Pope says evolution is a real thing

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Difficult, no. Either dogma matters or it doesn't. Your non-answer answer about faith and not dogma means that I'll take you to be in agreement with my previous statement then.

Let me unpack this for you, will Anders Breivik be roaming the streets of heaven or won't he? He was full of faith.

fwiw... I rarely agree with anything you post, but that doesn't bother me nor should it bother you. The answer I gave is only a "non-answer" to you because you fail to understand it where others do.

Regarding Breivik, it doesn't sound to me like he had much faith at all...

Breivik stated that "myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God."

 

[LouderVol]

Thanks for pointing it out, but I didn't boldface/highlight that, in this case -- not sure why that happened.

In looking at the wording, if "why not millions of years," then why not "why not 1 day." There are those who insist on millions of years, and the Scriptures that insist on 1 day/on the 6th day. Anyway.

that was me bolding certain points to high light them for reference :hi:

the reason it isn't 1 day is because we established that the use of a 'day' started before there were days. and then gramps or someone else pointed out the verse on how time for us isn't the same as time for God.

 

[LouderVol]

Re: "2 Peter 3:8 : But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Yes, and also Psalm 90:4. I see what you're saying. Peter was saying the end will come when we least expect it/like a thief "in the night," which proves Peter knew exactly what "a day" was and is.

But the context of that passage (2 Pt 3:9) is God's "patience" towards man's "repentance" -- God will be patient with mankind's stubbornness for a 1000 years just as much as he will for 1 day, and in due time He will put an end to this world.

Respectfully, if you're going to use that rule, it means 1 day = thousand years, which rules out "millions." But anyway, the context is not saying that a day is not a day.

as far as the day and night thing and Peter using the difference, in that context 'a day' isn't 24 hours either. its more like 16 hours depending on the season. So in the creation story was this a summer day or a winter day?

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

Common Gramps. You are better than this.

Everyone knows the talking point. We are trying to dig deeper here. The Christian talking point (which you posted) doesn't align with the actions of Christians. If that's all that mattered, Christians would only have a couple verses of scripture and one sect/theology. Additionally, there wouldn't be questions of what counts as scripture (Book of Mormon, Gospel of Mary, Gospel of Peter, Gospel of Judas, etc.), interpretation of scripture, whether alcohol is ok, universalism vs annihilationism vs traditional views, gay marriage, gay priests, female preachers, the sex lives of preachers, how to mesh OT with NT (aka grace vs law), whether the miracles happened and if they are important if they they didn't, sola fide vs deeds, wealth vs charity, role of Satan, role of evolution, creation, etc.

In short, the actions of Christians do not support the talking points of Christians. The talking point says none of this matters outside a couple essential passages of the Bible while their actions, associations, books, debates, and social media indicate otherwise.

There is something fundamental in the psyche of a vast majority of hardcore Christians that drives hardcore Christians to believe Christianity encompasses much more than a few select passages of the New Testament.

C'mon PKT... you are also better than this. There is so much WRONG in your description above of Christianity that its hard to determine where to start.

Point 1... the message of Jesus and Christianity is primarily about salvation, grace, faith, and love. Religion, which you keep referencing, is man-made and I don't think anyone is in disagreement that it has issues. So what counts as scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. will continue to be an issue with "men".

Point 2... the actions (and posts) of Christians (Vol fans) do not support the talking points of Christians (of what it means to be a fan). A real shocker here... people actually do things that may be contradictory to what they say. Color me surprised! That's a real revelation I was not aware of.

Point 3... if you took the time to truly understand the Bible you would know that there is absolutely meaning and value to other parts of the Bible beyond "a couple essential passages". The message of salvation is clear, but that doesn't in anyway devalue other messages and instruction from God's word... it's just the most important message.

 

[PKT_VOL]

C'mon PKT... you are also better than this. There is so much WRONG in your description above of Christianity that its hard to determine where to start.

