Practice #7 Updates 8.11

[volfanCLT]

Was there ever an update for the second practice yesterday?

I haven't seen anything yet. Doubt we get much, if any.

 

[you]

Maybe its time for Austin Sanders to emerge

as much as I like him, it seems he's been slowed by nagging injuries since he got here.

 

[1orangews6]

It already has. There was a news report on how the newest generation has no clue how to function in the real world. It said most of them didn't even realize that showing up to work on time was important. These were college kids.

A some of that can also be blamed on their parents. There is a lot going on these day and some parents don't take the time to spend with their kids and let TV babysit their kids. We limit the amount of time our son uses his phone, IPad, or video games. I want him to be a kid for as long as possible we want him to have fun but we also want him know there are times when work needs to be done. We make him do chores around the house and stress importance of doing a good job. We take time to tutor him even during the Summer. I get him to help me with projects around the house and teach him to read a tape measure which a lot of adults can't do. When I work on my Jeep or Trans AM I get him to help me so he can work on his on vehicle when he is old enough to drive. I use the time we work together to talk to him about doing right from wrong and tell him to come to me if he has any questions or problems. I always tell him I have his back and I will always try to be there for him. Parents should mentor their kids.

 

[Cosmo]

A some of that can also be blamed on their parents. There is a lot going on these day and some parents don't take the time to spend with their kids and let TV babysit their kids. We limit the amount of time our son uses his phone, IPad, or video games. I want him to be a kid for as long as possible we want him to have fun but we also want him know there are times when work needs to be done. We make him do chores around the house and stress importance of doing a good job. We take time to tutor him even during the Summer. I get him to help me with projects around the house and teach him to read a tape measure which a lot of adults can't do. When I work on my Jeep or Trans AM I get him to help me so he can work on his on vehicle when he is old enough to drive. I use the time we work together to talk to him about doing right from wrong and tell him to come to me if he has any questions or problems. I always tell him I have his back and I will always try to be there for him. Parents should mentor their kids.

Good stuff right there. Too many kids don't truly know their father. I would also throw in pray with your kids.

 

[tnprogrammer]

An enlistment will correct that issue. I typically show up 20-30 mins early for everything.

My dad was in sales all his life. He stressed showing up 15 minutes early for EVERYTHING. He called it Lombardi time, as I guess that was something that coach Lombardi always preached.

 

[clayton10]

I'm not that bad, thankfully. I just have difficulty starting and keeping convos with random strangers.

Then you sir would fall into that category.

 

[Dr Dread]

Hmm, I'm having trouble finding two-deep rosters, or even starting rosters. Found starters for 2008, but no two-deep. Can't find anything other than a full team roster for 2009.

Anyone know of a source for historic starter / two-deep rosters, covering every year from 2008-2014?

Vlad, the 2008 starters I found are enlightening, all by themselves. The OLine that year had 12 years of previous experience:
-- LT Ramon Foster (Sr - 3 yrs)
-- LG Anthony Parker (RS Sr - 4 yrs)
-- C Josh McNeil (Jr - 2 yrs)
-- RG Jacques McClendon (Jr - 2 yrs)
-- RT Chris Scott (Soph - 1 yr)

Compare that to one potential starting lineup we could have if the 2015 season started today, with 8 years previous experience:
-- LT Kyler Kerbyson (RS Sr - 4 yrs)
-- LG Brett Kendrick (RS Soph - 2 yrs)
-- C Jashon Robertson (Soph - 1 yr)
-- RG Jack Jones (Fr - 0 yr)
-- RT Coleman Thomas (Soph - 1 yr)
[note: put RS Sr Mack Crowder in at C instead, and the 8 years goes up to 11]

If you put Crowder (which is most likely the case) in instead, it goes up to 12 because Robertson would move to RG.

That would be even with the 2008 O-Line.

 

[Souce]

I bet they work on offensive install on closed practice. Me thinks we are about to see the full (Butch) offense this year. It was reported we have a lot of plays on the docket.

 

[Face]

I really hope McNeil has improved on his speed. He was a problem when he got in 1 on 1 coverage last year.

He's almost always in the right spot, and can really lay the wood... But man, I hope he's gained a step of quickness.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Vlad, here's the best I could do with your research question on the OLine.

This chart shows, on the left, the collective # of years experience among the starting OLinemen. Redshirt years count. So the highest possible total would be 20, for five redshirt seniors having 4 years under their belt each. The lowest, of course, would be five true freshmen with 0 experience.

You can see our OLine was senior-centric in 2008 and 2009, then dropped to the sophomore level the next two years. It was back to the bottom edge of junior-centric in Dooley's last year, and has become solidly junior-centered under Butch's tenure. The dashed line for 2015 is what could have been if Marcus Jackson had not gotten injured, had stayed at Guard, and Kendrick had stayed at Tackle.

