One more reason to trust Butch....

[DERELICK_MY_VOLS]

I think I remember this being posted here before. You cannot teach talent. You are born with it. Yes you can coach it. But no amount of coaching is going to equal God given talent. I would much rather have God given talent and average coaching than poor talent and great coaching. Now having both is what you need to compete in the SEC.

You can not teach speed.....your either born with it or not.

 

[Miami-Beach-Vol]

You can not teach speed.....your either born with it or not.

Ok I know I shouldn't but.... Is that like Breaking Bad. Your not born with it but if your smart you can make it.

:whistling:

You can tell it is Saturday morning and I am going thru football withdraws.

 

[eVOLve]

So one program that I am comparing us to is a program that was down like we are. That is very rich in tradition. That is one of the top schools in the country. One that has clawed back and is now winning. Florida State. They "down" for an ACC team (7-6). I will not compare their records to ours as we all know the ACC is not comparable to the SEC in FB. What i will compare is their recruiting to ours.....

Their 2010 recruiting class had 10 4 or 5*'s.
2011, they had 15 4 or 5*'s
2012, 13 4 or 5*'s. (Granted this included a Heisman Trophy winner.
2013, 11 4 or 5*'s.

Right now alone CBJ has 17 4 or 5*'s. So, what does this say?? This will take time. He will get it done though. Be patient. He is recruiting out of his mind right now.

Here is one for you....the past 2 years Alabama has had 17 4 or 5*'s. So we must stay on track. Butch is the right guy.

Jimbo had a tough time recruiting the Dline the first year or two but now the beast up front. Butch will get it done in due time.

 

[sjt18]

True... but you have to realize your coaching options are limited by the talent that you can field. A better yardstick would be to look at CBJ on-field coaching pedigree at Cincy/Central Mich.

I actually have at Cincy. The teams he beat while there had around a .400 win %. He never beat a ranked team while coaching there. Before leaving, WVU was the top team in the BE. Jones was 0-2 vs them. He was 2-1 vs L'ville but they were bad both of those years (4-8, 7-6).

I like him. But he nothing he's done in the past proves he will win in the SEC. He just went from Single A to the Major Leagues in one big step. His resume was good enough to get him a look... but only after several others had said no.

One thing is for sure, he has done a much better job than lame kiffin and derrick do-little in the recruiting,

Kiffin's first class built on Fulmer's foundation was not very good. His second class which was finished by Dooley was very good.

S&C,

UT has had several S&C coaches over the past several years. Kiffin's was pretty good. A couple of Dooley's were pretty good. I did not see any grand improvement in that regard this year. Guys losing or gaining weight isn't all that remarkable.

Academic Achievement,

Kiffin made some immediate improvements too. The drop off really occurred when Dooley saw the writing on the wall and quit caring.

and player development categories.

I saw absolutely nothing on the field this year to suggest a dramatic improvement in player development. It was probably better than last year but that was a complete disaster. On the D side of the ball, it was not as good as 2009-2012.

Injuries are also less than CDD which I think we can attribute to S&C as opposed to box checking and off-field incidents plummeting which could be possibly be due to players being too busy studying and training.

Hunter's injury which was the most critical of Dooley's years was not due to anything except him coming down weird. Otherwise, don't speak words you may have to eat. Injuries come and go. They're worse some years than others. Conditioning is a factor but not a huge one. Depth IS a pretty big factor. But the '14 team isn't going to be much deeper. After that, depth depends on recruiting momentum... which depends on winning.

One more plus is the lack of recruiting violations attributed to CBJ...At my count, that stands at zero.

...and ticket sales are up!

Yeah. UT dodged a bullet with Kiffin in that regard. Dooley was clean but not particularly effective as was Fulmer in his latter years.

Fulmer and Dooley believed in UT as a "product" they could "sell" to recruits. They neither sold it well nor sold it to the right "customers".

Kiffin flat out thought that UT was a 2nd class program that he had to sell by cheating and acting a fool. He was in awe of USC... and thought very little of UT as evidenced by his actions.

