Pictures of Warren down on terrible spot?

[VolGee4]

I don’t think the ball got to the imaginary line for the first down but it was a lot closer than where they marked it. The ball was a yd closer. It should have been remarked after replay & measured (the tv line isn’t always accurate) for a first down instead of Dofus just saying review says “First down Ole Miss”

I think if the correct mark was used and it was short, things may have been different.

This is where I am. I believe it was closer than where they marked but maybe still short.

 

[ftsandersvol]

Big Tech has scrubbed the web of videos and pics of that play for the good of the country.

 

[VolPack22]

If he had actually stretched the ball out he would’ve gotten it. Unfortunately he had the ball in on his body. Should not have been in a 4th and forever or we possibly could have gone down and scored. Still had an opportunity after that due to conservative play calling by Kiffin.

 

[wmcovol]

If he had actually stretched the ball out he would’ve gotten it. Unfortunately he had the ball in on his body. Should not have been in a 4th and forever or we possibly could have gone down and scored. Still had an opportunity after that due to conservative play calling by Kiffin.

In all fairness to Kiffin, running the ball 3 times there, making Tenn use all their TOs, is the play inside 1 minute. He had no clue Hooker would get hurt but you can’t give a team the ball back with timeouts.

 

[VolPack22]

In all fairness to Kiffin, running the ball 3 times there, making Tenn use all their TOs, is the play inside 1 minute. He had no clue Hooker would get hurt but you can’t give a team the ball back with timeouts.

I disagree, all you have to do is get a first down and the ball game is over. He has all the confidence in the world to go for almost every 4th down throughout the game but all the sudden doesn’t want to try to put the game away? I found it very odd he wasn’t aggressive and it nearly bit him the butt.

 

[wmcovol]

I disagree, all you have to do is get a first down and the ball game is over. He has all the confidence in the world to go for almost every 4th down throughout the game but all the sudden doesn’t want to try to put the game away? I found it very odd he wasn’t aggressive and it nearly bit him the butt.

Well, you can disagree but 99 out of 100 coaches are gonna take the timeouts away.

Cincinnati had Ga beat last yr but elected to try to get the first down with a pass on 3rd down . The pass was incomplete. Ok, so they stopped the clock for Ga, Ga got the punt, drove down & kicked a Fg with 2 secs left. If Cin ran the ball, Ga would have had 30 secs less of clock with no TOs. Probably wouldn’t have been about to throw anything in the middle of the field which makes it easier to defend.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Freak just posted the entire game to YouTube. Giving us a chance to get that back angle showing the ball, and the other angles we've been missing in this thread but which were shown on TV. So let's give this one more shot:

Earlier in this thread, I said I was no photogrammetric analyst. Here's me pretending to be, heh.

Want you to look at three key things in this first photo of the very instant that Warren was "down" by contact:

(1) Warren's left arm. His elbow is down near his waist. You can't see it yet, but that's the ball under his forearm. It's also down around his waist, maybe a bit higher. Like roughly the level of the numbers on his jersey. I'll show you this a bit better in a minute.

(2) Warren's shadow. You can see the light is from the left, at a pretty strong diagonal. Starting at Warren's foot, you can see the shadow touching his toe, then separating at the ankle, so his lower leg was off the ground. Then the shadow reconnects to Warren's body at the knee--that's him being "down." Then it separates again showing his upper body is still off the ground. If you're having trouble seeing what I mean, look at the inset below, where I highlight the shape of the shadow.

(3) The position of #46 of Ole Miss. Specifically, that his left foot is in the paint of the Power T, and it's his last step on orange. We're going to use this for timing. If you're having trouble understanding what I mean, look at the red circle in the inset bottom right.



Okay, so we know that at the very instant #46 was on his left foot just before leaving the orange of the Power T, that was the time when Warren's right knee made contact with the turf and he was "down" by contact.

Now let's look at that same instant in time from the side. This shot is from further away, so it's blurrier. But it's good enough to see how far down the field Warren's body was:



The red circle on the left is the left foot of #46. Same spot. So same time. And the red circle on the right is the center of Warren's torso. Where the ball is, on the other side of his body. A bit less than one yard short of the line to gain (the 40 yard line is, more or less, the line to gain, don't worry about artificial yellow lines).

But how do we know the ball is under that right red circle? Here's the angle we've not had available until now:



This isn't precisely the same instant, it's maybe a tenth of a second off. But it's the least blurry screen shot available showing how Warren was carrying the ball. And as you can see, it's in his left arm, tucked into his elbow, which is down near his waist. Covering the bottom half of the numbers on his jersey. Not under his chin as some claimed earlier in the thread.

