Problems with the Offense

[majic73]

I have seen alot on here about fire Debord , fire the O line coach ect. I think the problems goes much deeper than that and I don't think that doing those things will necessarily fix the problems. Debord is an I form , smash mouth coach...this scheme is not his baby. Its Butch's.

This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate. We run the zone concepts some ...but not often. We also run wheel route and gap schemes some ...but we are not a 'gap scheme' spread. When I think of a zone-spread scheme I think of Oregon, where every play is predicated off the zone read.

This system is much more complex. It is based out of the 4 vertical concept..but the passing scheme with some variation is a layered west coast scheme. The idea is to spread the defense vertically and horizontally and allow you to run a power running game with only 5 blockers...hence the zone blocking scheme, which in theory will allow you to put more hats at the point of attack than there are defenders.

In order to run an effective west coast passing tree, you need a QB that makes quick decisions, is accurate, and consistent. Think Joe Montana, Peyton Manning. The ball is gone and on target in 2.4 seconds.

Dobbs cannot complete intermediate passes consistently. The defenses do not respect the the passing game. You then get 6 or 7 defenders in the box. 5 O linemen cannot block 6 or 7. The running back and / or running QB cannot make consistent gains when there are more defenders than blockers. They cant get second level, even if the backers fall to a soft zone they have not sold out on the pass and can attack down hill on the run.

To say that this is a QB dependent system is an understatement. What concerns me most of all...is that at this point the coaches must know what Dobbs is and is not capable of . They have to know that Hurd is a pound it between the tackles guy. So why are we hand cuffed to this system that is a fail with the guys we have ? Dobbs , Hurd , Wolfe...would all be excellent I form guys . Dobbs on roll outs , ROPs , real option ..Hurd with enough blockers at the point of attack would dominate. If you dont want to go that far...just add additional blockers , H backs , become a zone read offense to take advantage of Dobbs skill set.

The answers are there , somebody just seems bent on doing it there way

 

[TAF]

I find this thread Offensive...

 

[temptn]

There's a problem with the offense??

 

[Remy]

There's a problem with the offense??

It's not xs & os, it's the Jimmies & Joe's in our case.

 

[nash101]

It's what we've been saying for 4 years. Butch loves this scheme and is stubborn to change it no matter who the key players are.
Have an NFL raid grader line? Make them learn his new finesse blocking and line up in shotgun so we can't pick up one yard against Vandy and lose the game

Have Worley at QB? Tough kid and decent pocket passer? No matter, let's cram that read option anyway even though every one knows he won't run

The examples go on and on. The bowl game last year was the only time I've seen them put in a wrinkle and it was very effective (10 yards per carry out of the I).

 

[UT Hill Man]

Kind of a junk offense. NFL dreamers are not as likely to jump on board after seeing the results.

 

[kid50]

It's not xs & os, it's the Jimmies & Joe's in our case.

Kinda agree. This scheme can work in the SEC. Auburn and A&M run similar versions of it. I'm not really sure the players are the issue either. We've recruited as well as those two programs have on the offensive side of the ball, but it's clear that our coaching is lacking the ability to develop it. We like to make Debord the scapegoat, and I agree he is pretty bad, but I tend to blame Azzani and Mahoney more than him. I also blame Butch for not having anybody on staff that is a QB coach. Dobbs is the same player he was when he took over as starter and I credit that to not having a QB coach. That's what worries me about the QD and JG, we hope and expect them to be better, but its possible they haven't been coached up well either.

 

[majic73]

It's what we've been saying for 4 years. Butch loves this scheme and is stubborn to change it no matter who the key players are.
Have an NFL raid grader line? Make them learn his new finesse blocking and line up in shotgun so we can't pick up one yard against Vandy and lose the game

Have Worley at QB? Tough kid and decent pocket passer? No matter, let's cram that read option anyway even though every one knows he won't run

The examples go on and on. The bowl game last year was the only time I've seen them put in a wrinkle and it was very effective (10 yards per carry out of the I).

yes ...and I got the feeling in last years bowl that they were looking at the idea of going under center and running some I based formations .

 

[Vols4ever]

Dobbs, when he runs, this offense is not bad at all. Dobbs rarely keeps this year. Defense zeroes in on RB.

