Play calling was not the issue in lack of WR production against UF

[jakez4ut]

I agree with a lot of this Jake. But I go back to the reality that if the defense does its job we win. And as you stated (correctly) the Oline struggles with pass protection. We should've won the game but we didn't lose do to lack of offense.

i know.

 

[orangeluvr]

Good grief. We are 2-2 and our leading WR is a true freshman who had no Spring or Fall practice and got all his yards in one game. Offense is doing just great though...

Should be 4-0 ! :yes:

 

[VolsSA]

Butch and company get way to conservative trying to save a win imo.

 

[HardKnoxVol]

This will probably be a lost cause but let's see if we can keep the discussion on topic for at least a few pages. In-game coaching decisions aside, play calling was actually a bright spot and not the reason for lack of WR production. Here's my take after listening to comments, coaches, players and going back to watch the game (as much as it pained me):

1) First and foremost, NOBODY had an issue with our play calling and gameplan until 4 minutes to go in the 4th. There's no way anyone can honestly say that. It was good enough to give us a 2 score lead with 10 min to go.

2) We owned the ground game and even with that being said we called over 25 passing plays. The reason they didn't produce was mainly OL. UF pass rush got in quick-3 sacks plenty of hurries. That caused Dobbs to either get rid of it quickly, scramble for his life, or abandon the play and run (sometimes a little too soon).

3) We actually threw the ball twice inside the red zone in the 4th with a lead: 10 yard curl completed to WR and the 50/50 ball caught by Von for a TD called back on a penalty. Not bad for aggressive play calling. Hurd eventually ran for the TD.

4) Kerbyson was right when referring to the 16 play 70+ yard drive when he stated we ran the ball 88% of that drive and they couldn't stop it...why would you stray from that.

5) 5 Scoring Drives against a very good D....no need to expand on that

In any case, play calling in that game was, in reality, excellent. It was very successful in fact. Bottom line: if I told you that this was the formula to put you up 2 scores mid way through the 4th in the Swamp to break the streak, why would you argue that considering how successful we were against a very solid D?

Uhh I was pretty concerned all game when Dobbs would be the only one running. We had guys getting open all day long, yet he kept deciding to tuck it and risk injury. Eventually, UF stuffed Dobbs a few times towards the end of the game (especially on a critical third down). Throughout the entire game, I was yelling for us to throw to even the ball boy. Passing game was non-existent, and that's a problem. Can't be one dimensional against a stout defensive team like Florida.

 

[VolFootballIsLife]

OP - you lost most knowledgeable football observers with your point #1. Just because the running game had been semi successful, it did not mean they should not have mixed in more passing to balance it out. A couple more explosive plays that led to TD's and there would be no post game armchair quarterbacking needed and Butch would have been held in higher regard. Please don't try to frame a discussion before it starts.

Wow...I'll try to do this without being as disrespectful as you were although it's tempting because this is easy:

"Semi-successful" run game comment leaves me speechless.

Most "knowledgeable" football observers actually do stick with the run when it's wirking. That's football 101.

We did mix in pass plays. But OC fault Dobbs tucked and ran, got sacked it hurried, didn't read progressions. 25+ passing plays. That's in my OP and on film.

I'm not even sure what your last statement means. I'd also appreciate if you would please not tell me how to post threads. My 5 year old niece would say "You're not the boss of me!":salute:

By the way, insinuating I'm not knowledgeable and telling me how to frame discussions is really not your place. You have no idea what my background is.

 

[KBVol]

Just heard Brent Hubbs say that the WRs were TARGETED 6 times on Saturday vs Florida......6. TIMES. If that's not playcalling I don't know what is.

We all see what we all see. There's a very clear reason why a single true freshman WR at Texas A&M has more receiving yards and touchdowns than Tennessee's top SEVEN WRs through the first 4 weeks.

The reason is because TAM values his playmaking abilities and its reflected in their playcalling. To this point, Jones clearly does not value our passing game, AT ALL, and as such does not develop a gameplan that prioritizes the "throw game" as he calls it. And the evidence of that, again, is the 6 WR targets for the entire game vs Florida.

 

[VolFootballIsLife]

Uhh I was pretty concerned all game when Dobbs would be the only one running. We had guys getting open all day long, yet he kept deciding to tuck it and risk injury. Eventually, UF stuffed Dobbs a few times towards the end of the game (especially on a critical third down). Throughout the entire game, I was yelling for us to throw to even the ball boy. Passing game was non-existent, and that's a problem. Can't be one dimensional against a stout defensive team like Florida.

