PRUITT's way

#76
#76
Vols1891 said:
This type of process and system only works if you can recruit at an elite level like Alabama. So unless you think Pruitt can out-recruit teams like Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Auburn, A&M, Florida, etc. on a consistent basis, we will never get to their level. We need to rely on schemes and actual player development to take the next step. Just trying to copy Alabama’s process but with less talented players will never work. Plus it’s going to be harder to recruit going forward if all the recruits think that Pruitt is on the hot seat. A new coach usually gets a little bump in recruiting that lasts for a year or two, but once that excitement of a new coach wears off, you have to start recruiting based off actual results instead of just hype.
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I agree with this . I think in my original post I said if he stumbles in recruiting it will be a disaster. The schemes on the field require specific top tier players. Fulmer has not to my knowledge issued any public vote of confidence . That or the lack thereof is very telling. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out
 
#77
#77
swampfoxfan said:
Only thing I can say to the" Pruitt is the savior crowd" is Georgia State.
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Does your opinion of Pruitt change if UT beat Ga. State? Probably not.

Pruitt would not have been my choice when he was hired and that loss (GSU) made me insane, just like everybody else with a pulse. But, if you can, look past the record. What I am seeing on the field, especially from the new players, leads me to conclude that Pruitt is moving in the right direction, especially with the roster.

Look. Give him a serviceable QB, just one safety that understands what a safety is supposed to do other than to make highlight hits, and a couple more healthy interior DLs and this team is 3-1 with relative ease. The "regression" observed this season appears to be exhibited by a limited number of individual players who, to me, have never really been as good as they have been hyped. JG has never been able to read the field with speed during a game. That was the word on him in HS, too, but Butch had to have him instead of, for example, Lawrence who he, essentially, rejected. The obvious and repeated misalignments on defense against GSU were largely avoided during the last two games. The confusion on offense has been reported by the players to be directly related to poor communication in the huddle, not the sideline. The wild O-line changes have stabilized and it has vastly improved even though it remains very, very young. The open middle zone on D is directly related to the nature of the defense and is the responsibility of the safeties who have, unfortunately, often been doing their own thing in many instances. That's not scheme or coaching. That's performance.

If this team actually was 3-1 with Ws over BYU and Ga State, the folks calling for Pruitt's head because he: a) is from Alabama, b) is bald, c) is challenged as a smooth public speaker, d) doesn't constantly kiss up to the fan base, or e) any combination of the above, would get run off of this site. I submit, however, that it would be the exact same team just with a different record. Few would be shouting for Pruitt's head. But the team would still need a vast overhaul.

If UT is 1-3 next year (and Pruitt will absolutely be the coach next year- he's bullet proof) I will be surprised and concerned, but this is not the time to give up on a hard reset to a 10 year old problem. He's headed in the right direction. Oh yea, it is painful. It's just like going to the dentist. Go Vols!
 
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#78
#78
majic73 said:
I agree with this . I think in my original post I said if he stumbles in recruiting it will be a disaster. The schemes on the field require specific top tier players. Fulmer has not to my knowledge issued any public vote of confidence . That or the lack thereof is very telling. It will be interesting to see how this shakes out
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Yeah, I wasn’t saying I disagreed with you or anything...was basically just trying to emphasize the same point that you were making.
 
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#79
#79
majic73 said:
Whatever your personnel /platoon argument is ...its still a 34 philosophy. All nickel coverages are not created alike . If a star is in coverage or not , or in run support or not is really not relevant ...its the primary keys that makes it a 34. I can quote Pruitt or Saban on their 34 philosophy. So a 245 end is not the same as a 275 or 280 lb end . The way they rush is typically not the same. Many times , they are not knuckle down . Again , a completely different philosophy and a different set of keys and responsibilities.