So the bottom line seems to be just what you hypothesized: our OLine got suddenly much less experienced in the Dark Ages, and has been returning to a more traditional level of experience and maturity under Butch.

Hope this is what you were asking about; I'll include the supporting stuff in a follow-on post.

Go Vols!

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Here's a table of the starters each year over that period, just as background for the previous post.

The 2015 starting lineup is, naturally, not definite. Just a guess based on what we've been seeing the past week or so.

 

[KBVol]

Here's a table of the starters each year over that period, just as background for the previous post.

The 2015 starting lineup is, naturally, not definite. Just a guess based on what we've been seeing the past week or so.

JP just doin' work this week.....

 

[VFL-82-JP]

But Why?

Why did the experience level dip so badly in 2010 and 2011? To answer that question, you have to look back at the 2009 roster.

The 2009 squad included just 2 junior and 2 sophomore linemen, which is thin (normal roster includes 16-18 linemen, spread pretty evenly among the four classes). Of those 4, only one ever worked out as a starter (Jarrod Shaw), meaning the 2010 line was pre-destined to include heavily sophomores (the freshmen of 2009) and freshmen.

But why did 2009's roster have so few juniors and sophomores?

I did a little research. Turns out the 2007 roster included 5 freshmen linemen, who would have grown up to be juniors in 2009. But three of the five were kicked off the squad by Lane Kiffin in the first half of 2009, while they were still sophomores. Darius Myers and Ramone Johnson were both ejected for "primarily academic" reasons ( Darius Myers, Ramone Johnson kicked off team ), while Darris Sawtelle was booted because he "didn't fit the offense." ( Offensive lineman Darris Sawtelle transferring from Tennessee to Grand Valley State | MLive.com ). VN could argue for hours whether these dismissals were smart or dumb, the fault of Fulmer or Kiffin, incompetence or just bad luck. I'm not sure even the people directly involved would be able to come to agreement on that. But the bottom line is, that was the main root cause for the sudden drop in starting OLine talent between the 2009 and 2010 seasons. Kiffin's departure (and the exodus of talent with him) may be viewed as a secondary cause ( The night Lane Kiffin bolted Tennessee, an oral history | FOX Sports ).

Could argue this for hours, of course, and probably be not much the wiser. Just had to scratch my itch of curiosity about the "why" of the 2010 dip.

Cheers!

 

[Kristy*]

JP just doin' work this week.....

Garage - #5, Football Research - #1

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Garage - #5, Football Research - #1

Heh, yeah, haven't gotten to the garage yet. And with football season upon us, it may have to wait till spring.

 

[FïreBall]

Vlad, here's the best I could do with your research question on the OLine...

Hope this is what you were asking about; I'll include the supporting stuff in a follow-on post.

Go Vols!

This is awesome JP, you nailed it! The graph is telling. A seasoned Oline is like gold in the SEC. It's taking some time, but we are trending back.

Thank you for putting this together, I think it will be handy for future reference!

 

[YorkVol]

So, even though I'm not a huge Dooley fan, I might have to admit the lack of depth wasn't all his fault? Crap. Well, he didn't do much to fix it, especially in 2012, but his predecessors didn't help.

Also, can you go back and adjust your calculations based on when the center was forced to switch dominant hands?

 

[butchna]

So, even though I'm not a huge Dooley fan, I might have to admit the lack of depth wasn't all his fault? Crap. Well, he didn't do much to fix it, especially in 2012, but his predecessors didn't help.

Also, can you go back and adjust your calculations based on when the center was forced to switch dominant hands?

Excellent! I supported Dooley until his last season, but this and his transfer policy were early puzzlers. Odd insurmountable problem. :huh:

 

[VFL-82-JP]

...can you go back and adjust your calculations based on when the center was forced to switch dominant hands?

Heh, York, you are just trying to get me in trouble with my wife now. I keep putting off her honey-do list much longer, and I'ma have to watch games this fall from that cluttered garage.

 

[agent|orange]

So, even though I'm not a huge Dooley fan, I might have to admit the lack of depth wasn't all his fault? Crap. Well, he didn't do much to fix it, especially in 2012, but his predecessors didn't help.

Also, can you go back and adjust your calculations based on when the center was forced to switch dominant hands?

2 OL in the underwhelming 2008 class

2 OL in the 2009 class

We had Fulton, Stone and James in the 2010 class but those were all scouted and recruited by Kiffin/crew.