Agree. Point is that is wasn't play calling. It was Dobbs and OL. Over 25+ actual pass plays were called. There has to be a reason he didn't have 25 attempts.

 

[thevolman64]

This will probably be a lost cause but let's see if we can keep the discussion on topic for at least a few pages. In-game coaching decisions aside, play calling was actually a bright spot and not the reason for lack of WR production. Here's my take after listening to comments, coaches, players and going back to watch the game (as much as it pained me):

1) First and foremost, NOBODY had an issue with our play calling and gameplan until 4 minutes to go in the 4th. There's no way anyone can honestly say that. It was good enough to give us a 2 score lead with 10 min to go.

2) We owned the ground game and even with that being said we called over 25 passing plays. The reason they didn't produce was mainly OL. UF pass rush got in quick-3 sacks plenty of hurries. That caused Dobbs to either get rid of it quickly, scramble for his life, or abandon the play and run (sometimes a little too soon).

3) We actually threw the ball twice inside the red zone in the 4th with a lead: 10 yard curl completed to WR and the 50/50 ball caught by Von for a TD called back on a penalty. Not bad for aggressive play calling. Hurd eventually ran for the TD.

4) Kerbyson was right when referring to the 16 play 70+ yard drive when he stated we ran the ball 88% of that drive and they couldn't stop it...why would you stray from that.

5) 5 Scoring Drives against a very good D....no need to expand on that

In any case, play calling in that game was, in reality, excellent. It was very successful in fact. Bottom line: if I told you that this was the formula to put you up 2 scores mid way through the 4th in the Swamp to break the streak, why would you argue that considering how successful we were against a very solid D?

You can't possibly be serious, can you

 

[IluvdoubleD's]

First. Dobbs is a fantastic tough leader who's smart. But he isn't very good with the touch pass and we all saw that last year from his first games.

Second. These recievers have had quite a few very valuable productive plays come thier way and dropped the ball. They are playing timid and almost like they are afraid to get injured or reinjured. These 4-5 stars have proven themselves fairly unreliable in the clutch when they know they are going to get hit.

Solution. Make the pitch and catch a priority focus in practices and get these recievers in space downfield where they are more confident.

Just my 2

 

[VolFootballIsLife]

You can't possibly be serious, can you

Of course I am. Please explain. I hoped for more content on your Virgin post. There are plenty of reasons to disagree. It's part of a discussion. Most would find a lot of good points made not to say you have to agree. So not sure why it's not serious.

 

[FREAKIN ORANGE]

Well , some of you would have complained if we would have gotten away from what was working in the 1st half, which was our running game. If Debord would have come out after the half and had Dobbs throwing it all over the field unsuccessfully, some would have been p!ssing and moaning about moving away from what was working. I understand we need a balanced offense, but the play calling wasn't the issue till the last couple of minutes. The game planning was working in both games ! Combine poor clock mgmt at the end , along with poor defensive strategy on the final drive , and it was 4 minutes of suck. Those things are fixable . This is the same team that was WINNING both games till the final few minutes . I still believe in our Vols , as bad as those last few minutes hurt . Fahring Butch right now would be incredibly stupid. Let's give it a few more games till we drag out the pitchforks. All this negativity is counterproductive . I know , I know ..just win . I get it

 

[VolFootballIsLife]

Well you can analyze this to death but the fact is we have had 2 identical collapses against teams we should have defeated. There is no way that is a coincidence.

Very true and undeniable. Not defending the collapse and coaching moves that are responsible for that. Just trying to get a point across that in the UF game only, Playcalling was actually efficient and 25+ pass plays were called. Has to be a reason they aren't successful and tried to highlight what I saw on the tape.

But your point is probably the single most point of concern with this team.

 

[CMcEver]

Yeah, ok. we owned them? Lol. That team was struggling badly and learned how to win in that game. That coach will win more games than butch in his first year with butch in his 3rd. But hey, keep backing our coach with his poor offensive scheme and blame the players. Kudos, except quit blaming the players. I haven't ever seen players play this hard to win for such a losing coach. Maybe they are playing for themselves.

Florida's cupboards are not empty, they never have been. Just like in our case, if Jones gets canned this year, the coach next year will more than likely win more games than him simply because he has got the talent level back, but that talent is mostly underclassmen.

 

[ShooterVFL]

We've played 4 games this year. You'll have to help me as to which ones mattered. And again, only debating play calling in UF game. As to your last point, players make plays to extend drives for every team, every week, in every game. Ours made a few last week. As to 25 yards passing at halftime, I would just say we took a big lead into the half. We're you unhappy about that?

