Prison reform needed?

[Rickyvol77]

What‘a the relevance of diversity? What does that even mean?

The populations are smaller, but our per capita incarceration rates are still 400% those of most countries that could be considered peers.

I mean just like healthcare, having a country with 5 million rich white people who got rich from banks and oil is a little hard to compare with a vast country of 340-350 million people of all backgrounds and cultures.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

there is a segment of our population who are vulnerable. lured in by drug usage and then trapped by an addiction. this could be even more pronounced with minors compared to adults. I think there will be unscrupulous people to take advantage of them and work the illegal side of prostitution.
I have no evidence. I would have to take a look at countries where it is legal and see if they have a problem with underage, trafficking, etc.

Yes, I agree with your sentiments, and I don't have evidence of my claim either. We're just gabbing. I would think that some of these unscrupulous adults would go legit with legalization. I'm just struggling to conjur a scenario where legalization would empower underage trafficking. Perhaps age fraud performed at a legal institution? Even so, do you think the net result would still be higher?

I sincerely don't know. Thank you for having a real discussion with me!

 

[RockyTop85]

I mean just like healthcare, having a country with 5 million rich white people who got rich from banks and oil is a little hard to compare with a vast country of 340-350 million people of all backgrounds and cultures.

So wait, you’re saying the US is a melting pot of cultures and backgrounds but Western Europe is not?

How about you pick a country that you feel is an appropriate comparison, explain why, and we can look up and compare their incarceration rate.

 

[McDad]

Yes, I agree with your sentiments, and I don't have evidence of my claim either. We're just gabbing. I would think that some of these unscrupulous adults would go legit with legalization. I'm just struggling to conjur a scenario where legalization would empower underage trafficking. Perhaps age fraud performed at a legal institution? Even so, do you think the net result would still be higher?

I sincerely don't know. Thank you for having a real discussion with me!

We could both make a hypothetical case for legalization increasing or decreasing abusive situations. And without looking at other countries where it is legal to determine if they do or do not have issues, we might be able to use pornography as a guide. It is legal. Accessible to everyone. There are safeguards to keep minors off from exploitation. But it still happens. Unfortunately, there is a small percentage of folks who want it. I think a similar detestable minority would be willing to pay extra to someone trafficking in underage prostitution.

I enjoy talking through things with you as well, Chris.

 

[GoBigOrangeUT]

What do u do with them? And do you mean violent drug dealers or just drug addicts

If there was a victim, there was a crime. Anything outside of that should be legal.

 

[GVF]

I’m interested to see how it plays out in Oregon, but I’m open to the idea.

Eliminating the black market for drugs through decriminalization would eliminate a lot of funding for other criminal enterprises and would remove a considerable amount of drug-adjacent crime.

The devils advocate here is when you decriminalize all drugs, like some states have done with weed, is you remove the black market income from the oppressed and put it legally in the hands of those that have the capital to start a business and run a legal dispensary. We just sent out an $800K quote just for millwork in a new dispensary in Santa Ana. The local corner dealer will lose significant income from the suburbia crowd that come into the downtown areas to buy. Those "respectable" folks will go to the "drug" stores. Crime will increase in other areas to make up lost illegal income.

On the other hand, there will be better control over "bad" drugs. You just gotta decide which battle is hte most sensible to fight.

 

[37L1]

If there was a victim, there was a crime. Anything outside of that should be legal.

 

[37L1]

If there was a victim, there was a crime. Anything outside of that should be legal.

WTF just happened? twice X 2??????

 

[RockyTop85]

The devils advocate here is when you decriminalize all drugs, like some states have done with weed, is you remove the black market income from the oppressed and put it legally in the hands of those that have the capital to start a business and run a legal dispensary. We just sent out an $800K quote just for millwork in a new dispensary in Santa Ana. The local corner dealer will lose significant income from the suburbia crowd that come into the downtown areas to buy. Those "respectable" folks will go to the "drug" stores. Crime will increase in other areas to make up lost illegal income.

