Official Global Warming thread (merged)

New Orleans is below sea level, so they built a system of levies around it.

Problem solved.

I think this is how the US will ultimately address any issues from rising CO2 rather than aggressively curbing emissions to stave off the potential issues. I've been stared at like I have two heads when I've said as much in the fine halls of academia. But I believe it is the most likely outcome. I do not see the US passing aggressive GHG legislation given our current political climate.

The problem I have with that is it will only be the nations that are most wealthy that can afford to protect themselves if problems do arise - and in that scenario it is the emissions of those countries that will have caused the issue they have protected themselves from. Less developed nations will not have the resources to protect themselves in all cases, yet they also didn't even contribute to most of the problem.

If that scenario does play out, it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow. I'm sure there'd be aid, but still....
 
I think this is how the US will ultimately address any issues from rising CO2 rather than aggressively curbing emissions to stave off the potential issues. I've been stared at like I have two heads when I've said as much in the fine halls of academia. But I believe it is the most likely outcome. I do not see the US passing aggressive GHG legislation given our current political climate.

The problem I have with that is it will only be the nations that are most wealthy that can afford to protect themselves if problems do arise - and in that scenario it is the emissions of those countries that will have caused the issue they have protected themselves from. Less developed nations will not have the resources to protect themselves in all cases, yet they also didn't even contribute to most of the problem.

If that scenario does play out, it's going to be a bitter pill to swallow. I'm sure there'd be aid, but still....

Hasn't the EPA already taken the ball and started to run with it?

As a scientist, don't you think more conclusive evidence of this theory and a better understanding of the science behind it should be ascertained before taking action domestically?
 
What? If the water levels continue to rise as they have and are projected to, the Maldives will be mostly under water. It's simple math.

I'm not trying to be alarmist about anything, in fact I've made a concerted effort to try and keep politics out of my last couple posts. The scientific fact is that the sea level is steadily rising, low lying areas are the first to see its effects. that's all.

Water World.
 
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Hasn't the EPA already taken the ball and started to run with it?

As a scientist, don't you think more conclusive evidence of this theory and a better understanding of the science behind it should be ascertained before taking action domestically?

It's hard to answer that question as a scientist as its ultimately a policy question. It's safe to say the EPA is still far from forcing the meaningful changes that would have to be made to turn the numbers around on a long-term horizon.

But not to completely dodge your question since technology policy is kind of my hobby....

I am reasonably convinced on the predicted ranges of warming that we'll see over the longer time horizon. I'm much less convinced of what those changes will really mean in terms of real consequences. I've heard general descriptions, and they aren't pretty ... But to me the details get a bit fuzzy in this area. Personally, I would need to see a more concrete justification for the need to act due to these consequences before I would cast my vote.

This may be my own fault. I have always focused my studies on the warming predictions and haven't fully done my homework on the consequences side. It just seems much more soft to me. The convincing studies may be out there and I just haven't seen them ... But as it stands today that is my primary hang up.
 
It's hard to answer that question as a scientist as its ultimately a policy question. It's safe to say the EPA is still far from forcing the meaningful changes that would have to be made to turn the numbers around on a long-term horizon.

But not to completely dodge your question since technology policy is kind of my hobby....

I am reasonably convinced on the predicted ranges of warming that we'll see over the longer time horizon. I'm much less convinced of what those changes will really mean in terms of real consequences. I've heard general descriptions, and they aren't pretty ... But to me the details get a bit fuzzy in this area. Personally, I would need to see a more concrete justification for the need to act due to these consequences before I would cast my vote.

This may be my own fault. I have always focused my studies on the warming predictions and haven't fully done my homework on the consequences side. It just seems much more soft to me. The convincing studies may be out there and I just haven't seen them ... But as it stands today that is my primary hang up.

So how would you define long term success of any policy or laws implemented? What constitutes a long term win for the AGW movement? The symptoms as they are currently defined seen to be an ever moving target.
 
2100, eh? You guys keep pushing these disaster dates back. I guess when the Great Blizzard of 2100 rolls around the entire Northern Hemisphere is covered in snow and ice, we'll have to wait until 2200 before all of the earth's coastlines are under water.

In the 2007 report I think the IPCC predicted 18-59 cm rise by 2100. Of course your guess is as good as theirs. One other tidbit, it is believed the oceans have been rising at a constant pace since the last ice age and will continue to do so until the next ice age.
 
OT: I've rejuvenated a Jon Benet Ramsey thread over on The Pub. Case has always intrigued me. I'd love to hear your comments.
 
So how would you define long term success of any policy or laws implemented? What constitutes a long term win for the AGW movement? The symptoms as they are currently defined seen to be an ever moving target.

the US coal industry has been destroyed, energy prices are at unaffordable levels for all but the wealthiest, and the US economy has essentially ground to a halt

I won't put any words into TT's mouth, but in most cases it seems the ultimate goal of the climate alarmists is the ruination of the US and the world's economy
 
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So how would you define long term success of any policy or laws implemented? What constitutes a long term win for the AGW movement? The symptoms as they are currently defined seen to be an ever moving target.

The fundamental measurable goal of the group that want policy due to AGW concerns is a stabilization of atmospheric CO2 levels at or near current levels. By doing this, they believe the extent of warming limited and the dangerous effects mitigated. The overriding immeasurable goal is to limit the harmful effects associated with AGW.

However, similar to the war on terror (but certainly not exactly the same), when your goal is to prevent something from happening, how do you really define success? If it doesn't happen was it because of your policy or was it never going to happen in the way feared to begin with? Have you really succeeded if it doesn't happen but the policy you implemented was irrelevant to that - most would say that is luck or a waste depending on your perspective, not success.

Of course, the what if looms large. There has been tremendous effort to better understand the effects of CO2 and other GHGs on global temperature. The current best understanding is that the temperature rise corresponding to the CO2 ramp we're on will be significant enough to dramatically affect the world around us on a time scale faster than these changes happen naturally - that is, faster than ecosystems are capable of adapting. This, the scientists who have picked up the policy side want some sort of legislation because their work tells them not having it would be considerably negative.
 
the US coal industry has been destroyed, energy prices are at unaffordable levels for all but the wealthiest, and the US economy has essentially ground to a halt

I won't put any words into TT's mouth, but in most cases it seems the ultimate goal of the climate alarmists is the ruination of the US and the world's economy

I believe it is a mis-characterization of the larger community to say that is the ultimate goal. The scientist advocates believe in the results their work is generating and want action to avoid the negative effects they believe will result. Others have become convinced by their work and similarly want action.

But if I back up and think about it objectively, there are probably three groups.

The first is a group that is driven purely off the science and don't like what they see. They understand it reasonably well, have followed the climate science work, and have come to accept it.

The second group is by far the largest, I think. It is a group that distrusts 'chemicals', is concerned about man's general impact on his environment, views smokestacks as dirty even if they are only belching steam, eat largely organic, etc. They often don't know much of the science, but accept it readily because it easily fits into their worldview. Of course man will have this impact if we don't check it. Because this is the largest group, it often gives the first a bit of a bad name.

The third is by far the smallest in my opinion. There are undoubtedly some who view AGW as yet another way the wealthy world is taking advantage of the underdeveloped. They see policy as a means of slowing the developed and giving the underdeveloped a fighting chance. And - to develop in a 'clean' way, subsidized by the developed world. In the end, they hope this would achieve diminished wealth disparity.

Most members of the third group are also likely members of group 1 or 2. The difference is they are more motivated by wealth redistribution and view avoiding the negative outcomes of warming as a secondary advantage.

I think this angle of the third group is much more prevalent in Europe than the US. But, I still think it is a minority.
 
The current best understanding is that the temperature rise corresponding to the CO2 ramp we're on will be significant enough to dramatically affect the world around us on a time scale faster than these changes happen naturally - that is, faster than ecosystems are capable of adapting. This, the scientists who have picked up the policy side want some sort of legislation because their work tells them not having it would be considerably negative.

But the only problem is there isn't a current temperature rise.
 
But the only problem is there isn't a current temperature rise.

Over the 280 ppm baseline? Yes. Since 2000, or 1990, or 1980? Yes. It is true that the profile has been flat for the last several years - maybe since 2006. If that never starts moving again, then you will have a point.
 
Over the 280 ppm baseline? Yes. Since 2000, or 1990, or 1980? Yes. It is true that the profile has been flat for the last several years - maybe since 2006. If that never starts moving again, then you will have a point.

Yeah, you see the oceans are soaking up all the heat.
 
"The most comprehensive modeling yet carried out on the likelihood of how much hotter the Earth's climate will get in this century shows that without rapid and massive action, the problem will be about twice as severe as previously estimated six years ago - and could be even worse than that.