There are plenty of overlaps between 34 and 43 , but they are two different philosophies administered in two different ways with variation within both. We run a 34 shell. At many positions we don't have the appropriate players at this point. Yes we align as a 4-2 and a dime and several variants ...but we still play out of the 34 shell just like 43 teams play nickel and dimes but are 43 philosophies. A 52 double eagle can morph to a nickle or quarters ….but it is still a 52 sub set
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obviously all teams have different philosophy not all 4-3 or 3-4 teams are the same. some dline gap control, 2 Gap, Penetrate, different linebacker philosophies. one high 2 high coverages. what college even front team is playing 2 280 lb defensive ends right. 3/4 or 4/3 is an alignment or personnel grouping not a team philosphy. u r the one that brought up the stars role in the defense do even know the different pass coverages we run.
 
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#81
#81
I would be happy seeing a team play hard every week, play intelligent and like they are well coached, the coaches make good substitutions and play calls even if it means they are 2-2 right now (losing to Ga State is a tattoo on Pruitts head). So far, i see none of this and this has NOTHING to do with the lack of talent.
 
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#83
#83
majic73 said:
I can't speak to absolute fact , this is strictly my personal observation. This is not an endorsement of CJP or an excuse , because again I can't verify this as fact only an educated guess based on observation. There seems to be a stubborn , dogmatic system building mentality without concern for results. He has modeled the program , the quality control , and the very talented staff on the Bama model . He models his recruiting a player selection on this model as well . He comes in and installs a 34 defense with a hodge podge of defenders that were not very good in a 43. He installs a pro style read and react multi level offense that is QB dependent when the only QB he has is a kid that got the last staff fired. Both the offense and the defense require very specific player types....of which we simply do not have. If you recall the Sal 34 we attempted to install during the Dooley years. This transition is even more disastrous when you are short on talent and depth across the front and youth at linebacker. You can't run this offense without an accomplished playcaller ...not necessarily an athletic QB , but a guy that recognizes fronts and protections.

With Pruitts experience and exposure to top shelf programs and the recruiting abilities he shown , he knows exactly what he has and does not have on his roster. His staff is a collection of talent and experience that would not miss the obvious personnel weaknesses. So why the refusal to play dumbed down systems that fit the talent level of the team ? I think his philosophy is recruiting and building the personnel to fit the system rather than fitting the system to the personnel. He is building an NFL organization that is manned by youth and third stringers. If this is the case and he pulls it off by getting the correct athletes in place , we will have a top tier system. If he stumbles in recruiting , then this will be an unmitigated disaster. I personally think you build a system framework and fit that to your existing squad . Maybe this team should be a 43 hybrid type with a basic run heavy play action O and then build to your desired system based on the recruiting class(s).I am not sure that CGP will be given enough rope to fill his system with appropriate players.

To sum this up , I think building the system is of greater importance than playing within the current rosters capabilities and by extension , the system is more important than winning in the mind of the staff ( CJP ) .
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He had 9 months to model a Ga. St. win and how did that turn out...Try modeling with BM or Shrout as your QB and see if we are improving after 3 games...you model in order to prevent mistakes before they happen....
JG is a good kid and nothing against him its just that you can't win multiple games with JG as your QB....you move other parts of your model around so why hasn't he his QB....
 
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#84
#84
wmcovol said:
I would be happy seeing a team play hard every week, play intelligent and like they are well coached, the coaches make good substitutions and play calls even if it means they are 2-2 right now (losing to Ga State is a tattoo on Pruitts head). So far, i see none of this and this has NOTHING to do with the lack of talent.
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If we were 2-2 I would still be back to lurking on VN, because I'd have nothing to gripe about. 2-2 is about what I expected at this point, after what I saw last year. If we looked like we were improving that would be reasonable.
 
#85
#85
CJP can be as obstinate as you suspect him to be. The state of the university and the state of the athletics department dictate a minimum of 4 years of CJP. Benjamins, people.

Pruitt’s buyout if he is fired “without cause” is $6 million if he is let go before December 15th of 2018 and decreases by a million dollars every year until 2022 when there would be no payment due him if he is fired without cause on or after December 15th of 2022.
 