So.

Anyway.

We came up short. Not for lack of trying, the lads really were straining for it, and all in all did a great job all night long. Sure, some mistakes, a few dumb penalties, a dropped punt, and some other things that can be cleaned up. But mostly, they held themselves proud, toe to toe with a top 15 team.

Just came up a half a yard short on this play.

Go Vols!

 

[VolGee4]

Freak just posted the entire game to YouTube. Giving us a chance to get that back angle showing the ball, and the other angles we've been missing in this thread but which were shown on TV. So let's give this one more shot:

Earlier in this thread, I said I was no photogrammetric analyst. Here's me pretending to be, heh.

Want you to look at three key things in this first photo of the very instant that Warren was "down" by contact:

(1) Warren's left arm. His elbow is down near his waist. You can't see it yet, but that's the ball under his forearm. It's also down around his waist, maybe a bit higher. Like roughly the level of the numbers on his jersey. I'll show you this a bit better in a minute.

(2) Warren's shadow. You can see the light is from the left, at a pretty strong diagonal. Starting at Warren's foot, you can see the shadow touching his toe, then separating at the ankle, so his lower leg was off the ground. Then the shadow reconnects to Warren's body at the knee--that's him being "down." Then it separates again showing his upper body is still off the ground. If you're having trouble seeing what I mean, look at the inset below, where I highlight the shape of the shadow.

(3) The position of #46 of Ole Miss. Specifically, that his left foot is in the paint of the Power T, and it's his last step on orange. We're going to use this for timing. If you're having trouble understanding what I mean, look at the red circle in the inset bottom right.

View attachment 404260

Okay, so we know that at the very instant #46 was on his left foot just before leaving the orange of the Power T, that was the time when Warren's right knee made contact with the turf and he was "down" by contact.

Now let's look at that same instant in time from the side. This shot is from further away, so it's blurrier. But it's good enough to see how far down the field Warren's body was:

View attachment 404263

The red circle on the left is the left foot of #46. Same spot. So same time. And the red circle on the right is the center of Warren's torso. Where the ball is, on the other side of his body. One yard short of the line to gain (the 40 yard line is, more or less, the line to gain, don't worry about artificial yellow lines).

But how do we know the ball is under that right red circle? Here's the angle we've not had available until now:

View attachment 404265

This isn't precisely the same instant, it's maybe a tenth of a second off. But it's the least blurry screen shot available showing how Warren was carrying the ball. And as you can see, it's in his left arm, tucked into his elbow, which is down near his waist. Even with the bottom of the numbers on his jersey. Not under his chin as some claimed earlier in the thread.

So.

Anyway.

We came up short. Not for lack of trying, the lads really were straining for it, and all in all did a great job all night long. Sure, some mistakes, a few dumb penalties, a dropped punt, and some other things that can be cleaned up. But mostly, they held themselves proud, toe to toe with a top 15 team.

Just came up a half a yard short on this play.

Go Vols!

Nice work! I still don’t think this shows it definitively.

A camera angle from the opposite sideline is what was needed, which apparently the SECN doesn’t care about.

I’m tending to think he was short, but I also don’t believe the spot was correct.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Nice work! I still don’t think this shows it definitively.

A camera angle from the opposite sideline is what was needed, which apparently the SECN doesn’t care about.

I’m tending to think he was short, but I also don’t believe the spot was correct.

I do. I believe they got it right. Shockingly right. I know I couldn't have spotted it that well if I'd been in the ref's position, with that split-second timing.

I not only watched every single replay on TV the night of the game, I've now spent hours poring over it with all available footage. It's pretty conclusive once you take off the orange-tinted glasses. We came up just under a yard short of the line to gain.

It was an accurate spot. Not a happy one for us, but an accurate one.

 

[VolGee4]

I do. I believe they got it right. Shockingly right. I know I couldn't have spotted it that well if I'd been in the ref's position, with that split-second timing.

I not only watched every single replay on TV the night of the game, I've now spent hours poring over it with all available footage. It's pretty conclusive once you take off the orange-tinted glasses. We came up just under a yard short of the line to gain.

It was an accurate spot. Not a happy one for us, but an accurate one.

I don’t see how anyone can say it’s conclusive. No angle shows it conclusive, and that’s why replay would uphold the original spot.

I’ve said that I tend to think it’s probably short, so that’s not having any bias.

