Question about Caldwell's sub system

[cabbie191]

Because I am a guest on your site and don't read every post out there (but I do read a lot of them because this is an excellent site for informed commentary!), my apologies if my question is something that has been discussed previously.

In all the discussion about the system Kim employs with wholesale line switching, do you know if any reporter has ever asked her point blank what she sees as the benefits/advantages of doing this at this level of competition? If so, what has she cited?

Thank you!

 

[Rooster1]

Because I am a guest on your site and don't read every post out there (but I do read a lot of them because this is an excellent site for informed commentary!), my apologies if my question is something that has been discussed previously.

In all the discussion about the system Kim employs with wholesale line switching, do you know if any reporter has ever asked her point blank what she sees as the benefits/advantages of doing this at this level of competition? If so, what has she cited?

Thank you!

It’s a wasted trip baby…nobody said nothing about locking horns with no tigers….

 

[VolFan_stuck_in_the_901]

I think her response would be that the purpose is to keep player's fresh - the system is apparently very taxing/stamina draining - but almost every person in the fanbase to a man/woman would say it's among the first things they'd want to see scrapped/changed in the offseason

 

[37620VOL]

The general thought is that you want your players going max effort for the entire game. No human is designed to go max effort in basketball for more than about 3 minutes tops. If you want proof just look at the difference in pace in the 200/400 track events. The athlete sprinting the 200 is pretty gassed at the end, but give them a couple minutes rest and they can go again just a fraction off the original pace, maybe 3% slower. With the 400, same deal, but you end up 10% slower because lactate and acidosis are very high and you've spent all your phosphocreatine in an all-out sprint, you're completely gassed. So, translating that to basketball and a baseline-to-baseline press, you want to sub out before getting completely gassed, so that you can recover quicker and get back in there at 100% effort with no noticeable performance decline.

I think it's complicated to do this in SEC basketball, especially big TV games, because there are so many stoppages in play that the cumulative effect of the baseline-to-baseline press doesn't wear on your opponent like it would in HS, AAU, or small conference basketball. IMO, reasonable adjustments to the system need to be made.

 

[Rooster1]

The general thought is that you want your players going max effort for the entire game. No human is designed to go max effort in basketball for more than about 3 minutes tops. If you want proof just look at the difference in pace in the 200/400 track events. The athlete sprinting the 200 is pretty gassed at the end, but give them a couple minutes rest and they can go again just a fraction off the original pace, maybe 3% slower. With the 400, same deal, but you end up 10% slower because lactate and acidosis are very high and you've spent all your phosphocreatine in an all-out sprint, you're completely gassed. So, translating that to basketball and a baseline-to-baseline press, you want to sub out before getting completely gassed, so that you can recover quicker and get back in there at 100% effort with no noticeable performance decline.

I think it's complicated to do this in SEC basketball, especially big TV games, because there are so many stoppages in play that the cumulative effect of the baseline-to-baseline press doesn't wear on your opponent like it would in HS, AAU, or small conference basketball. IMO, reasonable adjustments to the system need to be made.

In the track events there is no stoppage. In basketball there are constant stoppages (fouls, turnovers, transitions, timeouts, free throws etc etc) and even if brief it makes a world of difference in your analogy. Well conditioned BB players can play at very high levels for Much longer than 2-4 minute spurts, some of which is due to the stoppages that are part of the game.

The second part of that quick sub pattern that needs to be mentioned is that when a top 5 player(s) is replaced, chances are the substitute doesn’t bring the same amount of skill to the game on either offense or defense, maybe both. A slightly winded Booker or Blakes for example are apt to still outperform a fresh replacement for her. Same for every team’s top players.

 

[orangemadam]

For those of you who seem to have a negative view of Caldwell, in Barnes talk after the State game last night,
he referenced his team as "they" and named several of his players that slacked a couple times in the
second half, including Ament at one point.

I know that Barnes has won that right, however.....

Need to give Kim a little more time before knee-capping her the way you did Harper. JMO

 

[glv98]

Need to give Kim a little more time before knee-capping her the way you did Harper. JMO

Fortunately no one here has the slightest ability to influence how much time Kim is given and also were uninvolved in the knee capping of Kelly. It's all just idle fan chatter around here.

I think it's complicated to do this in SEC basketball, especially big TV games, because there are so many stoppages in play that the cumulative effect of the baseline-to-baseline press doesn't wear on your opponent like it would in HS, AAU, or small conference basketball. IMO, reasonable adjustments to the system need to be made.

In a way the system works against itself by creating the very stoppages that lets opponents catch their breath. Our purpose in life is turnovers , but every turnover equals stoppage. The high pressure defense also causes us to foul alot and more stoppages. it's another way the system is pretzel logic.

 

[chuckiepoo]

Fortunately no one here has the slightest ability to influence how much time Kim is given and also were uninvolved in the knee capping of Kelly. It's all just idle fan chatter around here.

