Our Horrific Defense

Are our defensive woes more attributable to lack of talent or to a misguided scheme?

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#1
nyc_vol

nyc_vol

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#1
Are our defensive woes more attributable to personnel or scheme?

The kneejerk response is to pile on Sunseri, and, frankly, he and Dooley deserve it.

The more interesting question at this disastrous point is whether competent coaching can conjure up an average or better defense with our existing talent and depth. We'll have a lot of these guys returning next year - as we did this year, sadly - so how likely is it that we can coach up a defense that is better than embarrassing, which, assuming that two of the big three (Bray, Hunter, CP) return, could lead to a pretty interesting team in 2013 and perhaps instant success for a new coach.

I believe that our talent level, even in the defensive backfield, is not as far off as the surreal statistics would suggest.
 
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#4
#4
I'm gonna go with talent more than scheme because the 3-4 has proven to be a lock down defense when ran correctly. I chose talent but it could also be Sunseri struggling to get his message across. It's not scheme. It's either talent or Sunseri and his message.
 
#5
#5
Wilcox put a decent product on the field with the players we had last season. We were supposed to be upgrading our talent from last year with the JUCO's we brought in. It just seems Sal has screamed our players retarded at this point so much that they just go through the motions like zombies that can run.
 
#6
#6
I don't know that I'd put it squarely on the scheme. The scheme is successful elsewhere.

I also don't think it's the talent. It could be argued that this defense is more talented than what Wilcox had last year, and this defense is light-years worse.

To me, it's more like the lack of ability to teach it with a smattering of the wrong personnel for it. Plus, the whole bad fundamentals thing.
 
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#8
#8
It is purely the defensive coaching staff. We have better players than last year and are much worse. We have hardly been in the 3-4 the past 3 games. Also, playcalling is terrible. As I said in another thread, we get Troy in third and long and we only drop one safety back. Crap like that is why Sal will be watching the game from the booth this week and not calling plays on the field.
 
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#10
#10
I was thinking that it was mostly talent to blame until these 2 thoughts came into my head:

1) We have the worst defense that I have ever seen.

2) It is not possible that we have the worst talent in the country.
 
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#11
#11
XIVolNinjaIX said:
It is purely the defensive coaching staff. We have better players than last year and are much worse. We have hardly been in the 3-4 the past 3 games. Also, playcalling is terrible. As I said in another thread, we get Troy in third and long and we only drop one safety back. Crap like that is why Sal will be watching the game from the booth this week and not calling plays on the field.
Click to expand...

this ^^^^^^^
 
#13
#13
wcm100690 said:
I need a "both" option.
Click to expand...

Of course there are elements of both, but it's more interesting in my opinion to draw a line in the sand and force a decision. Otherwise, everyone will choose the middle. I think it's safe to say that one factor is more meaningful than the other.

I also think that good coaches adapt scheme to talent. This is what Wilcox did, with a helluva lot more success than Sal's having. With Wilcox's "bend but don't break" approach and this extraordinary offense, we are a top 20 team, having beaten MSU and at least one of Georgia, SC, or FL.

One of the several reasons Dooley should be sent packing is the staggeringly awful decision to effect such a defensive transformation this season. This was a stupid, self-destructive risk, and he's going to pay for it with his job and reputation. Add this to the top of the list of patently terrible coaching decisions that also includes (no particular order here):

1) Burning Worley's redshirt in the waning, meaningless moments of last year's Bama rout. Dooley clearly threw a tantrum over Simms's final interception and lost all sight of what was good for the program and, more importantly, Justin Worley, who, if Bray sticks around another year, will have one year of eligibility to make his mark. Thanks, Coach.

2) Allowing Hiestand to force the southpaw James Stone to snap everything right-handed, a move that cost us in last year's FL game and, more importantly, impaired the confidence of a truly great kid and VFL. Kudos to James for fighting back this year and setting himself up for much-deserved NFL payday someday.

3) Running off power back and enthusiastic Vol commit Imani Cross to make room for serial committer Devante Bourque, who turned out to be a crummy player and disturbed quitter presently residing in a Louisiana correctional facility (according to rumors posted here and elsewhere). Meanwhile, Imani is a solid contributor to a Nebraska team likely to end up in the Rose Bowl.

4) Moving Marsalis Teague, a budding Gerald Jones-alike at slot receiver as a freshman, to DB, where he failed miserably and highly publicly. Similar to the situation with James Stone, the issue here is the assault on the confidence and professional prospects of a fine young man. Marsalis deserves and deserved a whole lot better.

I could add the fiasco with Arnett, although I'm not sure there's any way that could have been handled smoothly.