#86
#86
Vols1891 said:
This type of process and system only works if you can recruit at an elite level like Alabama. So unless you think Pruitt can out-recruit teams like Alabama, Georgia, LSU, Auburn, A&M, Florida, etc. on a consistent basis, we will never get to their level. We need to rely on schemes and actual player development to take the next step. Just trying to copy Alabama’s process but with less talented players will never work. Plus it’s going to be harder to recruit going forward if all the recruits think that Pruitt is on the hot seat. A new coach usually gets a little bump in recruiting that lasts for a year or two, but once that excitement of a new coach wears off, you have to start recruiting based off actual results instead of just hype.
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And what is Saban’s “system”? It has evolved over the last 13 years.

What has remained consistent is the recruiting to a plan, developing players, and using information.

I think Pruitt is doing fine even if the record doesn’t yet show that.
 
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#87
#87
Bob Neyland said:
And what is Saban’s “system”? It has evolved over the last 13 years.

What has remained consistent is the recruiting to a plan, developing players, and using information.

I think Pruitt is doing fine even if the record doesn’t yet show that.
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You are what your record says you are.
 
#88
#88
Pride85 said:
I hope you are wrong, but I cannot refute what you are saying. Some regression can be expected due to new players at various positions. Pruitt doesn't use that as an excuse, but it is reality. Look at the number of starters on both sides of the ball who are first year starters, or back from season long injuries. If there is any more regression, it very well could show our head coach is in over his head right now.
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I hope I’m wrong too.

We probably won’t know everything by even the end of the season, but we will know more. I hope to see big improvements, just jilted I guess and don’t think we will.
 
#89
#89
Bob Neyland said:
And what is Saban’s “system”? It has evolved over the last 13 years.

What has remained consistent is the recruiting to a plan, developing players, and using information.

I think Pruitt is doing fine even if the record doesn’t yet show that.
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What would a situation in which the coach wasn’t doing fine look like to you?
 
#91
#91
zydane47 said:
You do realize that ULM only beat Bama by 7 that game?

They also got out gained in yards by Bama, but the one place they won was turnovers, and they used those turnovers to get points.

Where as this team got dominated up and down the field by Georgia State. That’s horrible no matter how you try to spin it
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You do realize they still lost to ULM no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it?
 
#92
#92
1TheCoach1 said:
You do realize they still lost to ULM no matter what kind of spin you try to put on it?
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True they still lost, but again first year, and turnovers.

Pruitt lost to a team that hasn't been around for more than 10 years and in his second year with the team and they got the brakes beat off them. If you can't see the difference then maybe you should watch a different sport.
 
#93
#93
wmcovol said:
That was Saban's first year. He went 12-0 his second year.
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He actually went 12-2 his second year and he also didn't deal with mass defections or coming off the worst season in school history. Saban also wasn't limited to 25 scholarships per class. It is not remotely close to the same situation.
 
#94
#94
majic73 said:
I can't speak to absolute fact , this is strictly my personal observation. This is not an endorsement of CJP or an excuse , because again I can't verify this as fact only an educated guess based on observation. There seems to be a stubborn , dogmatic system building mentality without concern for results. He has modeled the program , the quality control , and the very talented staff on the Bama model . He models his recruiting a player selection on this model as well . He comes in and installs a 34 defense with a hodge podge of defenders that were not very good in a 43. He installs a pro style read and react multi level offense that is QB dependent when the only QB he has is a kid that got the last staff fired. Both the offense and the defense require very specific player types....of which we simply do not have. If you recall the Sal 34 we attempted to install during the Dooley years. This transition is even more disastrous when you are short on talent and depth across the front and youth at linebacker. You can't run this offense without an accomplished playcaller ...not necessarily an athletic QB , but a guy that recognizes fronts and protections.

