "wrongs against a Holy Righteous God" if omnipotence is a characteristic of said God (which, for Christianity it is).

Then, there are only wrongs against other creatures; therefore, only the creature that has been wronged can forgive such a transgression.
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Its a matter of perspective. Do you believe there is a Creator? (You are free not to and I will hold no ill will against you) if you believe in the Creator you likely believe the rules were written down. (See disclaimer) the rules I believe address this are "the wages of sin are death " and "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." So when you do something wrong do you offend God along with a person or thing? Its a matter of your belief system.
From the no Creator point of view your opinion has merit. (See disclaimer one more time)
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#484
#484
RespectTradition said:
If you mug two guys walking down the street, can one of them forgive you for mugging him, or would it take both of them?

If you rob me, you have harmed me and sinned against God. God can forgive you for sinning against him, even if I don't. That is the situation with Jesus.

Why is that a difficult concept?
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Still doesn't address the main point. Take John 8: 3-11 about the woman taken in adultry.

While the masses are there ready to stone her, Jesus steps in and says "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone". He then proceeds to "forgive her" for transgressions. First, if only those who have never done wrong are allowed to judge, how could an imperfect society ever expect to judge anybody? And what about the other parties involved, surely some husband or wife womewhere else in the city felt cheated, no? Furthermore, according to Mosaic law, the man involved should have been subject to the same punishment, yet there is no mention of him. Additionally, Jesus told her to "go and sin no more"? Did she? Nobody knows. Also, after the crowd had gone away, supposedly it was just her and Jesus, and in that case, who is narrating the story? Again, nobody knows.

The whole story factually confusing, and morally ambigous by any standard, and yet it is par for the course most "moral lessons" celebrated by the Bible. This is the standard of a omnipotent being? You guys can have it, I trust myself far more to decide what is morally right.
 
#486
#486
therealUT said:
The only thing I disagree with is the way he phrased "cogito ergo sum"; it would have been more accurate to say "I have thoughts, therefore I am". "Thinking" is too much of an active, success verb that connotes control over thoughts. Of course, it is both more convincing and more powerful if you replace "cogito" with "dubito": "I doubt, therefore I am".
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Haha. You are absolutely correct. I actually debated whether you would catch translation difference. I figured I'd post the more well-known, less philosophical translation.
 
#488
#488
ImTheCrew said:
Like I said I'm way over my head... But until you find the gap of how the earth has become... Then we do not have unlimited information.
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We have known about the creation of the Earth for many years now. The final frontiers now in physics (and conversely the shrinking edges of metaphysics) include but are not limited to the creation and eventual destruction of the universe, the reconciliation of quantum mechanics and special relativity, parallel universes, and multiple dimensions.
 
#489
#489
orangeslice13 said:
Its a matter of perspective. Do you believe there is a Creator? (You are free not to and I will hold no ill will against you) if you believe in the Creator you likely believe the rules were written down. (See disclaimer) the rules I believe address this are "the wages of sin are death " and "all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God." So when you do something wrong do you offend God along with a person or thing? Its a matter of your belief system.
From the no Creator point of view your opinion has merit. (See disclaimer one more time)
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You are doing nothing for your argument; you are simply demonstrating the contradictions that are rife in Christianity regarding sin and the properties of God.
 
#490
#490
KiffinKiller said:
so a benevolent being still has expectations? why give us free will then?
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Word play. Define benevolent. On second thought don't.
I don't begin to understand the mind of a God who can speak everything into existing billions of years ago. I'll leave why to people who are much smarter than I am.
in my simple mind I know someone made the car I drive because I can see it and it works. In the same fashion I can see the universe, it is highly tuned and it works.
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#492
#492
therealUT said:
You are doing nothing for your argument; you are simply demonstrating the contradictions that are rife in Christianity regarding sin and the properties of God.
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Argument? I'm not trying to sway anyone to my way of thinking. To be honest I haven't stated what I think. I was just adding some perspective to the conversation. Contradiction sounds fun though. Which contradiction would you like to discuss?
Going into a sales call might take me a while to get back.
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#494
#494
orangeslice13 said:
Word play. Define benevolent. On second thought don't.
I don't begin to understand the mind of a God who can speak everything into existing billions of years ago. I'll leave why to people who are much smarter than I am.
in my simple mind I know someone made the car I drive because I can see it and it works. In the same fashion I can see the universe, it is highly tuned and it works.
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Ah yes, the teleological argument for the existence of God.
 
#495
#495
orangeslice13 said:
Argument? I'm not trying to sway anyone to my way of thinking. To be honest I haven't stated what I think. I was just adding some perspective to the conversation. Contradiction sounds fun though. Which contradiction would you like to discuss?
Going into a sales call might take me a while to get back.
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I do not use argument in the ordinary use sense.