Glad to get all that off my chest! I used to be a "sunshine pumper" urging cooler heads. No more!
 
#14
#14
"Glad to get all that off my chest! I used to be a "sunshine pumper" urging cooler heads. No more."

Good post. Better to pump the truth than sunshine.
 
#15
#15
i think that our CB and safteys our just flat out slow and the loss of B randolph really hurt our D. the d line has been pretty good at stoping the run but if the back gets into our second level we have way too many missed assignments poor tackling terible persuit angles not to mention our blown coverege and consistanly give up the home run some our problems is our coaching staff putting 1 saftey over the top on a 5 Wr set and sal sunseri playing that "bend but dont break D" but when your D breaks every time we need to get more speed and be more aggresive not wait for UF,bama,usc,uga,miss state to smack us in the mouth and go and smack them first somthings gotta be done with our D or we will be the new "vandy"
 
#16
#16
We returned 9 of 11 starters from last years defense. Last year we were ranked 28th nationally while this year we're about 80 or 90 spots lower. I don't think these guys forgot how to play over one off season. It's the coaching.
 
#17
#17
Do you want a "feel good" answer that appease all the people calling for Dooley's head or do you want an educated, legitimate answer? Ill provide the 2nd option and you guys can decypher....

Q -Do we have the personell to be playing better defense?
A - absolutely

Q - Do we have the personell it requires to run THIS defensive system the RIGHT way?
A - Absolutely Not.

Sal and staff could very well compromise thier philosophies and the future developement of our defense to play a more zone based, less aggresive defense and we would probably be playing alot better statistically. But what you do when you resort to that is completely halt the developement and implementation of the system we hope to be perfecting over the next few years. People, the system works when you have the personell to run it, plain and simple. See Alabama, (LSU under Saban), Any John Fox coached team in his pro career, and any Bill Billecheck coached team in his pro career. When we get the right DNA (it requires a certain level of accountability, discipline and character ACROSS THE BOARD to run this system) on the hill, and more than a couple months to install and teach, the defense will improve.

This is not what alot of you want to hear nor will you believe a word of it, but it is indeed the facts. Not a 2 minute idea, not a knee jerk reaction, not a "arm-chair" quarterback perspective.
 
#18
#18
nyc_vol said:
Are our defensive woes more attributable to personnel or scheme?

The kneejerk response is to pile on Sunseri, and, frankly, he and Dooley deserve it.

The more interesting question at this disastrous point is whether competent coaching can conjure up an average or better defense with our existing talent and depth. We'll have a lot of these guys returning next year - as we did this year, sadly - so how likely is it that we can coach up a defense that is better than embarrassing, which, assuming that two of the big three (Bray, Hunter, CP) return, could lead to a pretty interesting team in 2013 and perhaps instant success for a new coach.

I believe that our talent level, even in the defensive backfield, is not as far off as the surreal statistics would suggest.
Click to expand...
You could be right. BTW, why did you guys let the Steelers beat you? Last year when I came up from Tenn I was riding the train from NYC to Secaucus-by Meadowlands Stadium some rowdy Giant fans were on the train and a fan of the team they were playing got on the train. Funny/intense. Were you one of thses guys?:)
 
#19
#19
I think both.

We have some good talent but not any guys who have elite talent.

It seems everyone is really confused. A good defensive coaching staff could adjust scheme and signaling to fit players abilities.
 
#20
#20
utfantilidie said:
You could be right. BTW, why did you guys let the Steelers beat you? Last year when I came up from Tenn I was riding the train from NYC to Secaucus-by Meadowlands Stadium some rowdy Giant fans were on the train and a fan of the team they were playing got on the train. Funny/intense. Were you one of thses guys?:)
Click to expand...

I was traveling home to NYC from Memphis, my hometown, on Sunday and missed the game. Eli was obviously off, as he can occasionally be. These players were affected by Sandy too, which is an excuse no one will mention but is probably valid in this case.

The Giants always lay a few piles during the regular season, before getting it together when it counts. Some of the worst games Eli has played have been in the middle part of eventual Super-Bowl seasons. That's the beauty of a playoff system: a couple of naps at the wheel during the regular season don't necessarily cost the team and its fans ultimate glory.
 
#21
#21
Call it scheme or whatever you want to, but the bottom line, Sal's the problem. It's not talent. We just gave up over 700 yds of offense to Troy. Yeah, they have much more talented players on offense than we have on defense. Yeah right. We had lesser talent last year with Wilcox and our D was 27th in total D. This year with better talent we're around around 112. It's not the talent.
 
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