Over-recruiting question

#1
skasper06

skasper06

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#1
I don't expect this thread to be super long with 300 replies... I am just curious about something that someone may be able to answer in one response...

Once we hit 30 verbal commits (which could happen any day now), what can we do? Obviously players decommit and change their minds... I get that and I expect it. But our guys seem pretty dedicated. I don't see many, if any at all, backing out. I think they would have done it by now if they were going to since we aren't exactly having a BCS Bowl-bid season.

So, say we continue to recruit...and we continue to accept verbal commits...What happens on National Signing Day? I am honestly just completely ignorant to that process. It's definitely not a bad problem to have, but I can't recall ever having that problem at UT.

Say we have 35 verbals from over-recruiting...what do we do on NSD when they all want to send in their LOI? Again, not trying to stir up a huge controversial thread. I am just simply ignorant to the process and our options??
 
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#2
#2
why are you trying to start stuff.

the undeveloped croots grayshirt also EE help they dont count you can get your 85 players
 
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#3
#3
When you factor in some kids grades won't make it, some will be grey shirted, and some will switch. We will sign the 30 best student athletes that will suit this teams needs. If there is 35 verbals then 5 of them will be left to sign somewhere else. It really is this simple. Just sit back enjoy the ride. GBO!
 
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#4
#4
rockytop114 said:
why are you trying to start stuff.

the undeveloped croots grayshirt also EE help they dont count you can get your 85 players
Click to expand...

haha, sorry man. I am just an instigator I guess...

So the EE guys don't cound towards the class since they are obviously enrolled before NSD, correct?

So say Jalen Hurd is an EE (which is his intention), he doesn't count towards our 30 max?
 
#8
#8
If you take the square root of the moon's gravitational pull and subtract the weight of Saturn's rings, you will be with 1 or 2 of our scholarship allotment.
PS. This has to be calculated on a harvest moon
 
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#9
#9
skasper06 said:
I don't expect this thread to be super long with 300 replies... I am just curious about something that someone may be able to answer in one response...

Once we hit 30 verbal commits (which could happen any day now), what can we do? Obviously players decommit and change their minds... I get that and I expect it. But our guys seem pretty dedicated. I don't see many, if any at all, backing out. I think they would have done it by now if they were going to since we aren't exactly having a BCS Bowl-bid season.

So, say we continue to recruit...and we continue to accept verbal commits...What happens on National Signing Day? I am honestly just completely ignorant to that process. It's definitely not a bad problem to have, but I can't recall ever having that problem at UT.

Say we have 35 verbals from over-recruiting...what do we do on NSD when they all want to send in their LOI? Again, not trying to stir up a huge controversial thread. I am just simply ignorant to the process and our options??
Click to expand...




This is a good situation to be in but we will have no excitement on National Signing Day!

We are usually excited a few days prior to NSD and start talking about " The Big Fish"
 
#11
#11
jkleno said:
If you take the square root of the moon's gravitational pull and subtract the weight of Saturn's rings, you will be with 1 or 2 of our scholarship allotment.
PS. This has to be calculated on a harvest moon
Click to expand...

-G*m1*m2/r^2 for the gravitational force... someone get the mass of Saturn's rings, stat.
 
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#12
#12
skasper06 said:
haha, sorry man. I am just an instigator I guess...

So the EE guys don't cound towards the class since they are obviously enrolled before NSD, correct?

So say Jalen Hurd is an EE (which is his intention), he doesn't count towards our 30 max?
Click to expand...



Let's imagine that last season, we could have signed 27 recruits but 3 of them didn't make it to campus due to academic issues.

We can get 3 signed as "EE's" and count them from the 2013 signing class. It is called "Back Counting"

So, we can sign 3 to make up for the 3 that didn't make it to campus last year, then we sign this years class.

However; there are times when the coach will just give those scholarships to a deserving walk on.
 
#13
#13
Rudy123 said:
This is a good situation to be in but we will have no excitement on National Signing Day!

We are usually excited a few days prior to NSD and start talking about " The Big Fish"
Click to expand...

The last few years I've been left disappointed come NSD. I'd rather be bored and know we are good to go then be let down and realize we are filling the rest of our 85 scholarships by signing senior walkons because we missed out on all our prospects on NSD. Other then CP Dooley failed miserably on NSD.
 
#14
#14
skasper06 said:
haha, sorry man. I am just an instigator I guess...