I for one was unhappy going in to the half. Anyone that knows anything about football knows that one dementional football does not win games. Period. Against any coaching staff worth their salt, they will eventually make adjustments. I agree with using what works UNTIL they stop it or show a different look but then you have to adjust. We don't. Football is also about rhythm, timing, and confidence. On that note I can see why they don't change at the end of the game. You can't be a one trick pony for three and a half quarters and then say, ok qb, go make it happen. Teams that win and win consistently have great balance for 4 quarters. This is not some great secret, it's just something our staff obviously doesn't agree with because they have to understand it as even a novice football fan would.

 

[VOLywood]

I disagree with the OP...play calling was the issue with the passing game and it seems to be the issue every single game CBJ coaches for us.

Consider this:

The Vols have had two 100-yard receivers in the 29 games since Butch Jones took over as coach: North had 103 against South Carolina in 2013, and Howard had 109 against the Gamecocks last season. With multiple NFL-caliber receivers, the Vols had 20 the three previous seasons.

Quote taken from this article - Times Free Press - UT Vols plan to get 'frustrated' receiving corps more involved

 

[TooLegit2Quit]

Should ask if any of our skill position players if they like the playcalling. It took two trick plays to get in to the position we were in. Beyond that it was the same crap we saw in the OU game and the Florida game last year. Butch jones is incapable of adapting his scheme/playcalling to personnel and h he's more than demonstrated that he'sincapable of making in-game adjustments. He had Worley run the read option last year. When Hurd finally gets hurt from breaking 5 tackles a play just to get back to the LOS on the same slow developing play while the defense loads the box everytime, we'll see how good the run game is. Either Butch's aim is to out-talent people or I suppose that's all he's capable of. Regardless, absolutely laughable people are going to sit here and blame Dobbs/receivers/OL for our lack of a passing game. Your QB was your leading receiver and the majority of your receivers had zero targets per usual, the targets we do see are lateral passes.

 

[TGVol]

254 yards rushing against a team that had only averaged giving up 50/game is semi successful?

If in addition to that you only have 83 yards passing than it's not even semi successful because it means the offense is one dimensional and good DC's will make adjustments to shut it down during critical later stages of the game - as evidenced in both loses this year.

 

[ReaderVol]

I disagree with the OP...play calling was the issue with the passing game and it seems to be the issue every single game CBJ coaches for us.

Consider this:


Quote taken from this article - Times Free Press - UT Vols plan to get 'frustrated' receiving corps more involved

How many passes did you expect UT to throw? And did you think we'd even score 27? Most didn't have UT getting anywhere near 27. When you can run you run. The OLINE killed us period. You can't throw the ball from your back.
It's simple, the biggest reason we lost is because of our defensive strategy in the 4th.

 

[ReaderVol]

If in addition to that you only have 83 yards passing than it's not even semi successful because it means the offense is one dimensional and good DC's will make adjustments to shut it down during critical later stages of the game - as evidenced in both loses this year.

Can you please (no sarcasm serious question) explain how a QB, any QB can pass to WR when they don't even have time for the WR to run their routes? That's what has happened.

 

[Voldemonium]

My main criticism is that in year 3 this still doesn't remotely resemble a balanced offense. Is it unreasonable to expect an offense that is 75-80% on it's way to being the finished article? In year 3? Our longest pass play of the year was thrown Saturday by Jennings on a trick play!

The last two years with Worley at the helm every Vol fan with a brain could see that he was a poor fit for our offense but Butch couldn't or wouldn't admit it. The phrase don't piss on my head and tell me it's raining comes to mind. No DC in his right mind respected Worley as a threat to run the ball but we persisted with the delayed hand-offs with the RB keeping it 95% of the time right up until Worley's injury. It was painful to watch.

Flash forward one year and we're in almost the exact opposite situation. No DC worth his salt respects our "throw game" and why should they? There are regions of the field we've demonstrated that we will absolutely not throw the ball. Analytics have proven that we will not throw to go routes along the sideline, seams, or slants.

In saying all of that, given the rushing numbers generated this weekend, I can understand why some folks might think that offensive play-calling had no effect in the outcome of the UF game but I think that's incorrect. We managed a 13pt lead basically on the back of brute force running. With even a mediocre passing game we could've had over 300yds of rushing by forcing UF to respect the pass. At 4min left on the clock in the 4th quarter, UF knew exactly what was coming and they sold out to stop it without any fear of adverse consequence. That is the definition of poor offensive play-calling.