Point 1... the message of Jesus and Christianity is primarily about salvation, grace, faith, and love. Religion, which you keep referencing, is man-made and I don't think anyone is in disagreement that it has issues. So what counts as scripture, interpretation of scripture, etc. will continue to be an issue with "men".

Point 2... the actions (and posts) of Christians (Vol fans) do not support the talking points of Christians (of what it means to be a fan). A real shocker here... people actually do things that may be contradictory to what they say. Color me surprised! That's a real revelation I was not aware of.

Point 3... if you took the time to truly understand the Bible you would know that there is absolutely meaning and value to other parts of the Bible beyond "a couple essential passages". The message of salvation is clear, but that doesn't in anyway devalue other messages and instruction from God's word... it's just the most important message.

You don't seem to understand the disconnect we are talking about.

Those who believe everyone who merely believes in Christ is going to heaven and that is all that matters, shouldn't be concerned with anything else. It would be utterly inconsequential. It would be like the local Christian shelter debating whether to paint the walls blue or red.

However, there are many who proclaim the above, yet act in a manner that would indicate that such is not all that matters (and in the context of other things, they can fall out of what it takes to truly believe). Again, the talking point is laced with loaded words.

Then, you have those Christians who believe most other "Christians" are not going to make it because their actions/faith is either wrong or not genuine.

 

[LouderVol]

You don't seem to understand the disconnect we are talking about.

Those who believe everyone who merely believes in Christ is going to heaven and that is all that matters, shouldn't be concerned with anything else. It would be utterly consequential. It would be like the local Christian shelter debating whether to paint the walls blue or red.

However, there are many who proclaim the above, yet act in a manner that would indicate that such is not all that matters (and in the context of other things, they can fall out of what it takes to truly believe). Again, the talking point is laced with loaded words.

Then, you have those Christians who believe most other "Christians" are not going to make it because their actions/faith is either wrong or not genuine.

when/if we make it to heaven there isn't going to be a quiz, it will be a review of how we lived our life.

 

[PKT_VOL]

when/if we make it to heaven there isn't going to be a quiz, it will be a review of how we lived our life.

There you go. Keep going that direction and you will see where the disconnect is. What entails a life/faith worth entering heaven? The deeper you go with this question, the more fractions you are going to find within Christianity, and the further away from the standard talking point one becomes (hence the disconnect).

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

You don't seem to understand the disconnect we are talking about.

Those who believe everyone who merely believes in Christ is going to heaven and that is all that matters, shouldn't be concerned with anything else. It would be utterly inconsequential. It would be like the local Christian shelter debating whether to paint the walls blue or red.

However, there are many who proclaim the above, yet act in a manner that would indicate that such is not all that matters (and in the context of other things, they can fall out of what it takes to truly believe). Again, the talking point is laced with loaded words.

Then, you have those Christians who believe most other "Christians" are not going to make it because their actions/faith is either wrong or not genuine.

Yes I do, but there is no disconnect. And as I stated previously, you should read and learn what it says in the Bible before making such a definitive (and incorrect) statement. The Bible includes numerous verses referencing rewards and blessings, both on earth and in heaven, based on what we believe... how we live our lives... how we treat others... etc.

 

[Septic]

when/if we make it to heaven there isn't going to be a quiz, it will be a review of how we lived our life.

As a humanist, I'm in good shape then.

 

[LouderVol]

There you go. Keep going that direction and you will see where the disconnect is. What entails a life/faith worth entering heaven? The deeper you go with this question, the more fractions you are going to find within Christianity, and the further away from the standard talking point one becomes (hence the disconnect).

All based on what we, people, have done, nothing to do with actual faith.

None of the core tenants can be argued over between religions. what can be argued is what are the core tenants. we like to blow the differences way out of proportion so that we can identify on one side or the other. as you saw with the debate between myself and a few others we were having earlier, we ended amicably, and largely agreeing with each other on what matters and glad we had the conversation/study. and besides we were arguing about what we on earth do, not what gets us into heaven.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Yes I do, but there is no disconnect. And as I stated previously, you should read and learn what it says in the Bible before making such a definitive (and incorrect) statement. The Bible includes numerous verses referencing rewards and blessings, both on earth and in heaven, based on what we believe... how we live our lives... how we treat others... etc.