 

[kid50]

It's what we've been saying for 4 years. Butch loves this scheme and is stubborn to change it no matter who the key players are.
Have an NFL raid grader line? Make them learn his new finesse blocking and line up in shotgun so we can't pick up one yard against Vandy and lose the game

Have Worley at QB? Tough kid and decent pocket passer? No matter, let's cram that read option anyway even though every one knows he won't run

The examples go on and on. The bowl game last year was the only time I've seen them put in a wrinkle and it was very effective (10 yards per carry out of the I).

All pretty true. Once you have your base scheme, you then have to mold it to the players you have, not mold your players to the scheme. All good coaches mold the scheme to the players - it's what Kiffin has done every year at Bama, that offense hasn't been the exact same once. All the basic principles are there and you see them in every game, but the scheme and play calls are different every year to fit the players. Bielema likes a run-heavy offense, but this year he's passing more since his QB is better than his RB's. Malzhan tried so hard for a year and a half to become a more pass heavy team, but then realized he just didn't have the QB to do that so he went back to his old ways and now they're running over everyone. Butch never tries to mold the scheme to his players, he expects them to mold to it and it's not working, that's why we're starting to see some guys leave. I think that's why Dobbs is struggling so much this year, they've tried to make him a pocket passer and he's just not. He's a runner and they're not using him like that anymore.

 

[majic73]

All pretty true. Once you have your base scheme, you then have to mold it to the players you have, not mold your players to the scheme. All good coaches mold the scheme to the players - it's what Kiffin has done every year at Bama, that offense hasn't been the exact same once. All the basic principles are there and you see them in every game, but the scheme and play calls are different every year to fit the players. Bielema likes a run-heavy offense, but this year he's passing more since his QB is better than his RB's. Malzhan tried so hard for a year and a half to become a more pass heavy team, but then realized he just didn't have the QB to do that so he went back to his old ways and now they're running over everyone. Butch never tries to mold the scheme to his players, he expects them to mold to it and it's not working, that's why we're starting to see some guys leave. I think that's why Dobbs is struggling so much this year, they've tried to make him a pocket passer and he's just not. He's a runner and they're not using him like that anymore.

YES!! you noted Auburn and Tamu in your previous post . There systems are nothing like ours ! Tamu runs a conceptual offense , much simpler and more straight forward with much less thinking involved for the QB. Auburn basically runs a wing-T all spread out. A high school offense that is not mind numbing at all. This West Coast passing dream that Butch is trying to run , layered from top to bottom , requires a very special QB. I agree that Dobbs should be utilized for the skill set that he has !

 

[kid50]

YES!! you noted Auburn and Tamu in your previous post . There systems are nothing like ours ! Tamu runs a conceptual offense , much simpler and more straight forward with much less thinking involved for the QB. Auburn basically runs a wing-T all spread out. A high school offense that is not mind numbing at all. This West Coast passing dream that Butch is trying to run , layered from top to bottom , requires a very special QB. I agree that Dobbs should be utilized for the skill set that he has !

Yeah you are right. The point is was trying to make though about being similar was all three offenses are kinda fundamentally based on RPO's and spreading you out even though they're all different schemes. Just kinda refuting the fact that a RPO/hurry-up offense doesn't work. A&M, Bama, and Auburn all take the players on their rosters and figure out how to maximize their talents then make their schemes fit that talent. I have yet to see our staff do that with anyone.

 

[Certifiedhands11]

I have seen alot on here about fire Debord , fire the O line coach ect. I think the problems goes much deeper than that and I don't think that doing those things will necessarily fix the problems. Debord is an I form , smash mouth coach...this scheme is not his baby. Its Butch's.

This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate. We run the zone concepts some ...but not often. We also run wheel route and gap schemes some ...but we are not a 'gap scheme' spread. When I think of a zone-spread scheme I think of Oregon, where every play is predicated off the zone read.

This system is much more complex. It is based out of the 4 vertical concept..but the passing scheme with some variation is a layered west coast scheme. The idea is to spread the defense vertically and horizontally and allow you to run a power running game with only 5 blockers...hence the zone blocking scheme, which in theory will allow you to put more hats at the point of attack than there are defenders.