So the EE guys don't cound towards the class since they are obviously enrolled before NSD, correct?

So say Jalen Hurd is an EE (which is his intention), he doesn't count towards our 30 max?
Click to expand...



A few days ago, I saw a list that had 16 EE's and another 14 recruits that would sign on NSD. So, more than 1/2 our class will be on campus for bowl practice and for spring practice.

That is more time in the weight room and more time in the play book... Getting a head start for the 2014 season.
 
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#15
#15
keckjm said:
The last few years I've been left disappointed come NSD. I'd rather be bored and know we are good to go then be let down and realize we are filling the rest of our 85 scholarships by signing senior walkons because we missed out on all our prospects on NSD. Other then CP Dooley failed miserably on NSD.
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I can't remember everything but I do know that Stone, Hunter & Da Rick were NOT coming to U.T. with Kiffin as the coach. Were those guys committments prior to NSD or on NSD? Dooley pulled them in!!!
 
#18
#18
You all who know more than me correct me where I'm wrong.

National Signing Day is Wed Feb 5th 2014. Many schools fill their quota of National Letters of Intent (NLIs) on that day and some do not. May 31st is the cutoff day for receiving NLIs.

Commitment does not really mean commitment anymore, it's now a misnomer and should be more like 'where I want to go if I don't change my mind':wink2:

Commitments are not NLIs. Most players aren't dumb with regards to recruiting. If they are, say the lowest 3* at a position, and a 4* or 5* decides to 'commit' they have to understand they might get bumped.

A NLI is a binding agreement the recruit will play for the school and the school will pay an academic scholarship for one year. After signing an NLI a recruit who decides to go elsewhere has to sit for a year, unless the school forgoes the one year requirement.

But, a National Letter of Intent is not the same as enrolling in school. The NLIs are sent in when these kids are in their last semester of high school and at that time meet the NCAA academic eligibility rules, and might not at the end of the school year, and they have until college enrollment to make that up. They also might not heal from injury.

Between NSD and May 31, programs track their NLI recruits health academic eligibility. Most are fine, a few borderline, and others never will get in. Some they really want (academic greyshirts) (medical redshirts) and others aren't worth the risk and are dropped and the scholly is open.

So.. with the 25 recruit limit each year, there are certain legal NCAA exceptions.

A team can sign no more than 25 recruits if it used the full 25 in the previous year. But if not, the recruits above 25 for the new season must enroll in December the year before the season they want to make the roster. No matter how many recruits are signed, they have to be below 85 scholarships and the roll overs from smaller previous years signing and jockeying with academic eligibility can add a few over the 25 limit and stay within the NCAA rules..
 
#19
#19
Orangedogsrule said:
You all who know more than me correct me where I'm wrong.

National Signing Day is Wed Feb 5th 2014. Many schools fill their quota of National Letters of Intent (NLIs) on that day and some do not. May 31st is the cutoff day for receiving NLIs.

Commitment does not really mean commitment anymore, it's now a misnomer and should be more like 'where I want to go if I don't change my mind':wink2:

Commitments are not NLIs. Most players aren't dumb with regards to recruiting. If they are, say the lowest 3* at a position, and a 4* or 5* decides to 'commit' they have to understand they might get bumped.

A NLI is a binding agreement the recruit will play for the school and the school will pay an academic scholarship for one year. After signing an NLI a recruit who decides to go elsewhere has to sit for a year, unless the school forgoes the one year requirement.

But, a National Letter of Intent is not the same as enrolling in school. The NLIs are sent in when these kids are in their last semester of high school and at that time meet the NCAA academic eligibility rules, and might not at the end of the school year, and they have until college enrollment to make that up. They also might not heal from injury.

Between NSD and May 31, programs track their NLI recruits health academic eligibility. Most are fine, a few borderline, and others never will get in. Some they really want (academic greyshirts) (medical redshirts) and others aren't worth the risk and are dropped and the scholly is open.

So.. with the 25 recruit limit each year, there are certain legal NCAA exceptions.

A team can sign no more than 25 recruits if it used the full 25 in the previous year. But if not, the recruits above 25 for the new season must enroll in December the year before the season they want to make the roster. No matter how many recruits are signed, they have to be below 85 scholarships and the roll overs from smaller previous years signing and jockeying with academic eligibility can add a few over the 25 limit and stay within the NCAA rules..
Click to expand...



More the most part, that is the way that I understood it.