So now I haven't read the Bible. Great retort. Billions of people have the read the Bible with various interpretations. I'm currently working my way through the Koran. I can assure you that I have a different interpretation than most thus far in my reading. Reading =/= agreeing. It's actually the whole point of this discussion which tells me you still don't get the point being made.

What constitutes and encompasses true "belief", true "faith", or a life worth of heaven is where the fractions come into play. Merely stating that those who believe go to heaven is meaningless if everyone is working off different ideas of what that entails.

 

[MercyPercy]

when/if we make it to heaven there isn't going to be a quiz, it will be a review of how we lived our life.

Why will there be a review? If you believe in Jesus as your lord and Savior you're in, right?

Why go through the trouble of examining the good and bad things we have done if it doesn't matter? Or are you suggesting how we live our life would in fact weigh on our salvation?

I expect some more disagreement among Christians about this. Because some on here have argued up and down this forum advocating one or the other. So what is it, guys? Do you get sent to hell even though you lived a relatively good, charitable life, but weren't a Christian? Or is your god less archaic? Another example of the fundamentalist view vs. the progressive Christians.

 

[PKT_VOL]

All based on what we, people, have done, nothing to do with actual faith.

None of the core tenants can be argued over between religions. what can be argued is what are the core tenants. we like to blow the differences way out of proportion so that we can identify on one side or the other. as you saw with the debate between myself and a few others we were having earlier, we ended amicably, and largely agreeing with each other on what matters and glad we had the conversation/study. and besides we were arguing about what we on earth do, not what gets us into heaven.

Faith doesn't inspire acts? What happened to faith without works is dead faith?

 

[marcusluvsvols]

Why will there be a review? If you believe in Jesus as your lord and Savior you're in, right?

Why go through the trouble of examining the good and bad things we have done if it doesn't matter? Or are you suggesting how we live our life would in fact weigh on our salvation?

I expect some more disagreement among Christians about this. Because some on here have argued up and down this forum advocating one or the other. So what is it, guys? Do you get sent to hell even though you lived a relatively good, charitable life, but weren't a Christian? Or is your god less archaic? Another example of the fundamentalist view vs. the progressive Christians.

Salvation is achieved the moment a person accepts Christ as their personal savior based on their faith in his death burial and resurrection. We will all stand before the judgment seat and answer for whether or not this has occurred in our lives. By grace..through faith..a man is saved. Not by any ofbhis actions, lest any man should boast.
How we have lived our lives will determine how many "crowns" or rewards we receive in Heaven. There is no punishment in heaven...just varying levels of rewards received from God himself.This is fair and just. A man like Steven who was stoned to death for his faith should receive more rewards than a man who lived a sinful life but truly had a deathbed conversion and accepted Christ shortly before death.

 

[MercyPercy]

Salvation is achieved the moment a person accepts Christ as their personal savior based on their faith in his death burial and resurrection. We will all stand before the judgment seat and answer for whether or not this has occurred in our lives. By grace..through faith..a man is saved. Not by any ofbhis actions, lest any man should boast.
How we have lived our lives will determine how many "crowns" or rewards we receive in Heaven. There is no punishment in heaven...just varying levels of rewards received from God himself.This is fair and just. A man like Steven who was stoned to death for his faith should receive more rewards than a man who lived a sinful life but truly had a deathbed conversion and accepted Christ shortly before death.

Well this is certainly the first time I've heard of this caste system in heaven. Are there heavenly slums for the people who went to church about twice a year, and next to them some heavenly palaces for Steven and mother Theresa?