In order to run an effective west coast passing tree, you need a QB that makes quick decisions, is accurate, and consistent. Think Joe Montana, Peyton Manning. The ball is gone and on target in 2.4 seconds.

Dobbs cannot complete intermediate passes consistently. The defenses do not respect the the passing game. You then get 6 or 7 defenders in the box. 5 O linemen cannot block 6 or 7. The running back and / or running QB cannot make consistent gains when there are more defenders than blockers. They cant get second level, even if the backers fall to a soft zone they have not sold out on the pass and can attack down hill on the run.

To say that this is a QB dependent system is an understatement. What concerns me most of all...is that at this point the coaches must know what Dobbs is and is not capable of . They have to know that Hurd is a pound it between the tackles guy. So why are we hand cuffed to this system that is a fail with the guys we have ? Dobbs , Hurd , Wolfe...would all be excellent I form guys . Dobbs on roll outs , ROPs , real option ..Hurd with enough blockers at the point of attack would dominate. If you dont want to go that far...just add additional blockers , H backs , become a zone read offense to take advantage of Dobbs skill set.

The answers are there , somebody just seems bent on doing it there way

I agree with most of what you said, but there seem to be some contradictions in your explanation.
Butch's offensive scheme has become known as "Smashmouth Spread". It's core concepts are based around the inside zone, instead of the zone-read. The zone-read is also incorporated a fair amount, but not near as much as your average fan might think. They do run some gap schemes as well, but that is also only sprinkled in. (For those who are thinkin wtf is that? Gap principles get offensive lineman pulling and moving, out on the boundary and playing with moment. They look to shift the point of attack to the boundary or create mismatches at the line of scrimmage.)
The literal definition of spread offense is: "An offense that uses multiple wide receivers (usually 3 or more) with the goal to stretch the defense out along the line of scrimmage. The spread wide receivers also run routes to different areas of the field to stretch the defenders vertically and horizontally down the field."

Which is on par with what you said, only it was right after saying, "This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate." It's not THAT inaccurate, really.. kinda... but not really.
Then you mentioned the West Coast passing scheme, in the same sentence that word for word is the definition of a spread offense. A West Coast scheme is all route running and timing, like you said, designed to get the ball out of the QB's hand ASAP. So if a spread offense is designed to "spread out and stretch the defense/field", a West Coast scheme would be impossible to incorporate. They are polar opposites.
The fact that Butch's scheme relies heavily on the QB couldn't be more true. It's also very physically and mentally tough for OL to perfect, especially the Center (Hence why it's been a revolving door at that position, seemingly since Butch arrived).
All in all, you definitely know A LOT more about X's and O's than most. Kudos for that.
Sorry for the novel. GBO.

 

[majic73]

I agree with most of what you said, but there seem to be some contradictions in your explanation.
Butch's offensive scheme has become known as "Smashmouth Spread". It's core concepts are based around the inside zone, instead of the zone-read. The zone-read is also incorporated a fair amount, but not near as much as your average fan might think. They do run some gap schemes as well, but that is also only sprinkled in. (For those who are thinkin wtf is that? Gap principles get offensive lineman pulling and moving, out on the boundary and playing with moment. They look to shift the point of attack to the boundary or create mismatches at the line of scrimmage.)
The literal definition of spread offense is: "An offense that uses multiple wide receivers (usually 3 or more) with the goal to stretch the defense out along the line of scrimmage. The spread wide receivers also run routes to different areas of the field to stretch the defenders vertically and horizontally down the field."

Which is on par with what you said, only it was right after saying, "This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate." It's not THAT inaccurate, really.. kinda... but not really.
Then you mentioned the West Coast passing scheme, in the same sentence that word for word is the definition of a spread offense. A West Coast scheme is all route running and timing, like you said, designed to get the ball out of the QB's hand ASAP. So if a spread offense is designed to "spread out and stretch the defense/field", a West Coast scheme would be impossible to incorporate. They are polar opposites.
The fact that Butch's scheme relies heavily on the QB couldn't be more true. It's also very physically and mentally tough for OL to perfect, especially the Center (Hence why it's been a revolving door at that position, seemingly since Butch arrived).
All in all, you definitely know A LOT more about X's and O's than most. Kudos for that.
Sorry for the novel. GBO.