However; I was always under the impression that if we only had 45 player on scholarship, then we could sign 40 players to make the total to 85 scholarship players on the team.

But you are saying 25 new scholarships per recruiting cycle.

What would happen if we find ourselves well below the 85 scholarship limit but can only sign 25 per season? Hell, we would never be able to get to 85......
 
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#20
#20
Rudy123 said:
More the most part, that is the way that I understood it.

However; I was always under the impression that if we only had 45 player on scholarship, then we could sign 40 players to make the total to 85 scholarship players on the team.

But you are saying 25 new scholarships per recruiting cycle.

What would happen if we find ourselves well below the 85 scholarship limit but can only sign 25 per season? Hell, we would never be able to get to 85......
Click to expand...

That's a really good question and I don't know the answer. I never thought about it. I mean, with back counting EE's, and all (and all here is, "I don't know all the rules and caveats that let coaches go way over the 25 man limit"), how in blazes could a school get down to a 40 scholly roster.

Does anyone know what the average graduation attrition is for Div I schools? Add a few career ending injuries, dismissals, etc. and I still don't see getting down 40 without catastrophic events such as Marshall's.
 
#21
#21
Rudy123 said:
Let's imagine that last season, we could have signed 27 recruits but 3 of them didn't make it to campus due to academic issues.

We can get 3 signed as "EE's" and count them from the 2013 signing class. It is called "Back Counting"

So, we can sign 3 to make up for the 3 that didn't make it to campus last year, then we sign this years class.

However; there are times when the coach will just give those scholarships to a deserving walk on.
Click to expand...

This is not how it works. You cannot backcount an academic casualty. They are still an "initial counter" and WILL count against the 25 limit. They obviously will NOT count against the 85 limit.
 
#22
#22
And what has not been said in this thread is that the schools are the ones who send the NLI document to the prospects on or before Signing Day. If UT has decided to not allow a prospect to sign (because of academics, etc.) then it will not send that prospect a NLI and will therefore not accept it. That is the way you get to your number if you have had an excess of verbal commitments.
 
#23
#23
I'm already excited about our class. I know there will be a few changes between now and signing day but I think we will keep most of who we got. So this yr on signing day I'm just going to sit back and relax for once. Awesome job to Butch and his staff. GO VOLS!
 
#24
#24
Rudy123 said:
This is a good situation to be in but we will have no excitement on National Signing Day!

We are usually excited a few days prior to NSD and start talking about " The Big Fish"
Click to expand...

Whatchutawkinbout? That fax machine is going to look like one of those trout rearing pools up in the Smokeys when they toss in a bucket of feed! :yes:

Hope they have the fax cam again BTW.
 
#25
#25
Orangedogsrule said:
That's a really good question and I don't know the answer. I never thought about it. I mean, with back counting EE's, and all (and all here is, "I don't know all the rules and caveats that let coaches go way over the 25 man limit"), how in blazes could a school get down to a 40 scholly roster.

Does anyone know what the average graduation attrition is for Div I schools? Add a few career ending injuries, dismissals, etc. and I still don't see getting down 40 without catastrophic events such as Marshall's.
Click to expand...

How does a school replenish its numbers to get to 85 total scholarships? Easy. Even assuming that every player graduates no later than 4 years, signing 25 true freshmen per class would result in a total of 100 total scholarships after 4 recruiting classes. So even if a coach inherited a roster with zero players on scholarship, he could get to 85 within 4 recruiting classes if at least 85% of his 100 signees stay for four years. Here's an example:

25 players (Class of 2019) sign in Spring 2014, 25 total
25 players (Class of 2020) sign in Spring 2015, 50 total
25 players (Class of 2021) sign in Spring 2016, 75 total
25 players (Class of 2022) sign in Spring 2017, 100 total

Considering that many scholarship players stay on the roster for 5 or 6 years due to redshirting, it shouldn't be hard to maintain a team near the 85 total scholarship limit. Ideally, a strong program has a high graduation rate with all of their players "redshirting" their first year to develop physically. Assuming a 90% graduation rate, a team could sustain a roster near the 85 total scholarship limit by signing 19 players per class, with 17 players (x 5 years on scholarship) getting to 85 total and the two "extra" signees per class accounting for players expected to leave school early (transfers, expulsions, early NFL draft declarants, etc). Given UT's need for immediate help, however, Butch Jones is signing as many players as possible (including JUCOs) with the expectation that they'll play immediately and graduate before 5 years.
 
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