 

[hog88]

Salvation is achieved the moment a person accepts Christ as their personal savior based on their faith in his death burial and resurrection. We will all stand before the judgment seat and answer for whether or not this has occurred in our lives. By grace..through faith..a man is saved. Not by any ofbhis actions, lest any man should boast.
How we have lived our lives will determine how many "crowns" or rewards we receive in Heaven. There is no punishment in heaven...just varying levels of rewards received from God himself.This is fair and just. A man like Steven who was stoned to death for his faith should receive more rewards than a man who lived a sinful life but truly had a deathbed conversion and accepted Christ shortly before death.

:ermm:

So the haves and the have not's extend to heaven also?

 

[marcusluvsvols]

:ermm:

So the haves and the have not's extend to heaven also?

No..because there is no sadness in Heaven so there cannot be havenots.The bjble clearly states that man will be given "crowns" based kn our actions here. I'm not sure what they are..may be actual crowns.If they are,and i receive 1 for some reason then i hope to lay it at the feet of Christ who died for me..a vile sinner.

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

So now I haven't read the Bible. Great retort. Billions of people have the read the Bible with various interpretations. I'm currently working my way through the Koran. I can assure you that I have a different interpretation than most thus far in my reading. Reading =/= agreeing. It's actually the whole point of this discussion which tells me you still don't get the point being made.

What constitutes and encompasses true "belief", true "faith", or a life worth of heaven is where the fractions come into play. Merely stating that those who believe go to heaven is meaningless if everyone is working off different ideas of what that entails.

Also a great retort... falsify my statement. I did not claim in anyway that you've never read the Bible. I said that you should "read and learn what it says in the Bible". Typical of some, though I expect more from you, to resort to twisting someone's words rather than just supporting your position.

You said the following in a prior post which is what started this discussion.

You don't seem to understand the disconnect we are talking about. Those who believe everyone who merely believes in Christ is going to heaven and that is all that matters, shouldn't be concerned with anything else. It would be utterly inconsequential.

Who is it you are quoting or referring to in your statement above when you say "Those who believe..."? I ask because I don't recall any post making that statement. Anyone who understands the Bible knows that going to heaven is not "all that matters" and therefore "shouldn't be concerned with anything else". I will go to heaven because of my acceptance of God's gift of salvation and belief that Jesus is my lord and savior. However, I am certainly concerned about my own actions while hear on earth, about my children and their beliefs and actions while hear on earth, among many other things.

Perhaps the best option is that given your knowledge of the Bible, and the point we are discussing as bolded above, please share with me where in the Bible this disconnect exists that you are referring to. I am genuinely interested.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Salvation is achieved the moment a person accepts Christ as their personal savior based on their faith in his death burial and resurrection. We will all stand before the judgment seat and answer for whether or not this has occurred in our lives. By grace..through faith..a man is saved. Not by any ofbhis actions, lest any man should boast.
How we have lived our lives will determine how many "crowns" or rewards we receive in Heaven. There is no punishment in heaven...just varying levels of rewards received from God himself.This is fair and just. A man like Steven who was stoned to death for his faith should receive more rewards than a man who lived a sinful life but truly had a deathbed conversion and accepted Christ shortly before death.

This is what I love about VolNation.

Learn something new everyday.

 

[hog88]

No..because there is no sadness in Heaven so there cannot be havenots.The bjble clearly states that man will be given "crowns" based kn our actions here. I'm not sure what they are..may be actual crowns.If they are,and i receive 1 for some reason then i hope to lay it at the feet of Christ who died for me..a vile sinner.

If you have 1 more crown than me then you have more than me.

I get what you're saying but I was under the impression we were all to be equal once we are let in the pearly gates.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

If you have 1 more crown than me then you have more than me.

I get what you're saying but I was under the impression we were all to be equal once we are let in the pearly gates.

I think we are all equal hog. I really do. It may be that the crowns mentioned in the bible are just "attaboys" from Christ himself. I nnow that we must all be equal though..or at least believe that we all are...because if not there would be jealousy and envy. That would not be happiness.