I like that you filled in the gaps and added to. To clarify ...I said the passing tree is 'variation' of a layered west coast. They prefer intermediate to short passing and very rarely go deep. I think it would be a better 'system' if it was reliant on the inside zone instead of a mish mash of concepts. I have never been a huge fan of systems that build the run off of the pass. I would rather see an attack that can exploit your opponents weaknesses. Having 4 receivers when you can't deliver to one receiver is a waste . Go with two or three and add the blockers. Overall, I think this offense is too complex for all but the most sophisticated QB and it is easily tripped up by SEC caliber defenses.

 

[08Vol]

It's not xs & os, it's the Jimmies & Joe's in our case.

Agree completely with this. Our offense is very similar with the one that Urban Meyer is running at Ohio State. Dobbs has been a liability this year outside the UF and aTm game. I think we're seeing the result of Dobbs dealing with the senior year of an extremely difficult major that is taking time away from film study, sleep, extra time in the weight room.

 

[kid50]

Agree completely with this. Our offense is very similar with the one that Urban Meyer is running at Ohio State. Dobbs has been a liability this year outside the UF and aTm game. I think we're seeing the result of Dobbs dealing with the senior year of an extremely difficult major that is taking time away from film study, sleep, extra time in the weight room.

I don't want to get this thread off topic so I'll keep it short and this is obviously just my opinion, but I think Butch and Jalen are both to blame for this issue that's going on right now and I think this has had an effect on Dobbs. That was arguably the worst game he's played as a Vol and he even looked very distracted and just different in the game. I think what has been going on has been a huge distraction to everyone on the offense, especially Dobbs. He's had to worry if everyone would do their job or not when Hurd was in the game. JMO, but I truly think this whole situation has had a big effect on Dobbs.

 

[Certifiedhands11]

I like that you filled in the gaps and added to. To clarify ...I said the passing tree is 'variation' of a layered west coast. They prefer intermediate to short passing and very rarely go deep. I think it would be a better 'system' if it was reliant on the inside zone instead of a mish mash of concepts. I have never been a huge fan of systems that build the run off of the pass. I would rather see an attack that can exploit your opponents weaknesses. Having 4 receivers when you can deliver to one receiver is a waste . Go with two or three and add the blockers. Overall, I think this offense is too complex for all but the most sophisticated QB and it is easily tripped up by SEC caliber defenses.

You hit the nail on the head about it being a "mish-mash" of schemes. Hard to establish an identity when I'm not sure they themselves know exactly what they are, schematics wise. I don't know if they are trying to out-wit opposing defenses by throwing multiple schemes at them, but if that's the case, they are WAY over-thinking it. I've always been a believer in identifying who/what you are, offense or defense, and utilizing what you have WITHIN your scheme and perfecting those things. Of course, experimenting and adding a wrinkle here and there is a necessity.... but only to a degree.
This is Butch's offense, and DeBord is a "yes man" that isn't gonna challenge Butch's "chart", which is why I believe he was hired in the first place. Personally, albeit all the many injuries, Mahoney is the elephant in the room and hasnt shown much in the development of his lineman.... like at all.

 

[majic73]

You hit the nail on the head about it being a "mish-mash" of schemes. Hard to establish an identity when I'm not sure they themselves know exactly what they are, schematics wise. I don't know if they are trying to out-wit opposing defenses by throwing multiple schemes at them, but if that's the case, they are WAY over-thinking it. I've always been a believer in identifying who/what you are, offense or defense, and utilizing what you have WITHIN your scheme and perfecting those things. Of course, experimenting and adding a wrinkle here and there is a necessity.... but only to a degree.
This is Butch's offense, and DeBord is a "yes man" that isn't gonna challenge Butch's "chart", which is why I believe he was hired in the first place. Personally, albeit all the many injuries, Mahoney is the elephant in the room and hasnt shown much in the development of his lineman.... like at all.

agree 100%. Not developing players , not scheming to players strengths, over complicating things...all add up to failure

I dont think changing position coaches will help as much as Butch figuring out basic things his players do well and building off of it. I remember when Cutt had manning flinging it all over the field ...and then when Tee cam along they were a power running team and well placed QB runs.