On the other hand, there will be better control over "bad" drugs. You just gotta decide which battle is hte most sensible to fight.

Those are possible outcomes, but I don’t think it is necessarily a given that that’s what happens, which is why I’m interested to see how it plays out, first.

 

[GVF]

Those are possible outcomes, but I don’t think it is necessarily a given that that’s what happens, which is why I’m interested to see how it plays out, first.

Yes. It will be interesting. There a more than a few scenarios. One being, the retail outlets will be taxed, and you will still find affordable drugs on the black market, like weapons. The governing of legalized drugs will follow alcohol. With untaxed "stills" still being illegal. Legalization will create an avenue for upstanding societal users to escape the illegal personna of drug use, while the current illegal trade will still carry on. Except, shine ain't exactly cheap. Especially well made stuff. It can go for $80 a quart and up to around $120. Can get a decent whiskey for $20 legally. And how do you govern moving "legal" drugs across the borders and prevent it from still hitting the streets. There is going to be a lot of issues following these legalizations than appear on the surface.

 

[GVF]

Regulating where the legal to sell drugs come from will be a nightmare. One I'm sure they are already hashing out in the states that have legalized recreational weed.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

The devils advocate here is when you decriminalize all drugs, like some states have done with weed, is you remove the black market income from the oppressed and put it legally in the hands of those that have the capital to start a business and run a legal dispensary. We just sent out an $800K quote just for millwork in a new dispensary in Santa Ana. The local corner dealer will lose significant income from the suburbia crowd that come into the downtown areas to buy. Those "respectable" folks will go to the "drug" stores. Crime will increase in other areas to make up lost illegal income.

On the other hand, there will be better control over "bad" drugs. You just gotta decide which battle is hte most sensible to fight.

I would be interested to see the economic effect of legalization on the communities that traffic drugs. I think in Freakanomics they determined the average weed/crack dealer was making roughly minimum wage after they netted out inventory costs and the amount of revenue kicked up the chain. That's a pretty awful wage considering the high risks involved. Will those people turn to honest work or will they simply get into another avenue of illicit activity? Would adding those people to the workforce depress wages? My guess is you will see more gangs move into human/sex trafficking as a way to maintain revenue. Especially Hispanic gangs who already have drug and human links across the border.

 

[37L1]

I would be interested to see the economic effect of legalization on the communities that traffic drugs. I think in Freakanomics they determined the average weed/crack dealer was making roughly minimum wage after they netted out inventory costs and the amount of revenue kicked up the chain. That's a pretty awful wage considering the high risks involved. Will those people turn to honest work or will they simply get into another avenue of illicit activity? Would adding those people to the workforce depress wages? My guess is you will see more gangs move into human/sex trafficking as a way to maintain revenue. Especially Hispanic gangs who already have drug and human links across the border.

We already have a template after Prohibition was repealed.

 

[utvolpj]

I would be interested to see the economic effect of legalization on the communities that traffic drugs. I think in Freakanomics they determined the average weed/crack dealer was making roughly minimum wage after they netted out inventory costs and the amount of revenue kicked up the chain. That's a pretty awful wage considering the high risks involved. Will those people turn to honest work or will they simply get into another avenue of illicit activity? Would adding those people to the workforce depress wages? My guess is you will see more gangs move into human/sex trafficking as a way to maintain revenue. Especially Hispanic gangs who already have drug and human links across the border.

didn't happen with alcohol. Legalize and regulate prostitution as well.

 

[Orangeslice13]

didn't happen with alcohol. Legalize and regulate prostitution as well.

How libertarian of you to think that people should be able to choose what to do with their bodies.

 

[Orangeslice13]

By the way I’m agreeing with you again

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Prostitution should definitely be legal as long as abortion is...seems hard to argue otherwise. Problem there is that the vast majority. 95% or more IMO, are drug addicts as well. So how does the state institutionalize sex trade when the workers need illegal drugs every couple hours to function? Seems impossible.