With Pruitts experience and exposure to top shelf programs and the recruiting abilities he shown , he knows exactly what he has and does not have on his roster. His staff is a collection of talent and experience that would not miss the obvious personnel weaknesses. So why the refusal to play dumbed down systems that fit the talent level of the team ? I think his philosophy is recruiting and building the personnel to fit the system rather than fitting the system to the personnel. He is building an NFL organization that is manned by youth and third stringers. If this is the case and he pulls it off by getting the correct athletes in place , we will have a top tier system. If he stumbles in recruiting , then this will be an unmitigated disaster. I personally think you build a system framework and fit that to your existing squad . Maybe this team should be a 43 hybrid type with a basic run heavy play action O and then build to your desired system based on the recruiting class(s).I am not sure that CGP will be given enough rope to fill his system with appropriate players.

To sum this up , I think building the system is of greater importance than playing within the current rosters capabilities and by extension , the system is more important than winning in the mind of the staff ( CJP ) .
Click to expand...

If he is doing everything you suspect, then he deserves to be fired. Hear me out. A good coach fits his system to the players he has and slowly builds his way up. The 'clean house' on day one guys do not really succeed or last long enough to succeed.

If Pruitt failed to assert that he didn't have talent to get his system executed properly, he should have moved slowly. We are not talking about taking time to get competitive while installing Pruitt's system, we are talking about losing to a 2-10 GAST while installing that system. If a system is so complicated that 4-5* can't beat GAST then the system will never succeed in college coz guess what ? College kids graduate and leave while you only get limited 20-hour a week installs during Spring and Summer.

Hope this makes sense.
 
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#98
#98
volmandu said:
If he is doing everything you suspect, then he deserves to be fired. Hear me out. A good coach fits his system to the players he has and slowly builds his way up. The 'clean house' on day one guys do not really succeed or last long enough to succeed.

If Pruitt failed to assert that he didn't have talent to get his system executed properly, he should have moved slowly. We are not talking about taking time to get competitive while installing Pruitt's system, we are talking about losing to a 2-10 GAST while installing that system. If a system is so complicated that 4-5* can't beat GAST then the system will never succeed in college coz guess what ? College kids graduate and leave while you only get limited 20-hour a week installs during Spring and Summer.

Hope this makes sense.
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I don't disagree with you at all. I said in my original post that system building and patience seems to be his approach but I don't endorse that. I think a gradual progression and transition is the way to go , win some games , maybe go to a bowl . Install the complexities of the system as the players develop and you get players in. I question why JG has been turned loose this year , when he was closely managed last year. Perhaps he is a great practice player and they miscalculated . I am not sure. It is a boom or bust method. If he keeps doing well recruiting this will go very well . If he missteps recruiting , has a bad cycle ...he is done
 
#99
#99
Bob Neyland said:
And what is Saban’s “system”? It has evolved over the last 13 years.

What has remained consistent is the recruiting to a plan, developing players, and using information.

I think Pruitt is doing fine even if the record doesn’t yet show that.
Click to expand...

I think a lot of posters have made some really valid points on here. Your point may not be the popular view , but I don't think it is a bad one. I have said that this approach may pay really high dividends if he continues to do well on the recruiting trail. This approach could also fall apart badly if he has a bad recruiting cycle.

I think we were further down than most people see as a result of the multiple coaching changes we have endured. Players develop physically and mentally at a different rate. It is pretty well agreed that Butch did not coach fundamental football , nor did he have an S&C program. So , some of the upper classmen are physically and in a football IQ sense , two years behind . I think the football IQ thing can grow academically at a fast rate ...but rep experience usually need time . Physical development in the weigh room is fixed . You can't make it go faster ...unless anabolic hormones are used . The upper classmen are physically behind in terms of football reps and S&C. This was apparent with the O-line last year. They seem to be much improved this year. JG is not...but he is unfortunately two years behind . He spent his first couple of years playing back yard football. No he is in a pro-set offense and is clueless.

I do wish that a more gradual progression was made by the staff to installs schemes that are within the talent scope of the guys that are on the team today
 
#100
#100
OakdaleVol said:
give me specific schemes that do not work. because almost every team is running pattern matching zones and man due to advancement in offenses plus the addition of the rpo. what specific schemes would u run to give inferior talent a tactical advantage.
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