But this, along with the other blunders, makes it an accumulation of bad calls and positioning to make calls.

This is a call that reasonable minds can disagree, and I don’t understand how people can’t accept that.

 

[JoAllan]

Freak just posted the entire game to YouTube. Giving us a chance to get that back angle showing the ball, and the other angles we've been missing in this thread but which were shown on TV. So let's give this one more shot:

Earlier in this thread, I said I was no photogrammetric analyst. Here's me pretending to be, heh.

Want you to look at three key things in this first photo of the very instant that Warren was "down" by contact:

(1) Warren's left arm. His elbow is down near his waist. You can't see it yet, but that's the ball under his forearm. It's also down around his waist, maybe a bit higher. Like roughly the level of the numbers on his jersey. I'll show you this a bit better in a minute.

(2) Warren's shadow. You can see the light is from the left, at a pretty strong diagonal. Starting at Warren's foot, you can see the shadow touching his toe, then separating at the ankle, so his lower leg was off the ground. Then the shadow reconnects to Warren's body at the knee--that's him being "down." Then it separates again showing his upper body is still off the ground. If you're having trouble seeing what I mean, look at the inset below, where I highlight the shape of the shadow.

(3) The position of #46 of Ole Miss. Specifically, that his left foot is in the paint of the Power T, and it's his last step on orange. We're going to use this for timing. If you're having trouble understanding what I mean, look at the red circle in the inset bottom right.

View attachment 404260

Okay, so we know that at the very instant #46 was on his left foot just before leaving the orange of the Power T, that was the time when Warren's right knee made contact with the turf and he was "down" by contact.

Now let's look at that same instant in time from the side. This shot is from further away, so it's blurrier. But it's good enough to see how far down the field Warren's body was:

View attachment 404263

The red circle on the left is the left foot of #46. Same spot. So same time. And the red circle on the right is the center of Warren's torso. Where the ball is, on the other side of his body. A bit less than one yard short of the line to gain (the 40 yard line is, more or less, the line to gain, don't worry about artificial yellow lines).

But how do we know the ball is under that right red circle? Here's the angle we've not had available until now:

View attachment 404265

This isn't precisely the same instant, it's maybe a tenth of a second off. But it's the least blurry screen shot available showing how Warren was carrying the ball. And as you can see, it's in his left arm, tucked into his elbow, which is down near his waist. Covering the bottom half of the numbers on his jersey. Not under his chin as some claimed earlier in the thread.

So.

Anyway.

We came up short. Not for lack of trying, the lads really were straining for it, and all in all did a great job all night long. Sure, some mistakes, a few dumb penalties, a dropped punt, and some other things that can be cleaned up. But mostly, they held themselves proud, toe to toe with a top 15 team.

Just came up a half a yard short on this play.

Go Vols!

Im not arguing the spot at all…..it’s a close one.

However your showing us pictures with “assumptions” then associated with them.

In the first picture…….is his knee or hip or whatever definitely down? In the slowmo video I saw it appeared he kept his knee and all of the ground until he and his arm hit later.

You also show a picture of the ball around his numbers………however is that the “instant” he hit the ground? One can easily surmise once he hit the ground and started sliding the arm and ball probably went backwards……from the slide……so which is it……we don’t know from that picture.

Hard to make “definitive” statements on this based on “assumptions.”

 

[OldVol]

I agree it was short but go back and watch how they spotted us all night and then watch how they spotted Ole Miss. Numerous times an OM player was down and then fell forward and they gave them the spot of where they finally stopped moving rather than where they had actually been down. You can also see UT not once got one of these favorable spots.

Granted this was the only one that had a major impact but if they were giving them an extra 1/2-1 yard on 5 of a 10 play drive that could be the difference between 1st and goal at the 1 verse the 5

If they hadn't taken 6 points off the board on a totally incompetent, inaccurate call this wouldn't be an issue. They screwed us out of a legitimate win. Please contact the SEC. See my post on Marc Curles.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Im not arguing the spot at all…..it’s a close one.

However your showing us pictures with “assumptions” then associated with them.

In the first picture…….is his knee or hip or whatever definitely down? In the slowmo video I saw it appeared he kept his knee and all of the ground until he and his arm hit later.

You also show a picture of the ball around his numbers………however is that the “instant” he hit the ground? One can easily surmise once he hit the ground and started sliding the arm and ball probably went backwards……from the slide……so which is it……we don’t know from that picture.

Hard to make “definitive” statements on this based on “assumptions.”

There's not a single assumption in post #207.