 

[photovol]

Butch Jones unwillingness to adapt to his players says it all and his arrogance is beginning to anger the Vol faithful

I admit I was swept up in all the emotional Hype for 2016, but reality has a way bringing one back to earth quickly:thud:

 

[Mick]

I have seen alot on here about fire Debord , fire the O line coach ect. I think the problems goes much deeper than that and I don't think that doing those things will necessarily fix the problems. Debord is an I form , smash mouth coach...this scheme is not his baby. Its Butch's.

This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate. We run the zone concepts some ...but not often. We also run wheel route and gap schemes some ...but we are not a 'gap scheme' spread. When I think of a zone-spread scheme I think of Oregon, where every play is predicated off the zone read.

This system is much more complex. It is based out of the 4 vertical concept..but the passing scheme with some variation is a layered west coast scheme. The idea is to spread the defense vertically and horizontally and allow you to run a power running game with only 5 blockers...hence the zone blocking scheme, which in theory will allow you to put more hats at the point of attack than there are defenders.

In order to run an effective west coast passing tree, you need a QB that makes quick decisions, is accurate, and consistent. Think Joe Montana, Peyton Manning. The ball is gone and on target in 2.4 seconds.

Dobbs cannot complete intermediate passes consistently. The defenses do not respect the the passing game. You then get 6 or 7 defenders in the box. 5 O linemen cannot block 6 or 7. The running back and / or running QB cannot make consistent gains when there are more defenders than blockers. They cant get second level, even if the backers fall to a soft zone they have not sold out on the pass and can attack down hill on the run.

To say that this is a QB dependent system is an understatement. What concerns me most of all...is that at this point the coaches must know what Dobbs is and is not capable of . They have to know that Hurd is a pound it between the tackles guy. So why are we hand cuffed to this system that is a fail with the guys we have ? Dobbs , Hurd , Wolfe...would all be excellent I form guys . Dobbs on roll outs , ROPs , real option ..Hurd with enough blockers at the point of attack would dominate. If you dont want to go that far...just add additional blockers , H backs , become a zone read offense to take advantage of Dobbs skill set.

The answers are there , somebody just seems bent on doing it there way

The main suspect for our OL problems is Mahoney Where is the player development?
Passing game problems is an easy one: Dobbs.
Butch owns the scheme.
Debord is here to call plays during games, help with the OL and work with the QB's. Not doing such a good job.
RB's seem to be doing well. Don't see any issues with Gillespie.
WR's and TE's have had some drops but are getting open.

Debord is useless to keep around unless butch decides to hand him the reins. (Please no) Mahoney just has not done his job and is definitely not helped out by play calling and play calling is not helped out by Dobbs passing deficiencies and Dobbs passing abilities have not improved with the guidance of Debord.

The direction of this team is in CBJ hands and nothing is going to change before the end of the season scheme or staff wise. I expect to see staff changes after the season and we will probably not know anything about scheme changes, if any, before spring. A loss to Missouri might seal Butche's faith like it did Dooley but I feel he is safe for now. A loss to TTU and we should burn his mattress. If nothing changes maybe an accurate QB is the only thing we need but don't expect one to be named until a week before the season starts.

 

[Spawn]

It has nothing to do with the offense scheme. Plenty of colleges are running similar schemes. So stop with the garbage scheme. College football is full of this offense.

the problem is the OC can NOT call plays. He is predictable, can't adjust, and can not develop a QB. Dobbs has regressed under Debord. Time for him to go back to swimming.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

You hit the nail on the head about it being a "mish-mash" of schemes. Hard to establish an identity when I'm not sure they themselves know exactly what they are, schematics wise. I don't know if they are trying to out-wit opposing defenses by throwing multiple schemes at them, but if that's the case, they are WAY over-thinking it. I've always been a believer in identifying who/what you are, offense or defense, and utilizing what you have WITHIN your scheme and perfecting those things. Of course, experimenting and adding a wrinkle here and there is a necessity.... but only to a degree.
This is Butch's offense, and DeBord is a "yes man" that isn't gonna challenge Butch's "chart", which is why I believe he was hired in the first place. Personally, albeit all the many injuries, Mahoney is the elephant in the room and hasnt shown much in the development of his lineman.... like at all.

Nearly 4 seasons into his tenure, and no one ( including myself) can actually describe Jones' offense.