Mental illness is a big part of problems in the US... last I read 3 out of 4 homeless people had some type of mental problem...probably even higher % use hard drugs instead of just alcohol ... once again, addiction rears its ugly head.

I agree that the war on drugs has been an abject failure. We will never win a "war," against addiction by locking people in prison. Adddicts need help, not handcuffs. Most will eventually die from their vice regardless from what I have seen. Its a mess.

 

[DancingOutlaw]

didn't happen with alcohol. Legalize and regulate prostitution as well.

What didn't happen after Prohibition? The crime syndicates certainly found other avenues to make money. They didn't just fold up when booze was legal again.

I think it's an interesting question. There's a lot of black money that circulates in these markets and doesn't really see the light of day in our economy. People earn wages(ideally) and they take that money and buy drugs. The largest part of the money is exported out of the country. But the money that is paid to dealers and stays with local gangs would evaporate. I imagine in some outfits it's washed through cash heavy businesses that may no longer be viable.

 

[C-south]

there is a segment of our population who are vulnerable. lured in by drug usage and then trapped by an addiction. this could be even more pronounced with minors compared to adults. I think there will be unscrupulous people to take advantage of them and work the illegal side of prostitution.
I have no evidence. I would have to take a look at countries where it is legal and see if they have a problem with underage, trafficking, etc.

I have no problem with drug laws or the war on drugs. There is a direct correlation between drugs and crime and if a dope head gets caught up in the mix then so be it.

 

[Roustabout]

I mean, ok, but it’s not a metric that suffers from an apples to apples to apples comparison. Canada, Western Europe, and Nordic countries (if you don’t consider them Western Europe) all still have far lower (usually around 1/5 or below) rates of incarceration.

That’s probably because they didn’t kidnap millions of people from a different continent and race and oppress them for a couple of hundred years.

 

[Roustabout]

I have no problem with drug laws or the war on drugs. There is a direct correlation between drugs and crime and if a dope head gets caught up in the mix then so be it.

There is something unique about the drug crisis in the US. The Colombian Cartels exist because of drug demand in the US. Think about that for a bit. I think it’s pie in the sky to think legalization will fix it. There is something sick with our country that it has self medicated at an alarming rate since WWII.

Violent crime and drug use go hand in hand.

 

[Roustabout]

I have no problem with drug laws or the war on drugs. There is a direct correlation between drugs and crime and if a dope head gets caught up in the mix then so be it.

The WODs is an abject failure. Had we decriminalized drugs, and legalized pot, back when this started, and focused on treatment, we’d be so much better off.

 

[goldenvol]

I’m interested to see how it plays out in Oregon, but I’m open to the idea.

Eliminating the black market for drugs through decriminalization would eliminate a lot of funding for other criminal enterprises and would remove a considerable amount of drug-adjacent crime.

I see it this way also. Make drugs legal and the financial gain of selling them goes away. It would also take away the excitement of doing something that's not supposed to be done. Still couldn't be operating cars, at work under the influence, or purchase under the age of 18.

We can argue the morality issue about the people addicted to them, but there are legal forms of addictive items now.

The health care system would hate this I imagine.

 

[goldenvol]

I would be interested to see the economic effect of legalization on the communities that traffic drugs. I think in Freakanomics they determined the average weed/crack dealer was making roughly minimum wage after they netted out inventory costs and the amount of revenue kicked up the chain. That's a pretty awful wage considering the high risks involved. Will those people turn to honest work or will they simply get into another avenue of illicit activity? Would adding those people to the workforce depress wages? My guess is you will see more gangs move into human/sex trafficking as a way to maintain revenue. Especially Hispanic gangs who already have drug and human links across the border.

This is the question I always ask myself after I say we should legalize drugs.

 

[happy-go_vol]

I mean, ok, but it’s not a metric that suffers from an apples to apples to apples comparison. Canada, Western Europe, and Nordic countries (if you don’t consider them Western Europe) all still have far lower (usually around 1/5 or below) rates of incarceration.

What are percentages of blacks and Mexicans living in Canada, nordic countries compared to usa?