2011 brought Tiny, Jackson, Kerbyson and Crowder. It also brought Clear and Posey who didn't work out but 2011 was a good class for OL overall.

So while depth was a problem, those 3 when you add in Tiny, formed an excellent OL that UT never capitalized on because Dooley completely destroyed every other position group except WR.

So Dooley inherited a young but talented and thin in depth OL core left by Kiffin and then added on in 2011. 2012 Vols were similar in shape to the 2015 Vols. Dooley paid for 2009 being thin in OL and Jones is paying for 2012 being thin (well, nothing) in OL.

Jones has just done a much better job recruiting a team where Dooley, well, didn't.

 

[WillisWG]

I see not signing any OL in 2012 as a mistake.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I see not signing any OL in 2012 as a mistake.

Yeah, I think that's the primary reason the curve dips down from 2014 to 2015 (with Jackson's injury). Any signees in 2012 would be RS Juniors in 2015, and would give Butch more choices in response to Marcus' loss.

Of course, every coin has two sides. More OLinemen on schoarship from 2012 (picked by Dooley) would have meant fewer scholarships available to give out in 2014 and 2015, which is where we got some of the amazing young talent we're all excited about right now.

So yep, we're paying the price for a non-existent 2012 OLine class, but we stand to bounce back strong in the next couple of years.

Just gotta find a way to win a lot in 2015 even so. :good!:

 

[BigOrangeTailgate]

But Why?

Why did the experience level dip so badly in 2010 and 2011? To answer that question, you have to look back at the 2009 roster.

The 2009 squad included just 2 junior and 2 sophomore linemen, which is thin (normal roster includes 16-18 linemen, spread pretty evenly among the four classes). Of those 4, only one ever worked out as a starter (Jarrod Shaw), meaning the 2010 line was pre-destined to include heavily sophomores (the freshmen of 2009) and freshmen.

But why did 2009's roster have so few juniors and sophomores?

I did a little research. Turns out the 2007 roster included 5 freshmen linemen, who would have grown up to be juniors in 2009. But three of the five were kicked off the squad by Lane Kiffin in the first half of 2009, while they were still sophomores. Darius Myers and Ramone Johnson were both ejected for "primarily academic" reasons ( Darius Myers, Ramone Johnson kicked off team ), while Darris Sawtelle was booted because he "didn't fit the offense." ( Offensive lineman Darris Sawtelle transferring from Tennessee to Grand Valley State | MLive.com ). VN could argue for hours whether these dismissals were smart or dumb, the fault of Fulmer or Kiffin, incompetence or just bad luck. I'm not sure even the people directly involved would be able to come to agreement on that. But the bottom line is, that was the main root cause for the sudden drop in starting OLine talent between the 2009 and 2010 seasons. Kiffin's departure (and the exodus of talent with him) may be viewed as a secondary cause ( The night Lane Kiffin bolted Tennessee, an oral history | FOX Sports ).

Could argue this for hours, of course, and probably be not much the wiser. Just had to scratch my itch of curiosity about the "why" of the 2010 dip.

Cheers!

Did you read anything about Josh McNeil? The chart listed him as the starting Center for 2008 as a RS Jr but he's not there in 2009. Did he go to the NFL maybe? The only reason I ask is that I caught the 2006 UT at UGA replay yesterday on ESPN Classic and the announcers pointed out that he was making his first start as a Frosh in that game. He played really well and that gave me a little more hope that some of our young guys could get it done for us this year. Anyway, just wondered what happened with him.

 

[agent|orange]

Did you read anything about Josh McNeil? The chart listed him as the starting Center for 2008 as a RS Jr but he's not there in 2009. Did he go to the NFL maybe? The only reason I ask is that I caught the 2006 UT at UGA replay yesterday on ESPN Classic and the announcers pointed out that he was making his first start as a Frosh in that game. He played really well and that gave me a little more hope that some of our young guys could get it done for us this year. Anyway, just wondered what happened with him.

Had knee surgery due to an injury he suffered in Fall Camp of 2009. It was really more a culmination of multiple injuries and apparently he had almost no cartilage in his knee.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Did you read anything about Josh McNeil? The chart listed him as the starting Center for 2008 as a RS Jr but he's not there in 2009. Did he go to the NFL maybe? The only reason I ask is that I caught the 2006 UT at UGA replay yesterday on ESPN Classic and the announcers pointed out that he was making his first start as a Frosh in that game. He played really well and that gave me a little more hope that some of our young guys could get it done for us this year. Anyway, just wondered what happened with him.

Shades of Marcus Jackson, actually. Knee surgery during fall camp before the 2009 season kept him out almost the entire year. He played in just one game late in the season, no starts.

EDIT: Agent Orange is faster than me. :hi: