Per Hubbs, "lack of depth biggest concern for this team"

#53
#53
And the point wasn't what you made it anyway. It was that it took Martin 5 years. What if they had canned him in 3 or 4 after no tourneys... It didn't even look good for year 5.

I was agreeing w the previous poster that the leash is too short in many cases.
 
#56
#56
AllVolForLife_16 said:
"Some guys haven't been what we thought they'd be." My issue with that quote is under Butch Jones, the players who were supposed to make an immediate impact, rarely ever do. The lack of player development from this staff has been down right puzzling.
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eh. there have been sure misses that's for sure. Williams, Hurd, Martin up to this point.

but if by puzzling you mean you have those types mentioned above, and you have guys like Sutton, Maybin, Kamara, Malone etc...who have shown progress, then i agree. it's been a mixed bag. you'd like to see the 5* guys be the "cant miss" guys, with the aforementioned developmental guys turn in to key contributors like Maybin, sutton etc...too many of the "can't miss" guys have missed. no argument.

but again, i think you have to look no further than the changes made on the staff this off season to understand that Butch at least recognizes this to be an issue too.
 
#60
#60
unless i've missed something the only injury that should linger in to the season is tuttle's.
 
#61
#61
volfanbill said:
So we have issues most major programs go through. But we have the same issue every single year
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i think you can expect it every single year. that's not really the issue. it's the volume of the same issues, be it attrition or injury, that is troubling. when we signed that class of 32 players in 14, i pretty much figured 1/3 wouldn't come to fruition.

and there was a thread a while back, about attrition rates, and while every program has it, we were in the bottom 2 or 3 of the league in attrition rate over the last 5 years.

again, some to be expected with new coaching staff, some to be expected with the large class.

but it was fairly consistent at 30%ish....that's high by any standard. troubling too was the departure mid season by Williams and Hurd. two of the more ballyhooed recruits that made those two classes what they were.

there were others of course, and you add it all up, and it just didn't look good. could be recruiting profiles, could be player/coach issue, could be....a lot of things, and in the Hurd case, we've all heard the stories.

in any event, it's something that can't go on, if you want to have the competitive depth necessary to compete at a high level in this league.

so we wait and see if these changes to the staff have any positive impact to that, and a great many other things related to recruiting, development and on game day.
 
#64
#64
When you recruit elite players, you know some of them will leave after 3 years-- or transfer if they don't get PT. Coaches plan for that and manage the roster accordingly. We didn't lose any players to the draft that the staff didn't expect to lose.
 
#65
#65
jakez4ut said:
i think you can expect it every single year. that's not really the issue. it's the volume of the same issues, be it attrition or injury, that is troubling. when we signed that class of 32 players in 14, i pretty much figured 1/3 wouldn't come to fruition.

and there was a thread a while back, about attrition rates, and while every program has it, we were in the bottom 2 or 3 of the league in attrition rate over the last 5 years.

again, some to be expected with new coaching staff, some to be expected with the large class.

but it was fairly consistent at 30%ish....that's high by any standard. troubling too was the departure mid season by Williams and Hurd. two of the more ballyhooed recruits that made those two classes what they were.

there were others of course, and you add it all up, and it just didn't look good. could be recruiting profiles, could be player/coach issue, could be....a lot of things, and in the Hurd case, we've all heard the stories.

in any event, it's something that can't go on, if you want to have the competitive depth necessary to compete at a high level in this league.

so we wait and see if these changes to the staff have any positive impact to that, and a great many other things related to recruiting, development and on game day.
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These are reasonable thoughts. I happen to be old-school when it comes to developing players. Tennessee should be able to compete with the best when it comes to recruiting. Tennessee should never recruit any player with the intent of redshirting him.

Every single player on scholarship should be GAME READY by his second year or he should not be on the roster. Butch has shown that he is not hesitant about letting players transfer to make room for others (i.e. recruits).

But he and his "best staff in America" showed us through four years that they were not very good at all at developing players and putting them into the league.

Butch has also shown that he and his staff have a serious problem developing depth, as many on here have argued. I agree.

These are ALL his players that he recruited. It is absurd to even be talking about "lack of depth" this far into Butch's tenure. His responsibility is to develop ALL his scholarship players to their maximum potential.

Our 3s and 4s should be heading towards being game ready, right? Otherwise, why are they even wearing the uniform and getting a free education?
 
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#66
#66
LA Vol said:
When you recruit elite players, you know some of them will leave after 3 years-- or transfer if they don't get PT. Coaches plan for that and manage the roster accordingly. We didn't lose any players to the draft that the staff didn't expect to lose.
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There may be some lack of experienced depth, but we are building a full roster of upperclassmen that have bought in on the master plan.
 
#67
#67
LA Vol said:
When you recruit elite players, you know some of them will leave after 3 years-- or transfer if they don't get PT. Coaches plan for that and manage the roster accordingly. We didn't lose any players to the draft that the staff didn't expect to lose.
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sure we did. i don't think they expected North to declare when he did, and i think they believed Malone would be back for 2018. granted, it's not like a huge vacuum is being left as a result, but we have had it happen.

and again, it's not that some left. some always will.

it's the 30% ish rate that's alarming. iirc from that data in that thread, the average is around 20-21%, and the upper tier teams in the SEC were in the teens....

i don't think we planned for that kind of attrition. no one does. i think they were trying to by signing that huge class in 14, but when a good bit of that class bolts, and you sign 60% of that the next year....and you have normal attrition from that class....all the sudden you're just trying to get bodies. which may explain why we loaded up on so many mid tier level guys on this last cycle?? who knows, just a guess.
 
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#69
#69
DenmarkVol said:
These are reasonable thoughts. I happen to be old-school when it comes to developing players. Tennessee should be able to compete with the best when it comes to recruiting. Tennessee should never recruit any player with the intent of redshirting him.

Every single player on scholarship should be GAME READY by his second year or he should not be on the roster. Butch has shown that he is not hesitant about letting players transfer to make room for others (i.e. recruits).

Butch he and his "best staff in America" showed us through four years that they were not very good at all at developing players and putting them into the league.

Butch has also shown that he and his staff have a serious problem developing depth, as many on here have argued. I agree.

These are ALL his players that he recruited. It is absurd to even be talking about "depth" this far into Butch's tenure. His responsibility is to develop ALL his scholarship players to their maximum potential.

Our 3s and 4s should be heading towards being game ready, right? Otherwise, why are they even wearing the uniform and getting a free education?
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agreed. never said otherwise. just commenting on the here and now. which includes the changes on the staff to address many, if not all, the issues you raised. most of which, i basically agree with....

it's just that all just deals with the how/why we got where we are. not where do we go from here? which is all that matters at this point.
 
#72
#72
jakez4ut said:
6 draft eligible players, 3 of which are early departures

Injuries

Attrition

Some guys haven't been what we thought they'd be.
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The biggest problem, unfortunately, is that last one. And that's the one the coaching staff has the most control over via who you recruit and how you coach.
 
#73
#73
DenmarkVol said:
These are reasonable thoughts. I happen to be old-school when it comes to developing players. Tennessee should be able to compete with the best when it comes to recruiting. Tennessee should never recruit any player with the intent of redshirting him.

Every single player on scholarship should be GAME READY by his second year or he should not be on the roster. Butch has shown that he is not hesitant about letting players transfer to make room for others (i.e. recruits).

Butch he and his "best staff in America" showed us through four years that they were not very good at all at developing players and putting them into the league.

Butch has also shown that he and his staff have a serious problem developing depth, as many on here have argued. I agree.

These are ALL his players that he recruited. It is absurd to even be talking about "depth" this far into Butch's tenure. His responsibility is to develop ALL his scholarship players to their maximum potential.

Our 3s and 4s should be heading towards being game ready, right? Otherwise, why are they even wearing the uniform and getting a free education?
Click to expand...

and we haven't red shirted that many guys....Richmond, Guarantano are the two that stand out. tried to with Dobbs. past that........? anyone else of consequence?

i also think we've had to rely on too many juco players, cause if they don't come in and have an immediate impact production wise, then that can set you back too. granted i think there's a time and place for that in a program, especially early on in rebuilding, but as you work your way out of that, you really should be getting most of your production from the returning roster, and impact freshmen (which shouldn't be that many of those either).

past that, Juco players should be kind of a luxury deal, done out of a position of want, not need.
 
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