The shadow definitively shows his knee is touching the ground. That's not an assumption, it is physics.

And the screen capture with the angle showing the ball in his stomach is off a little in timing, sure. But go back to the photo of the instant Warren was down. It also shows his left elbow down by his waist. Which means there's no assumption here, either. Elbow by waist at time of 'down' contact, elbow still at waist a split second later showing the ball is held by that hand. He certainly didn't move the ball from one hand to the other in that split second, and his elbow is down by his waist in both. No assumption needed. The ball was over the lower part of the numbers on his jersey.

Left elbow at waist at moment of contact .......................Left elbow at waist a moment later


The ball was down at his lower torso when his knee hit the ground. No assumption.

 

[VolGee4]

There's not a single assumption in post #207.

The shadow definitively shows his knee is touching the ground. That's not an assumption, it is physics.

And the screen capture with the angle showing the ball in his stomach is off a little in timing, sure. But go back to the photo of the instant Warren was down. It also shows his left elbow down by his waist. Which means there's no assumption here, either. Elbow by waist at time of 'down' contact, elbow still at waist a split second later showing the ball is held by that hand. He certainly didn't move the ball from one hand to the other in that split second, and his elbow is down by his waist in both. No assumption needed. The ball was over the lower part of the numbers on his jersey.

Left elbow at waist at moment of contact .......................Left elbow at waist a moment later
View attachment 404278

The ball was down at his lower torso when his knee hit the ground. No assumption.

If you look at the picture on the left, his left toes are almost touching the 41 yard line. Based on his height, his torso would be passed the 41 with the ball. That’s why I don’t think it was a yard short. Again, I tend to believe it may have been just short.

 

[JoAllan]

There's not a single assumption in post #207.

The shadow definitively shows his knee is touching the ground. That's not an assumption, it is physics.

And the screen capture with the angle showing the ball in his stomach is off a little in timing, sure. But go back to the photo of the instant Warren was down. It also shows his left elbow down by his waist. Which means there's no assumption here, either. Elbow by waist at time of 'down' contact, elbow still at waist a split second later showing the ball is held by that hand. He certainly didn't move the ball from one hand to the other in that split second, and his elbow is down by his waist in both. No assumption needed. The ball was over the lower part of the numbers on his jersey.

Left elbow at waist at moment of contact .......................Left elbow at waist a moment later
View attachment 404278

The ball was down at his lower torso when his knee hit the ground. No assumption.

I see facts differently. To me facts are something that is indisputable. That call may very well be indisputable……..but “proving” it from those photos……..certainly doesn’t do the job.

To me showing his arm in one photo……doesn’t mean the ball is in the exact same place in said photo as it is in another photo.

How does a “shadow” prove his knee is touching turf?……at that exact moment.

Looks pretty close…….I’m not saying it isn’t……I’m saying you can’t say for sure it is………at least from those photos.

yes assumptions

 

[OldVol]

 

[pharmDvol11]

Sure, we can break it down. Surprised it hasn't already been done.

Here's the image that caused folks in the stands to apparently lose their collective ship:

View attachment 403861

And if you knew nothing more, you might think that's the ball in his right hand, reaching across the 40-yard line for a first down.

But other angles clearly showed the ball was actually in his LEFT hand. Tucked down in his gut. Roughly on line with the red line I'll add here:

View attachment 403863

And that's where the refs spotted the ball, more or less. I mean, it doesn't matter if the ball was a half-yard short or a full yard short. Turnover on downs, either way.

Oh, and by the way, this screen capture is already a spllit-second late. When the player's right thigh touched the ground, his right arm hadn't yet gone forward. In other words, he was even further back than this. Not a lot, but enough.

I didn't find those other angles that showed the ball near his belly in his left hand. But they showed it clearly during the delay, a few times.

The refs made some bad calls in last night's game. This was not one of them.

Fantastic breakdown JP

 

[BlinghamptonVol]

Wrong. I can show you another shot where he is even further down the field. I took the shot at the exact point that he hit the ground.

From what I can tell, the announcers purposely used a TV replay shot with a bad camera angle (and taken too soon) that looks nothing like the actual game film that had the better view.

So you took two shots of when he was down and one is further down the field than the other? Ummmmmm....

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

There's not a single assumption in post #207.

The shadow definitively shows his knee is touching the ground. That's not an assumption, it is physics.