Christian Canon, Doctrine, and Dogma make it quite clear that to believe in the Christian God, one believes this Being is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Therefore, to believe in this Creator is to believe it can neither be harmed nor offended. Yet, Christian CD&D states that sins are offenses against God. This is a contradiction.
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#498
#498
therealUT said:
I do not use argument in the ordinary use sense.

Christian Canon, Doctrine, and Dogma make it quite clear that to believe in the Christian God, one believes this Being is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. Therefore, to believe in this Creator is to believe it can neither be harmed nor offended. Yet, Christian CD&D states that sins are offenses against God. This is a contradiction.
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Back quicker than expected.
I don't like the term Christian. To many things have been lumped into this category. How can anyone say Catholics, Baptist, and Mormons all follow the same God? Yet all define themselves as Christian. Now here is a new movement called evangelicals. The whole thing makes my head hurt. But I digress. I not sure I see a contradiction. I openly admit there are many things I don't understand. For example my dogs don't understand why I do what I do. I think the gap in intelligence from me to God is far greater than my dog to me. It comes back to God defines himself and what is expected.
If that makes me a simple hick with two degrees from the university of Tennessee then so be it.

Yes I went to school for 8 years of education and didn't get a doctorate. I told you I was stupid.
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#499
#499
orangeslice13 said:
Back quicker than expected.
I don't like the term Christian. To many things have been lumped into this category. How can anyone say Catholics, Baptist, and Mormons all follow the same God? Yet all define themselves as Christian. Now here is a new movement called evangelicals. The whole thing makes my head hurt. But I digress. I not sure I see a contradiction. I openly admit there are many things I don't understand. For example my dogs don't understand why I do what I do. I think the gap in intelligence from me to God is far greater than my dog to me. It comes back to God defines himself and what is expected.
If that makes me a simple hick with two degrees from the university of Tennessee then so be it.

Yes I went to school for 8 years of education and didn't get a doctorate. I told you I was stupid.
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To say that Catholics, Protestants, and Anglicans all profess to follow a God that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent is hardly impossible.

Maybe, you, personally, do not subscribe to any of these Dogmas, Doctrines, or Canons; it is not impossible that you could still consider yourself a Christian (see Kant). However, you would certainly be a limited minority and would have to distance yourself from the following: Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Calvinists, and Anglicans. I am not certain of what it is that the Unitarian Church or the Church of Christ profess; I am not even certain that each of these refers to themselves as Christians (I could be wrong, but I also do not think that the LCS considers itself to be Christian; I do know that they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, though).

The gaps from finite to infinite and temporal to atemporal are impossible to bridge; this is why I think it is dubious to assign any property to whatever it is that caused creation.
 
#500
#500
therealUT said:
To say that Catholics, Protestants, and Anglicans all profess to follow a God that is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent is hardly impossible.

Maybe, you, personally, do not subscribe to any of these Dogmas, Doctrines, or Canons; it is not impossible that you could still consider yourself a Christian (see Kant). However, you would certainly be a limited minority and would have to distance yourself from the following: Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Calvinists, and Anglicans. I am not certain of what it is that the Unitarian Church or the Church of Christ profess; I am not even certain that each of these refers to themselves as Christians (I could be wrong, but I also do not think that the LCS considers itself to be Christian; I do know that they do not believe in a Trinitarian God, though).

The gaps from finite to infinite and temporal to atemporal are impossible to bridge; this is why I think it is dubious to assign any property to whatever it is that caused creation.
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It would not be the first time I was included in a limited minority. I was once asked not to return to a small Baptist church because of Dogma type issues. I always find it odd that people don't read the book. LDS or Mormons believe in three beings for one purpose but call themselves Christian. Glenn Beck being the most famous member of their church. Church of Christ tend to be like the Baptist but they add Baptism as a requirement for salvation. Catholics believe the pope is infallible, Mary is a co-Redeemer, priest are required for your sins to be forgiven, and you go to Hell Light (Purgatory) if its been to long since your last confession. this is a brief example why I feel they are not worshiping the same God. A better way to say it would have been I'm not sure they know who God is. (I'm sure they really care what I Think)
As far as gaps are concerned, I agree that is a tough concept to deal with. We agree there was a Large explosion billions of years ago that began time as we know it. We don't agree on what caused it though. I freely admit I can not explain a God who never had a beginning. And from the other view point how does everything come from nothing. If that was not hard enough, define nothing. Even empty space is something.
The concept of a trinity God has not been much of a problem for me. to put it simply( the only way I know how) We are made in the image of God having a body soul and spirit. So why would He not also have a Body, Soul, and Spirit? Even a computer, which is made in the image of man has a body, operating system and programs.
You may can tell I have ADD and my thoughts jump from place to place. Sorry. In unrelated news if my Kids Church of Christ based high-school football team can make it to the 2a finals we will likely face Grace Christian from Knoxville. I've already started working on a name for the game but to use your help. Right now I'm leaning toward Dogma Bowl.
 
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