On a side note i believe that those kn Heaven have no knowledge of what goes on here on earth. If my grandparents who have passed on cojld have seen all the sin and terrible behavior i had as a teen...they would be miserable. The bible says there is no misery in heaven so that would be impossible. JMO TIFWIW

 

[IBlvNTmWrk]

This is what I love about VolNation.

Learn something new everyday.

Great... then you readily admit that you don't know what it says in the Bible as I stated previously.

If you have 1 more crown than me then you have more than me.

I get what you're saying but I was under the impression we were all to be equal once we are let in the pearly gates.

Every fan sitting in Neyland Stadium watching the Vols play is also equal, but some have better seats than others. :hi:

 

[hog88]

Great... then you readily admit that you don't know what it says in the Bible as I stated previously.



Every fan sitting in Neyland Stadium watching the Vols play is also equal, but some have better seats than others. :hi:

If that's the case in heaven then there is a hierarchy and not everyone is equal. Thus there would be jealousy and animosity. Unless we lose all human emotion and feeling once there.

 

[PKT_VOL]

Also a great retort... falsify my statement. I did not claim in anyway that you've never read the Bible. I said that you should "read and learn what it says in the Bible". Typical of some, though I expect more from you, to resort to twisting someone's words rather than just supporting your position.

Yes, when you read the Bible, you learn what it in the Bible. There are countless people who have spent their whole lives studying the Bible and walk away with very different ideas of what it all means, what counts (both internal and external), what context each passage is in, and how to mesh various passages together.

This idea that reading or the learning the Bible will lead to either enlightenment or agreement with others on their view is ridiculous. We are here to discuss what is in the Bible, the concepts of the Bible and the Christian faith, and exchange interpretations from our own reading/studying of such texts. Same with other scared texts around the world. It was a mind-numbingly dumb comment.

You said the following in a prior post which is what started this discussion.

Who is it you are quoting or referring to in your statement above when you say "Those who believe..."? I ask because I don't recall any post making that statement. Anyone who understands the Bible knows that going to heaven is not "all that matters" and therefore "shouldn't be concerned with anything else". I will go to heaven because of my acceptance of God's gift of salvation and belief that Jesus is my lord and savior. However, I am certainly concerned about my own actions while hear on earth, about my children and their beliefs and actions while hear on earth, among many other things.

Perhaps the best option is that given your knowledge of the Bible, and the point we are discussing as bolded above, please share with me where in the Bible this disconnect exists that you are referring to. I am genuinely interested.

It was a general comment. I was summing up what many Christians believe. I tend to put these Christians in what I refer to as the "passive" or "social" Christian category. They tend to be younger (my age), show up Sunday (mostly for the social part), and concentrate on a couple NT passages to cover themselves in their version of Pascal's wager.

However, such a view was put forth by Gramps in the context of the differences between the various sects. I'm sure if prodded more, he would not uphold the implications of this view personally due to what he has posted in the past (if I remember he is Baptist and doesn't drink). The subtle point being that there are serious reasons for the existence of different sects. The talking point (which is what I believe he was espousing) doesn't back up the actions of the Christian community in my opinion.

The "hardcore" Christians, as opposed to the "social" or "passive" Christians, tend to act, think, say, write books, take to the streets, use social media, etc. that there is more to "faith", "believing", and getting to heaven than merely proclaiming that Jesus rose from the dead. It is a body of work, it is faith in action, and faith in other things/passages outside of a couple select passages that encompass a path to heaven. Additionally, some such Christians tend to think other "Christians" are mistaken if they believe they are going to heaven.

 

[marcusluvsvols]

If that's the case in heaven then there is a hierarchy and not everyone is equal. Thus there would be jealousy and animosity. Unless we lose all human emotion and feeling once there.

The bible does say that we lose our earthly bodies and have glorified ones...so we may very well lose our human qualities. Seems like we would have to just to keep from ruining other peoples experience while there...