In a way the system works against itself by creating the very stoppages that lets opponents catch their breath. Our purpose in life is turnovers , but every turnover equals stoppage. The high pressure defense also causes us to foul alot and more stoppages. it's another way the system is pretzel logic.

…couldn’t resist…

 

[chuckiepoo]

…where did you get those shoes?

 

[glv98]

…couldn’t resist…

Exactly why I put it out there!

 

[madtownvol]

In the track events there is no stoppage. In basketball there are constant stoppages (fouls, turnovers, transitions, timeouts, free throws etc etc) and even if brief it makes a world of difference in your analogy. Well conditioned BB players can play at very high levels for Much longer than 2-4 minute spurts, some of which is due to the stoppages that are part of the game.

The second part of that quick sub pattern that needs to be mentioned is that when a top 5 player(s) is replaced, chances are the substitute doesn’t bring the same amount of skill to the game on either offense or defense, maybe both. A slightly winded Booker or Blakes for example are apt to still outperform a fresh replacement for her. Same for every team’s top players.

Exactly. CKC would hate professional soccer matches where you are only allowed five subs over the course of a 90 game.

So, are pro soccer players perpetually performing at a sub-optimal level? Probably not.

Training can reduce the time it takes to replenish ATP-CP stores which is the main driver of fatigue and decreased performance. You can get it down to a minute. Importantly, that recovery process is aided by movement and not sitting on a bench.

Track athletes (the world of my younger days) will typically do a short jog of 30-60 seconds between an interval sprint,. We don't sit down or stop moving.

In b-ball, side outs, FTs, TOs, refs coming together to review a play, and the myriad other stoppages are going to be ample opportunity for ATP recovery.

This is not my opinion, It is just documented sports science knowledge.

 

[Volfan2012]

For those of you who seem to have a negative view of Caldwell, in Barnes talk after the State game last night,
he referenced his team as "they" and named several of his players that slacked a couple times in the
second half, including Ament at one point.

I know that Barnes has won that right, however.....

Need to give Kim a little more time before knee-capping her the way you did Harper. JMO

She has the time regardless of the grumbling. She is here this year next year probably the next unless the train runs totally off the track. She may need a lot more NIL support as looks like a few of the teams have already upped the total. Always until the end of time going to take players more than coaches. Even us minions can see flaws in this roster yet still a surprise we can't stay within even 20 of the best team out there.

 

[Rooster1]

Exactly. CKC would hate professional soccer matches where you are only allowed five subs a game over the course of a 90 game.

So, are soccer players perpetually performing at a sub-optimal level? Probably not.

Training can reduce the time it takes to replenish ATP-CP stores which is the main driver of fatigue and decreased performance. You can get it down to a minute. Importantly, that recovery process is aided by movement and not sitting on a bench.

Track athletes (the world of my younger days) will typically do a short jog of 30-60 seconds between an interval sprint,. We don't sit down or stop moving.

In b-ball, side outs, FTs, TOs, refs coming together to review a play, and the myriad other stoppages are going to be ample opportunity for ATP recovery.

This is not my opinion, It is just documented sports science knowledge.

Mad, I like the soccer reference. I played soccer in college and later I coached travel soccer teams for 23 years at the SouthEastern Regionals levels. That was my hobby apart from work during those years. Your thoughts are spot on. Soccer players run between 6 and 8 miles per game depending on position. BB players average a little over two miles per game.

 

[mudcat1973]

Exactly. CKC would hate professional soccer matches where you are only allowed five subs over the course of a 90 game.

So, are pro soccer players perpetually performing at a sub-optimal level? Probably not.

Training can reduce the time it takes to replenish ATP-CP stores which is the main driver of fatigue and decreased performance. You can get it down to a minute. Importantly, that recovery process is aided by movement and not sitting on a bench.

Track athletes (the world of my younger days) will typically do a short jog of 30-60 seconds between an interval sprint,. We don't sit down or stop moving.

In b-ball, side outs, FTs, TOs, refs coming together to review a play, and the myriad other stoppages are going to be ample opportunity for ATP recovery.

This is not my opinion, It is just documented sports science knowledge.

Olympic and would cup soccer might be two subs.
@madforvols or guy who keeps up with lady Vols soccer
Help us out here.

What level of soccer was you referring to madtownvol
@MAD

 

[RespectAPA]

So, are pro soccer players perpetually performing at a sub-optimal level? Probably not.

My intuition is exactly the opposite: a soccer team that was allowed to sub freely would dominate a team that had to play by standard soccer rules, especially for last portion of the game. Do you disagree? or think that the truth of that doesn't actually address whether the dominated team would be playing "sub-optimally"?

 

[chuckiepoo]

Mad, I like the soccer reference. I played soccer in college and later I coached travel soccer teams for 23 years at the SouthEastern Regionals levels. That was my hobby apart from work during those years. Your thoughts are spot on. Soccer players run between 6 and 8 miles per game depending on position. BB players average a little over two miles per game.

