Pope: There Is No Hell

#276
#276
mrorange211 said:
"Jesus is either the craziest person to ever live, or exactly who he said he was." CS Lewis.

God saved me 6 months ago with a miracle after 10 years of atheism. This is my first Easter as a believer in a decade and I couldn't be happier. Forever thankful to be given a second chance.
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That's wonderful man. GOD bless you and yours. I got saved on a wed night in 2003 when I didn't have a single family member or friend in that church. Was an agnostic, didn't know and honestly didn't care up until then...He is an amazing Lord, and I dont deserve to even speak of Him. Grace and mercy are eternal. Thanks for sharing your story.
 
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#281
#281
therealUT said:
So, Jesus didn't make wine for already drunk guests? Or, you've just never read the Gospel of John?
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People in Canae are drinking "Oinos" (which could mean wine/beer/grape juice). The party goers seem to prepare enough drink. Yet, the guests drink enough to deplete all "Oinos".
The party leader told patron, that people usually serve the good Oinos first. Once people are "Methuo" (i.e. drunk), they give the bad Oinos. Yet the patron gave the good Oinos last.

The word Methuo means drunk. However, it's miraculously translated as "have drunk freely" or have "drunk satisfiedly" in various bible translation for reasons beyond me. Some bible translations correctly translate that as were drunk.
 
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#283
#283
Orangeslice13 said:
People in Canae are drinking "Oinos" (which could mean wine/beer/grape juice). The party goers seem to prepare enough drink. Yet, the guests drink enough to deplete all "Oinos".
The party leader told patron, that people usually serve the good Oinos first. Once people are "Methuo" (i.e. drunk), they give the bad Oinos. Yet the patron gave the good Oinos last.

The word Methuo means drunk. However, it's miraculously translated as "have drunk freely" or have "drunk satisfiedly" in various bible translation for reasons beyond me. Some bible translations correctly translate that as were drunk.
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Correct, and it's the same Greek word that appears in the Saline Epistles.

Certainly, it is possible that Jesus turned water into grape juice and that the servant is praising him and, in his praise, saying most hosts serve the tasty juice first and then the untasty juice, after the guests are just not thirsty anymore. That's possible, but incredibly odd.

I think it's both possible and plausible to read the story as that the guests were drunk, to the point in which it was now difficult to fully appreciate the newly made beverage, and that this beverage was wine, and that, therefore, Jesus is giving more wine to already inebriated guests to drink.

Now, I could be wrong, but such an interpretation is not unreasonable. That is, a reasonable position can be that the Gospel of John asserts that drunkenness is not a sin (or, at least, that most things we routinely refer to as drunkenness are not sins). As such, one must reconcile that Gospel story with the Sauline admonition to the Galatians. The reconciliation is most easily done by noting that the Galatians would clearly understand the Bachanalian undertones.

Further, the person who takes the drunkenness bit in Saul, literally, without contextualizing it, must, to be consistent, take the carousing/revelry bit just as seriously and literally, without contextualizing it.

So, are the individuals who believe drunkenness is a sin committed to believing that revelry is a sin?

If so, I'd love to hear their definitions of revelry.
 
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#284
#284
therealUT said:
Correct, and it's the same Greek word that appears in the Saline Epistles.

Certainly, it is possible that Jesus turned water into grape juice and that the servant is praising him and, in his praise, saying most hosts serve the tasty juice first and then the untasty juice, after the guests are just not thirsty anymore. That's possible, but incredibly odd.

I think it's both possible and plausible to read the story as that the guests were drunk, to the point in which it was now difficult to fully appreciate the newly made beverage, and that this beverage was wine, and that, therefore, Jesus is giving more wine to already inebriated guests to drink.

Now, I could be wrong, but such an interpretation is not unreasonable. That is, a reasonable position can be that the Gospel of John asserts that drunkenness is not a sin (or, at least, that most things we routinely refer to as drunkenness are not sins). As such, one must reconcile that Gospel story with the Sauline admonition to the Galatians. The reconciliation is most easily done by noting that the Galatians would clearly understand the Bachanalian undertones.

Further, the person who takes the drunkenness bit in Saul, literally, without contextualizing it, must, to be consistent, take the carousing/revelry bit just as seriously and literally, without contextualizing it.

So, are the individuals who believe drunkenness is a sin committed to believing that revelry is a sin?