Either all the fans are football ignorant or there aren't any real concepts to this offense other than trying to mash some ideas together from various offenses Jones has culled over the years. Throw in a dash of football lexicon and talking down to fans and media for the last 3 seasons, and that's the crux of this offense.

Every successful offense has some bread and butter plays that give it an identity.

There is no discernible identity to this offense that I can see.

 

[majic73]

It has nothing to do with the offense scheme. Plenty of colleges are running similar schemes. So stop with the garbage scheme. College football is full of this offense.

the problem is the OC can NOT call plays. He is predictable, can't adjust, and can not develop a QB. Dobbs has regressed under Debord. Time for him to go back to swimming.

No one is running any scheme 'like' this. Yes there are teams that are 'spread; and that run zones...but nobody is asking a QB to do what we are asking our QB to do. Several very astute posters have mapped out what we are doing and why it is not working.

Its hard to know if Debord is bad or good. The QB cant hit intermediate passes. The box is filled with defenders, cant run. Not sure what else can be done ...except fix the broken scheme

 

[81Orange]

I have seen alot on here about fire Debord , fire the O line coach ect. I think the problems goes much deeper than that and I don't think that doing those things will necessarily fix the problems. Debord is an I form , smash mouth coach...this scheme is not his baby. Its Butch's.

This idea that this is a 'zone read' spread could not be further from accurate. We run the zone concepts some ...but not often. We also run wheel route and gap schemes some ...but we are not a 'gap scheme' spread. When I think of a zone-spread scheme I think of Oregon, where every play is predicated off the zone read.

This system is much more complex. It is based out of the 4 vertical concept..but the passing scheme with some variation is a layered west coast scheme. The idea is to spread the defense vertically and horizontally and allow you to run a power running game with only 5 blockers...hence the zone blocking scheme, which in theory will allow you to put more hats at the point of attack than there are defenders.

In order to run an effective west coast passing tree, you need a QB that makes quick decisions, is accurate, and consistent. Think Joe Montana, Peyton Manning. The ball is gone and on target in 2.4 seconds.

Dobbs cannot complete intermediate passes consistently. The defenses do not respect the the passing game. You then get 6 or 7 defenders in the box. 5 O linemen cannot block 6 or 7. The running back and / or running QB cannot make consistent gains when there are more defenders than blockers. They cant get second level, even if the backers fall to a soft zone they have not sold out on the pass and can attack down hill on the run.

To say that this is a QB dependent system is an understatement. What concerns me most of all...is that at this point the coaches must know what Dobbs is and is not capable of . They have to know that Hurd is a pound it between the tackles guy. So why are we hand cuffed to this system that is a fail with the guys we have ? Dobbs , Hurd , Wolfe...would all be excellent I form guys . Dobbs on roll outs , ROPs , real option ..Hurd with enough blockers at the point of attack would dominate. If you dont want to go that far...just add additional blockers , H backs , become a zone read offense to take advantage of Dobbs skill set.

The answers are there , somebody just seems bent on doing it there way

Nice comment. 5 can block 6 and 6 can block 7, when you option the back side D player enough he is neutralized.
Your best point is the west coast passing scheme. In the scheme short passes are used as runs. For success you must complete a high percentage of these. We have too many bad throws, dropped passes, missed blocking assignments. Our bubble screen blocking sux. Yes and tight man coverage kills the short passing game. It helps to hit moving receivers, but it is easier to throw to a spot.

Juan Jennings is the only receiver we have that catches consistently by concentrating on the ball.

I believe a good running back can play well behind any blocking scheme if well executed.

 

[doctorchoice]

I have complained about the offense, but I would like to point out that we could have scored 60 or 70 points on Texas A&M and Florida had we executed.

The problem seems to be lack of depth and development along the offensive line. We appear to have only 2 offensive tackles. When one of them is missing we are awful. Coleman Thomas has also regressed. We hurt when Weisman is hurt too.

Although we do need a more accurate passer, only someone as durable as Dobbs could have survived behind one of the worst pass blocking lines in college football.

We do seem to have a lot of trouble against defenses that are less aggressive and don't blitz. Also, it seems to take a while for our younger players to blossom, particularly at receiver. Defenses also tend to know exactly what we are going to do.