On a separate but related note, I'd suggest that the touchdown that Jalen Hurd scored to put us up 26-14 was also a poor play call (even though it resulted in a TD). I was in Gainsville and just before the play I told the UF fan next to me that I bet we run the ball from the 10yrd line and play for the field goal and that's exactly what happend. I think the UT coaching staff was completely caught off guard when Jalen powered it in on an amazing run. I don't even think they contemplated the implications of going for 2. Every Vol fan in my vicinity was screaming for him to go for 2. :victory:

We can talk about the Jancek 4th down mustang package in another thread b/c it most certainly cost us the UF and OU games.

 

[Peytons forehead]

This will probably be a lost cause but let's see if we can keep the discussion on topic for at least a few pages. In-game coaching decisions aside, play calling was actually a bright spot and not the reason for lack of WR production. Here's my take after listening to comments, coaches, players and going back to watch the game (as much as it pained me):

1) First and foremost, NOBODY had an issue with our play calling and gameplan until 4 minutes to go in the 4th. There's no way anyone can honestly say that. It was good enough to give us a 2 score lead with 10 min to go.

2) We owned the ground game and even with that being said we called over 25 passing plays. The reason they didn't produce was mainly OL. UF pass rush got in quick-3 sacks plenty of hurries. That caused Dobbs to either get rid of it quickly, scramble for his life, or abandon the play and run (sometimes a little too soon).

3) We actually threw the ball twice inside the red zone in the 4th with a lead: 10 yard curl completed to WR and the 50/50 ball caught by Von for a TD called back on a penalty. Not bad for aggressive play calling. Hurd eventually ran for the TD.

4) Kerbyson was right when referring to the 16 play 70+ yard drive when he stated we ran the ball 88% of that drive and they couldn't stop it...why would you stray from that.

5) 5 Scoring Drives against a very good D....no need to expand on that

In any case, play calling in that game was, in reality, excellent. It was very successful in fact. Bottom line: if I told you that this was the formula to put you up 2 scores mid way through the 4th in the Swamp to break the streak, why would you argue that considering how successful we were against a very solid D?

if we could establish any passing downfield we could have ran for 400 yds. It would open up lanes. The game shouldn't have even been 2 scores. We had chances to put them out of their misery just like other games in butchers tenure here and failed to do so. This is the problem.

 

[jakez4ut]

If in addition to that you only have 83 yards passing than it's not even semi successful because it means the offense is one dimensional and good DC's will make adjustments to shut it down during critical later stages of the game - as evidenced in both loses this year.

a point i made literally the post right above this one:

given how we've been able to run the ball, i'm not "upset" about it, to this point.

but, there's no denying that as the season goes on, opponents will line up to stop the run first.

eventually, we're going to have to be able to throw it, and i think they will have to get a little creative in how they do that. the O line still isn't very good at pass protecting, but i don't see them with a ton of situational personnel changes making the passing game predictable.

but you can't look at what our game plan was, how it was executed and say the running game was "semi successful"...and that's a key point...the statement by the poster i was commenting to said the "running game was semi successful", not the entire offense. two different things.

 

[TGVol]

Can you please (no sarcasm serious question) explain how a QB, any QB can pass to WR when they don't even have time for the WR to run their routes? That's what has happened.

Creative OC should come up with a plan to move a mobile QB like Dobbs around to make at least enough completions to keep defenses honest.
By the way, how do you explain that UF had freshmen QB and 3 freshmen OL starters and they found a way to pass the ball in 4th quarter even when they were 13 points behind? If you don't know how here is a hint - they have actually been coached by people who understand offense.

 

[ReaderVol]

Creative OC should come up with a plan to move a mobile QB like Dobbs around to make at least enough completions to keep defenses honest.
By the way, how do you explain that UF had freshmen QB and 3 freshmen OL starters and they found a way to pass the ball in 4th quarter even when they were 13 points behind? If you don't know how here is a hint - they have actually been coached by people who understand offense.

UT actually did move JD around sometimes called but mostly because he had to.

As per UF QB Grier, it's really simple. Go back and look at the defense we ran in the 4th compared to the first 3 qtrs. You will see the answer is simple.

 

[ReaderVol]

if we could establish any passing downfield we could have ran for 400 yds. It would open up lanes. The game shouldn't have even been 2 scores. We had chances to put them out of their misery just like other games in butchers tenure here and failed to do so. This is the problem.

The reality is you can open the field with deep passes when the Oline doesn't give your WR to even get down field.