If so, I'd love to hear their definitions of revelry.
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For me it comes down to the definition of sin. Torah defines sin (or for Christians did before Messiah) and while Paul/Saul is a teacher of Torah he’s generally thought to teach a less strict/ lighter version of sin. And earlier we established that Torah doesn’t call drunkenness sin- it only warns against behavior that can result from loosened inhibitions. I would find it odd for Paul/Saul to add new rules.
 
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#285
#285
Orangeslice13 said:
For me it comes down to the definition of sin. Torah defines sin (or for Christians did before Messiah) and while Paul/Saul is a teacher of Torah he’s generally thought to teach a less strict/ lighter version of sin. And earlier we established that Torah doesn’t call drunkenness sin- it only warns against behavior that can result from loosened inhibitions. I would find it odd for Paul/Saul to add new rules.
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And, this is why I love you, Slice!
 
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#286
#286
Again, drunkards are listed among those outside the gates of Heaven, couldn't be any clearer.
The Bible doesn't instruct us to celebrate Christmas and Easter, it clear on that too. Plain truth.
 
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#287
#287
I’m curious how many of you will admit the sabbath isn’t on Sunday? It’s a basic fact, but I’ve seen more than a few Christians freak out on that one
 
#288
#288
orangeluvr said:
Again, drunkards are listed among those outside the gates of Heaven, couldn't be any clearer.
The Bible doesn't instruct us to celebrate Christmas and Easter, it clear on that too. Plain truth.
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Sure thing. So, about that crazy party in Cana...?

Also, how often must one get drunk in order to be a drunkard?
 
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#289
#289
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:1 (KJV)
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:29-35 (KJV)
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Argue all you please, the word of God will never change! And Saturday is the Sabbath day.
 
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#290
#290
mrorange211 said:
"Jesus is either the craziest person to ever live, or exactly who he said he was." CS Lewis.

God saved me 6 months ago with a miracle after 10 years of atheism. This is my first Easter as a believer in a decade and I couldn't be happier. Forever thankful to be given a second chance.
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Congratulations!!! My only regret is that I wish that I got saved sooner!!! :)
 
#291
#291
BigO95 said:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (KJV)
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19-21 (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Proverbs 20:1 (KJV)
1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.

Proverbs 23:29-35 (KJV)
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?
30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.
31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.
32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.
33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.
34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.
35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Argue all you please, the word of God will never change! And Saturday is the Sabbath day.
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So, the wedding at Cana, right?
 
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#292
#292
therealUT said:
So, the wedding at Cana, right?
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I've already had this argument on here with this subject and I believe that the wine there was non alcoholic as far as I can tell. God pronounces a curse to him that puts strong drink to his neighbors lips so I don't believe for a second that Jesus gave them something to get drunk.:hi:
 
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#293
#293
BigO95 said:
I've already had this argument on here with this subject and I believe that the wine there was non alcoholic as far as I can tell. God pronounces a curse to him that puts strong drink to his neighbors lips so I don't believe for a second that Jesus gave them something to get drunk.:hi:
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So, you don't take that story literally. But, the rest...
 
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#294
#294
therealUT said:
So, you don't take that story literally. But, the rest...
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Again...400+ Christian denominations because of different human interpretations. Yet, some believe their way of believing is the only way of believing.

Jesus also didn’t say ‘This is a symbol of my body or a symbol of my blood’. He said this IS my body and my blood.
 
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#296
#296
Romans 14:21 (KJV)
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

This is all the verse I need to stay away from that hog slop.
 
#297
#297
CABVOL said:
Again...400+ Christian denominations because of different human interpretations. Yet, some believe their way of believing is the only way of believing.

Jesus also didn’t say ‘This is a symbol of my body or a symbol of my blood’. He said this IS my body and my blood.
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Did you know that the lords supper is an ancient betrothal ceremony. It can be found if you know where to look. It also ties together some other Torah fulfillment and explains the concept of believers being the metaphorical bride.
 
#298
#298
therealUT said:
So, you don't take that story literally. But, the rest...
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Isaiah 65:8 (KJV)
8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

I believe this story was literal and Jesus literally made this new wine. :hi: No alcohol
 
#299
#299
BigO95 said:
Romans 14:21 (KJV)
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

This is all the verse I need to stay away from that hog slop.
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Are you a vegan?
 
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#300
#300
BigO95 said:
Isaiah 65:8 (KJV)
8 Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.

I believe this story was literal and Jesus literally made this new wine. :hi: No alcohol
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Why is this new wine non alcoholic?
 
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