This leads me to wonder if the ladies are using the same physiological monitors the men were using years ago when they started referencing to mileage Vescovi was running per practice/game.

 

[37620VOL]

Mad, I like the soccer reference. I played soccer in college and later I coached travel soccer teams for 23 years at the SouthEastern Regionals levels. That was my hobby apart from work during those years. Your thoughts are spot on. Soccer players run between 6 and 8 miles per game depending on position. BB players average a little over two miles per game.

Messi's just out there walking around 80% of the game. Was that not your style?

Seriously soccer covers a lot of ground but very little of it is at max effort.

 

[37620VOL]

In the track events there is no stoppage. In basketball there are constant stoppages (fouls, turnovers, transitions, timeouts, free throws etc etc) and even if brief it makes a world of difference in your analogy. Well conditioned BB players can play at very high levels for Much longer than 2-4 minute spurts, some of which is due to the stoppages that are part of the game.

The second part of that quick sub pattern that needs to be mentioned is that when a top 5 player(s) is replaced, chances are the substitute doesn’t bring the same amount of skill to the game on either offense or defense, maybe both. A slightly winded Booker or Blakes for example are apt to still outperform a fresh replacement for her. Same for every team’s top players.

Guy asked for the theory, I'm just giving the theory behind it. There are so many natural stoppages in sec level basketball that there is likely negative value in the fatigue factor.

 

[volfan102455]

The problem I have with the thought that you must substitute because it is too taxing on the players is that what UConn was doing at times was exactly what CKC is doing - but UConn did not need full scale substitution. The players showed no sign of being tired.

Maybe in the lower division where players are not as good or conditioned there is the need for the substitution. But players at the level she is at now should be better conditioned.

 

[Rooster1]

Messi's just out there walking around 80% of the game. Was that not your style?

Seriously soccer covers a lot of ground but very little of it is at max effort.

You lack knowledge of that sport, no worries. I don’t want to get into a discussion on this issue, but soccer players do run between 6-8 miles per game and if you understand what each player is responsible for and the ground needed to cover those responsibilities you would get a better understanding. It’s all good.

 

[37620VOL]

You lack knowledge of that sport, no worries. I don’t want to get into a discussion on this issue, but soccer players do run between 6-8 miles per game and if you understand what each player is responsible for and the ground needed to cover those responsibilities you would get a better understanding. It’s all good.

1. You have zero actual knowledge of my knowledge of that sport.
2. You basically parroted my original post. Some slight deviations but we come to the same conclusion.
3. Everything you're saying is common knowledge. I was having some fun with the Messi lore. Must be fun to go around pretending everyone else is an idiot, when actually...

 

[Rooster1]

1. You have zero actual knowledge of my knowledge of that sport.
2. You basically parroted my original post. Some slight deviations but we come to the same conclusion.
3. Everything you're saying is common knowledge. I was having some fun with the Messi lore. Must be fun to go around pretending everyone else is an idiot, when actually...

You are not unique. Lot of posters in your realm. Again, I won’t debate with you something you are not knowledgeable about, which you made very apparent in your previous posts. If you want to bark back at me and claim you have some ability to exchange soccer knowledge, have at it. It won’t make you look good if you choose to do it in a public forum like here. But go ahead. I would welcome it. You better be prepared and on your game, because I will absolutely destroy you if you choose to go there. Otherwise, peace.

You drew the blade first. Best be prepared to defend. Otherwise put it back in its sheath. My blade will cut deep on this topic If you press the attack. And my response will not give you any quarter or relief. I have no empathy for internet posters that attack someone with weak **** like you came against me with when it was uncalled for. Let it go.

 

[JohnTN]

I just don't understand the quick substitution before players could even be winded. At the start of the 2nd half CKC subbed all 5 players at the 9:07 mark. Less than a minute of game time and there were two stoppage during that first 53 seconds-- one stop was for a player to shoot 2 free throws and the second was for an out of bounds ball. How could any athlete be winded at that point?

 

[37620VOL]

You are not unique. Lot of posters in your realm. Again, I won’t debate with you something you are not knowledgeable about, which you made very apparent in your previous posts. If you want to bark back at me and claim you have some ability to exchange soccer knowledge, have at it. It won’t make you look good if you choose to do it in a public forum like here. But go ahead.

Weak, so weak

 

[glv98]

I just don't understand the quick substitution before players could even be winded. At the start of the 2nd half CKC subbed all 5 players at the 9:07 mark. Less than a minute of game time and there were two stoppage during that first 53 seconds-- one stop was for a player to shoot 2 free throws and the second was for an out of bounds ball. How could any athlete be winded at that point?

Yes, often the subbing is just cuz. Purposeful subbing is not usually a part of the system.