Jones appears to love and respect UT as a historic program AND to have the will and ability to sell it to recruits. The thing is.... he STILL has to WIN to maintain recruiting momentum. To do that, this staff MUST coach better.

 

[sjt18]

It's always so predictable on volnation. Someone makes a valid point concerning recruiting and talent and what a turn around is taking place regarding improved talent...then countless posters question whether or not our coaches can "coach" and "develop" them. I promise you the game of football is not overly complex. Great athletes make "average" coaches look really good all across the country. (Ex. Fulmer during our hay day). I have NO doubt that when our talent level elevates...so will our production on the field. Some of you need to show a little confidence, a lot more support, and stop looking at things with so much negativity. Optimism is a really great thing! Go Vols!

Optimism is no more realistic than pessimism and vice versa. Hopeful objectivity... is what I try to have.

You are just wrong about the talent-coaching thing and especially when it comes to winning championships while competing in the SEC. It takes both. Average coaches with great athletes will look like average coaches in the SEC... because everyone in the top 2/3's of the SEC has great athletes. Examples of average coaches with great athletes being unable to win championships abound. Petrino, Pinkel, and Franklin have pretty well demonstrated that above average coaching with pretty average athletes can win games... but not championships.

If you want to be a 2nd tier SEC team... then "average" coaching is acceptable... until they're no longer able to get the great athletes. UT does not have homegrown talent in sufficient amounts to maintain a high level of talent without great coaching.

 

[sjt18]

I think I remember this being posted here before. You cannot teach talent. You are born with it. Yes you can coach it. But no amount of coaching is going to equal God given talent. I would much rather have God given talent and average coaching than poor talent and great coaching. Now having both is what you need to compete in the SEC.

The last sentence is correct. The rest... no.

I would MUCH rather see a coach who gets the best out of his players like Pinkel, Franklin, Spurrier, and others than one where you are always disappointed by talented players like Richt, Mack Brown, and Muschamp.

If that's really your attitude then you should not have had any complaints last year. UT had some talented guys who were lots of fun to watch. The coaching stank... but there was some good talent on that team.


Another very direct comparison that you can make as a UT fan is between Cutcliffe and Sanders. Sanders had players with great talent from 99 until 2005. They were extraordinarily frustrating to watch due to poor coaching, development, and discipline.

The two O's Cut coached after coming back weren't as talented overall and especially 07. But they were fun to watch because they were VERY well coached and disciplined... and it didn't take him years to get there either.

 

[1truevol]

Optimism is no more realistic than pessimism and vice versa. Hopeful objectivity... is what I try to have.

You are just wrong about the talent-coaching thing and especially when it comes to winning championships while competing in the SEC. It takes both. Average coaches with great athletes will look like average coaches in the SEC... because everyone in the top 2/3's of the SEC has great athletes. Examples of average coaches with great athletes being unable to win championships abound. Petrino, Pinkel, and Franklin have pretty well demonstrated that above average coaching with pretty average athletes can win games... but not championships.

If you want to be a 2nd tier SEC team... then "average" coaching is acceptable... until they're no longer able to get the great athletes. UT does not have homegrown talent in sufficient amounts to maintain a high level of talent without great coaching.

My friend you are delusional if you think Miles at LSU,Fulmer (when we were loaded), and Chesick at Auburn just to name a few examples are great coaches. They've won championships because of great talent. I personally think "you" are wrong when factoring in just how important superior talent is. Solid coaching is certainly necessary...but if I'm a better athlete than you (bigger,FASTER,stronger)...then it's going to show time and time again throughout the course of a game.

 

[unioncityvol]

I think the OP is on to something. Recruiting just may be the key to getting good players!

Fade I haven't been here long and I stay in the Recruiting Forum, but the few times I've gotten brave enough to venture into the FF I'd have to say you are definitely my favorite poster there by far. Cheers and Its not too late to flip to the good guys lol.

 

[VolFan31]

Sjt18 I understand Butch Jones has not proven everything he needs to at UT. The only thing is people get tired of hearing he can't develop players, based on this year. It seems like people doubt him before he is given a chance.

You talk about his time at Cincinnati and how he never beat a ranked team. You do realize that he was at CINCINNATI!!! He was playing with Cincinnati players and he won 2 conference championships in football there. Big East or not that's a big accomplishment at Cincinnati with Cincinnati players.

As far as the Strength and Conditioning, that mostly takes place in the spring and summer. If you are a fairly well conditioned athlete that lifts weights it is hard to get huge strength gains in a few months or even a year. Guys losing or gaining weight (mostly fat) is about all you can ask for over one off-season. You don't just wake up one day and bench press 100 more pounds overnight. Also I don't remember where this was quoted but a lot of the players said this S&C program was ridiculous and they have never worked so hard in their life.

As far as Academic improvement this year has been an incredible turnaround in one year we are posting some of the best grades we have had since we started tracking them about 10 years ago.

I don't know how you didn't see player development. It didn't show up in the win/loss column, but it was definitely there. Are schedule was ridiculously hard this year even by our standards. Neal was a lot better and ran a lot harder. Michael Palardy (No need to expand on him). The defense had moments where they actually looked like they were playing defense. Which didn't happen much last year. We increased the amount of turnovers we forced. IMO this team gave a lot better effort then in the years past. Worley looked to show improvement throughout the season before his injury. Marquez North improved throughout the season. I'm sure there were more people who showed improvement that I am not listing this is just off the top of my head, which is why it is so jumbled. The thing most people seem to harp on is the Offensive Line. People seem to forget as talented as they are, for whatever reason they have never been able to work together and run block, no matter who the coach has been. I hoped this staff could fix it but in 1 year they couldn't.

You also talked about depth. That we wouldn't have much more this year then last year. I hate to star gaze but we are basically doubling (slightly more or less depending on the recruiting source you use) the amount of 4* talent on this roster in this one class alone. Then throw in a couple of 5*'s, which we had 0 of before this class. Are we as deep as we need to be? No, but we should be significantly deeper then we were this year.

I guess what I am trying to say is nobody knows how this (the coaching staff) will turn out, but give the coaches some time they inherited a mess. In my honest opinion I am hopeful but doubtful that it will be fixed by next year. In all reality this is a situation that is going to take time to fix no matter who is on the coaching staff.

 

[VolFromNashville]

Wait. You mean Coach Jones can recruit? Thought he wasn't going to be able to do that coming from Cincinnati to the SEC?

 

[WesternKyVol]

My friend you are delusional if you think Miles at LSU,Fulmer (when we were loaded), and Chesick at Auburn just to name a few examples are great coaches. They've won championships because of great talent. I personally think "you" are wrong when factoring in just how important superior talent is. Solid coaching is certainly necessary...but if I'm a better athlete than you (bigger,FASTER,stronger)...then it's going to show time and time again throughout the course of a game.

While this is partially true, it points to the fact that Fulmer and Miles had/have good coordinators who can develop players. We don't right now. We just don't.

 

[1truevol]

While this is partially true, it points to the fact that Fulmer and Miles had/have good coordinators who can develop players. We don't right now. We just don't.

Please explain your opinion on this. Neal ran soft his whole career until this year, Lane has shown development, safe to say AJ Johnson has developed quiet nicely, Camron Sutton got better all year long to be a true freshman, there are countless other examples but I'll spare you the time. I mean I have to question your stance on this. Fulmer and Co. did fine while they had superior talent, but that staff did not set the woods on fire in terms of player development. If you point to Peyton...that's a whole different animal. He would've developed in any program because he's a tireless student of the game with unbelievable intangibles. At the end of the day Fulmer's staff was very average in spots. You might point out "chief"...but do you not remember people calling for his head too?

 

[utknate]

I'm to the point right now where I just want CBJ to stockpile talent and keep it. Not too worried about his coaching ability presently because he has a lot of catching up to do.

For these people that compare Mizzou, USCe, etc. to us and say we've recruited better than them but they still win and we don't-- ARE YOU EVEN PAYING ATTENTION?

Go find all the posts that show how many different coaches these players have had, how many players have left the program, how many different schemes these kids have been forced to learn. Stability and familiarity mean a lot in those systems. If you went back and re-ranked our recent classes just by who is even left, we probably averaged around 40-50th.

At this point, I would be completely fine if CBJ turns out to be one of "those coaches like Richt" right now that underachieves with his talent, because that is 100x better than where we are at right now.

WE JUST NEED TALENT

 

[Vols4us]

The coaching staff has to grow and improve just like the players for this program to return to the top. Whether they do or not will play out over the next few years. But with some great - not just good - talent being coming to campus like this class, the program will improve significantly. You can begin winning consistently with a more talented roster. You win championships when the coaching staff gets their jobs done at a championship level.

 

[sjt18]

My friend you are delusional if you think Miles at LSU,Fulmer (when we were loaded), and Chesick at Auburn just to name a few examples are great coaches. They've won championships because of great talent. I personally think "you" are wrong when factoring in just how important superior talent is. Solid coaching is certainly necessary...but if I'm a better athlete than you (bigger,FASTER,stronger)...then it's going to show time and time again throughout the course of a game.

My friend... Miles, Fulmer, and Chizk ALL had great coaches working under them when they won those championships.

You can't win without talent but if it is even in the same ballpark the better coach will be the difference if you are talking about a very good one and an average one.

I have said MANY times that BOTH are critical. WAY too many folks here think that one great class or more "talent" generally is a cure all. It isn't.

But you and many ignore the MOST important factor. You need GREAT coaching at a school like UT without a ton of instate talent to keep getting GREAT out of state talent. The recruits you are talking about who are willing to leave their home states are going to go to winners... not "average" coaches.

 

[Volru]

So one program that I am comparing us to is a program that was down like we are. That is very rich in tradition. That is one of the top schools in the country. One that has clawed back and is now winning. Florida State. They "down" for an ACC team (7-6). I will not compare their records to ours as we all know the ACC is not comparable to the SEC in FB. What i will compare is their recruiting to ours.....

Their 2010 recruiting class had 10 4 or 5*'s.
2011, they had 15 4 or 5*'s
2012, 13 4 or 5*'s. (Granted this included a Heisman Trophy winner.
2013, 11 4 or 5*'s.

Right now alone CBJ has 17 4 or 5*'s. So, what does this say?? This will take time. He will get it done though. Be patient. He is recruiting out of his mind right now.

Here is one for you....the past 2 years Alabama has had 17 4 or 5*'s. So we must stay on track. Butch is the right guy.

I count 21 ranked 4* or higher by Rivals, Scout, or ESPN.

 

[1truevol]

My friend... Miles, Fulmer, and Chizk ALL had great coaches working under them when they won those championships.

You can't win without talent but if it is even in the same ballpark the better coach will be the difference if you are talking about a very good one and an average one.

I have said MANY times that BOTH are critical. WAY too many folks here think that one great class or more "talent" generally is a cure all. It isn't.

But you and many ignore the MOST important factor. You need GREAT coaching at a school like UT without a ton of instate talent to keep getting GREAT out of state talent. The recruits you are talking about who are willing to leave their home states are going to go to winners... not "average" coaches.

I have said MANY times that this incoming class won't be the fix all. In fact I think many of those kid won't make serious SEC noise until their junior year. It takes TIME...2-3 really strong recruiting classes. (Which Jones seems to be capable of signing). He has tremendous people skills which cannot be overstated! He will sell this program and his vision to recruits and their parents. On the field production will happen...just watch. Are you going to be patient enough for that to take place or are you going to be one of posters barking for yet another head coach after two seasons? Like it or not I think we are 2 more years away from being a realistic threat to the big boys in the SEC. I'm betting you feel differently.

 

[sjt18]

I have said MANY times that this incoming class won't be the fix all. In fact I think many of those kid won't make serious SEC noise until their junior year. It takes TIME...2-3 really strong recruiting classes. (Which Jones seems to be capable of signing). He has tremendous people skills which cannot be overstated!

So does Freeze, Malzahn, Sumlin, etc. If he doesn't start winning, the recruiting will dry up.

He will sell this program and his vision to recruits and their parents. On the field production will happen...just watch.

no. It won't just "happen". If these guys aren't better coaches than they showed this year then it won't.

Are you going to be patient enough for that to take place or are you going to be one of posters barking for yet another head coach after two seasons?

Guarantee I won't after two seasons. In fact if it goes badly some will think I've changed sides and become a "sunshine pumper" next year. You have to give them 3 years to prove they can coach. But I am not going to be "patient" either. If he can't show he can win significant games in the first 3 seasons then the likelihood he can ever win at UT goes way, way down. As I stated earlier, those great recruits willing to leave home are going to the "hot" out of state school. He can sell promises and hope right now. That won't sell as much next year and at all the year after. He has to show some results.

Like it or not I think we are 2 more years away from being a realistic threat to the big boys in the SEC. I'm betting you feel differently.

No. Not really. I don't even think it takes that for Jones to prove himself. But he can't repeat this year next year. I think he'd be OK with 6-6 as long as the six losses don't include 4 uncompetitive blowouts and he doesn't lose to another less talented team.

 

[1truevol]

So does Freeze, Malzahn, Sumlin, etc. If he doesn't start winning, the recruiting will dry up.

no. It won't just "happen". If these guys aren't better coaches than they showed this year then it won't.

Guarantee I won't after two seasons. In fact if it goes badly some will think I've changed sides and become a "sunshine pumper" next year. You have to give them 3 years to prove they can coach. But I am not going to be "patient" either. If he can't show he can win significant games in the first 3 seasons then the likelihood he can ever win at UT goes way, way down. As I stated earlier, those great recruits willing to leave home are going to the "hot" out of state school. He can sell promises and hope right now. That won't sell as much next year and at all the year after. He has to show some results.

No. Not really. I don't even think it takes that for Jones to prove himself. But he can't repeat this year next year. I think he'd be OK with 6-6 as long as the six losses don't include 4 uncompetitive blowouts and he doesn't lose to another less talented team.

So simply tell me this. Given this year's average to below average SEC talent...just what has this staff done to make you think they can't coach? I mean we started at ground zero at QB (two of which simply aren't very good), an overrated offensive line and a defense that lacks overall team speed in a big way. So please justify your stance with some concrete examples.

 

[sjt18]

So simply tell me this. Given this year's average to below average SEC talent...just want has this staff done to make you think they can't coach?

It was a 7 win roster with very good coaching. It was a six win roster with average coaching. They won 5.

They did not show improvement over the course of the season. They peaked against USCe then regressed.

They played two back up QB's with numerous practices to have them prepared. They weren't prepared.

Defensive players made the same mental mistakes over and over. Schemes weren't very good. Playcalling on D was unimaginative and poor. Players showed few signs of having been well prepared in the film room (constantly out of position). They flat out looked lost and played slower than they are... after spring, August, and four or five games... that becomes a coaching issue not a player issue. Players played poorly (like McCullers) and weren't benched.

They lost 4 games by more than 28 points for the first time in 50 years or more. They lost to Vandy. They needed a last minute INT to escape South Alabama.

How much more do you want?

I mean we started at ground zero at QB (two of which simply aren't very good), an overrated offensive line and a defense that lacks overall team speed in a big way. So please justify your stance with some concrete examples.

What you just posted is nothing more than excuses. Do you think UT is the only program to replace a starting QB? It is done EVERY YEAR. He at least had two QB's on the roster when he arrived. Dooley arrived with NONE on the roster that had been at UT the year before.

Overrated? The NFL scouts don't seem to think so. More than likely 3 will be drafted if not 4. All are likely to be in an NFL camp sometime between now and next fall.

The D did not have great speed. But they DID have some fast players who CONSISTENTLY played slower than they are. That... is coaching.

 

[1truevol]

It was a 7 win roster with very good coaching. It was a six win roster with average coaching. They won 5.

They did not show improvement over the course of the season. They peaked against USCe then regressed.

They played two back up QB's with numerous practices to have them prepared. They weren't prepared.

Defensive players made the same mental mistakes over and over. Schemes weren't very good. Playcalling on D was unimaginative and poor. Players showed few signs of having been well prepared in the film room (constantly out of position). They flat out looked lost and played slower than they are... after spring, August, and four or five games... that becomes a coaching issue not a player issue. Players played poorly (like McCullers) and weren't benched.

They lost 4 games by more than 28 points for the first time in 50 years or more. They lost to Vandy. They needed a last minute INT to escape South Alabama.

How much more do you want?

What you just posted is nothing more than excuses. Do you think UT is the only program to replace a starting QB? It is done EVERY YEAR. He at least had two QB's on the roster when he arrived. Dooley arrived with NONE on the roster that had been at UT the year before.

Overrated? The NFL scouts don't seem to think so. More than likely 3 will be drafted if not 4. All are likely to be in an NFL camp sometime between now and next fall.

The D did not have great speed. But they DID have some fast players who CONSISTENTLY played slower than they are. That... is coaching.

Nope! Who did we lose to that didn't have better overall talent? I mean they played toe to toe with Georgia (when they were still loaded except for Gurley), upset S. Carolina...good coaching!, they were out athleted by every team they lost to (but you don't want to hear that...that's an excuse right?...no that's a FACT!). The only true swing game was Vandy who survived with late game officiating and the best receiver in the SEC going against a true freshman All SEC corner (good player development!). So I still stand by my assessments.

 

[Big Orange#1]

Nope! Who did we lose to that didn't have better overall talent? I mean they played toe to toe with Georgia (when they were still loaded except for Gurley), upset S. Carolina...good coaching!, they were out athleted by every team they lost to (but you don't want to hear that...that's an excuse right?...no that's a FACT!). The only true swing game was Vandy who survived with late game officiating and the best receiver in the SEC going against a true freshman All SEC corner (good player development!). So I still stand by my assessments.

This is spot on.

 

[Weezer]

So stars really do matter?:crazy:

Stars only matter when they support your arguement, otherwise they are meaningless and you must trust a coach's evaluation.

 

[Weezer]

These coaching vs talent debates are fun. Both are equally important in the SEC of today. This is no longer a league where you can simply out-talent your opposition. You have to bring your coaching "A" game as well. The team with the best talent doesn't win if the opposing coach puts his players in the right position to make plays. Football in 2013, soon to be 2014, is becoming more of a chess game, especially with all the rules being added to "protect" players.

What I find sad is that those of us waiting for Butch to prove his ability on the field are considered "nega-vols" for wanting to see improvement from our team. I find it hard for anyone to field an arguement that a losing season has any proof he is succeeding. I'm not saying he's failed, but how in the hell do you get he's proven anything? I want the guy to succeed, but I'm not going to heap credit on him he has yet to earn. If you can't understand that and feel the need to stick me with a title, then call me nega-butch, or anti-butch, or something that implies I'm not 100% sold on the coach yet. I'm 100% Vol, and the fact that I'm not happy with mediocrity supports that. If you are happy with mediocrity, then IMO, you're the nega-vol. I'm all for giving Butch some time and a chance, but he's not immune to criticism and all those who fall over to make excuses for him are Butch fans, not Vol fans.

Time will allow reality to play out. Either Butch is the guy, and we'll see our team rise again, or he's not the guy, and in a few years we'll have another head coach. People sold out for Kiffin. People sold out for Dooley. Both of those guys turned out not to be the answer. Until he fields some successful teams, why sell out for Butch? Hope is nice. Fruition is much nicer.