And the screen capture with the angle showing the ball in his stomach is off a little in timing, sure. But go back to the photo of the instant Warren was down. It also shows his left elbow down by his waist. Which means there's no assumption here, either. Elbow by waist at time of 'down' contact, elbow still at waist a split second later showing the ball is held by that hand. He certainly didn't move the ball from one hand to the other in that split second, and his elbow is down by his waist in both. No assumption needed. The ball was over the lower part of the numbers on his jersey.

Left elbow at waist at moment of contact .......................Left elbow at waist a moment later
View attachment 404278

The ball was down at his lower torso when his knee hit the ground. No assumption.

If it is at his LOWER waist why can I not see anything but the very top of the 8 or the 7? Why is there a distinct shadow under his knee in this shot? Don't know where he was when he hit the ground but it is not in your first shot. I have yet to see a definitive shot or clip to support either side. Surprised it is not in a game film or something actually showing the location of the ball AND the knee actually contacting the field.

 

[DickeyD]

Perhaps, but if it was ruled a first down on the field it would not have been overturned. The ruling stood, wasn’t confirmed. The camera angles were poor. I’m definitely not convinced either way by the pictures ITT.

By the way, why don’t we just have cameras on the chains at the first down spot?

You are right on this.

 

[Fullfillmer]

I have an honest scientific question that I need help with. In the second photo used to show the ball short with the drawn in red line, how does a man down have a complete shadow under his body? I mean I can see the shadow from his hip up. Can someone smarter than myself explain how this works? Since I can't see his knee from this photo how am I to believe this is proof that he is down. Thanks for any and all explanations as I must be confused on how shadows are created and or casted.

He casts a shadow because he hasn’t hit the ground in that picture. Some people just used that pic to justify calling it short imho. He ultimately landed farther up field.

 

[AllVols]

Freak just posted the entire game to YouTube. Giving us a chance to get that back angle showing the ball, and the other angles we've been missing in this thread but which were shown on TV. So let's give this one more shot:

Earlier in this thread, I said I was no photogrammetric analyst. Here's me pretending to be, heh.

Want you to look at three key things in this first photo of the very instant that Warren was "down" by contact:

(1) Warren's left arm. His elbow is down near his waist. You can't see it yet, but that's the ball under his forearm. It's also down around his waist, maybe a bit higher. Like roughly the level of the numbers on his jersey. I'll show you this a bit better in a minute.

(2) Warren's shadow. You can see the light is from the left, at a pretty strong diagonal. Starting at Warren's foot, you can see the shadow touching his toe, then separating at the ankle, so his lower leg was off the ground. Then the shadow reconnects to Warren's body at the knee--that's him being "down." Then it separates again showing his upper body is still off the ground. If you're having trouble seeing what I mean, look at the inset below, where I highlight the shape of the shadow.

(3) The position of #46 of Ole Miss. Specifically, that his left foot is in the paint of the Power T, and it's his last step on orange. We're going to use this for timing. If you're having trouble understanding what I mean, look at the red circle in the inset bottom right.

View attachment 404260

Okay, so we know that at the very instant #46 was on his left foot just before leaving the orange of the Power T, that was the time when Warren's right knee made contact with the turf and he was "down" by contact.

Now let's look at that same instant in time from the side. This shot is from further away, so it's blurrier. But it's good enough to see how far down the field Warren's body was:

View attachment 404263

The red circle on the left is the left foot of #46. Same spot. So same time. And the red circle on the right is the center of Warren's torso. Where the ball is, on the other side of his body. A bit less than one yard short of the line to gain (the 40 yard line is, more or less, the line to gain, don't worry about artificial yellow lines).

But how do we know the ball is under that right red circle? Here's the angle we've not had available until now:

View attachment 404265

This isn't precisely the same instant, it's maybe a tenth of a second off. But it's the least blurry screen shot available showing how Warren was carrying the ball. And as you can see, it's in his left arm, tucked into his elbow, which is down near his waist. Covering the bottom half of the numbers on his jersey. Not under his chin as some claimed earlier in the thread.

So.

Anyway.

We came up short. Not for lack of trying, the lads really were straining for it, and all in all did a great job all night long. Sure, some mistakes, a few dumb penalties, a dropped punt, and some other things that can be cleaned up. But mostly, they held themselves proud, toe to toe with a top 15 team.

Just came up a half a yard short on this play.

Go Vols!

Man that is some JFK stuff there.

 

[FLVOL_79]

Now do one that shows where the ball would have been spotted if it was UGA or Bama.

 

[VolFreakJosh]

How could a ref that was standing 20 yds away, even tell if he was short or not?

There’s no way in hell the marker was even close to being accurate.

I still call BS.