The study uses the MIT Integrated Global Systems Model, a detailed computer simulation of global economic activity and climate processes that has been developed and refined by the Joint Program on the Science and Policy of Global Change since the early 1990s. The new research involved 400 runs of the model with each run using slight variations in input parameters, selected so that each run has about an equal probability of being correct based on present observations and knowledge. Other research groups have estimated the probabilities of various outcomes, based on variations in the physical response of the climate system itself. But the MIT model is the only one that interactively includes detailed treatment of possible changes in human activities as well - such as the degree of economic growth, with its associated energy use, in different countries.

Study co-author Ronald Prinn, the co-director of the Joint Program and director of MIT's Center for Global Change Science, says that, regarding global warming, it is important "to base our opinions and policies on the peer-reviewed science," he says. And in the peer-reviewed literature, the MIT model, unlike any other, looks in great detail at the effects of economic activity coupled with the effects of atmospheric, oceanic and biological systems. "In that sense, our work is unique," he says.

The new projections, published this month in the American Meteorological Society's Journal of Climate, indicate a median probability of surface warming of 5.2 degrees Celsius by 2100, with a 90% probability range of 3.5 to 7.4 degrees. This can be compared to a median projected increase in the 2003 study of just 2.4 degrees. The difference is caused by several factors rather than any single big change. Among these are improved economic modeling and newer economic data showing less chance of low emissions than had been projected in the earlier scenarios. Other changes include accounting for the past masking of underlying warming by the cooling induced by 20th century volcanoes, and for emissions of soot, which can add to the warming effect. In addition, measurements of deep ocean temperature rises, which enable estimates of how fast heat and carbon dioxide are removed from the atmosphere and transferred to the ocean depths, imply lower transfer rates than previously estimated.

Prinn says these and a variety of other changes based on new measurements and new analyses changed the odds on what could be expected in this century in the "no policy" scenarios - that is, where there are no policies in place that specifically induce reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Overall, the changes "unfortunately largely summed up all in the same direction," he says. "Overall, they stacked up so they caused more projected global warming."


Yeah, your buddy Roger is unbiased. It is amazing how their models tend progressively toward Armageddon. The Center for Global Change Science. They probably wouldn't get nearly as much research dollars if climate change was just due to mother nature.

"There are liars, damn liars, and statisticians".....Mark Twain
 
"In addition, measurements of deep ocean temperature rises, which enable estimates of how fast heat and carbon dioxide are removed from the atmosphere and transferred to the ocean depths, imply lower transfer rates than previously estimated.

Prinn says these and a variety of other changes based on new measurements and new analyses changed the odds on what could be expected in this century in the "no policy" scenarios - that is, where there are no policies in place that specifically induce reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. Overall, the changes "unfortunately largely summed up all in the same direction," he says. "Overall, they stacked up so they caused more projected global warming.

Yeah, but didn't the IPCC just say the "pause" is due to higher transfer rates not lower?
 
Sandvol, I don't know what to tell you. A leading climate scientist is a co-director of a center for studying changes in climate. I do not find this shocking nor do I see how you effectively study joint economic/science aspects without creating a joint program to do so. FWIW, these "centers" basically consist of a director or two who coordinate the research and then a loose association of research labs. It's the same thing for the David H. Koch (yes, one of those Koch's) Integrated Center for Cancer Research across the street from Prinn's and Jacoby's shop.
 
Yeah, but didn't the IPCC just say the "pause" is due to higher transfer rates not lower?

It would seem higher would lead to less atmospheric warming. I'm not sure what period the measurements Prinn was talking about were taken over. But it's safe to say it was likely from before 2008 based on the date of the article. That period may have suggested lower than expected transfer. Perhaps the model has been updated more recently.
 
It would seem higher would lead to less atmospheric warming. I'm not sure what period the measurements Prinn was talking about were taken over. But it's safe to say it was likely from before 2008 based on the date of the article. That period may have suggested lower than expected transfer. Perhaps the model has been updated more recently.

He's talking about some points in the future. And, of course he's predicting lower transfer rates. How? Who knows.
 
It would seem higher would lead to less atmospheric warming. I'm not sure what period the measurements Prinn was talking about were taken over. But it's safe to say it was likely from before 2008 based on the date of the article. That period may have suggested lower than expected transfer. Perhaps the model has been updated more recently.

The model they're using is obviously different than what's happening right now.
 
He's talking about some points in the future. And, of course he's predicting lower transfer rates. How? Who knows.

But those transfer rates used for future predictions were based on measured quantities from past data - or at least that's what I took from your quote.
 
But those transfer rates used for future predictions were based on measured quantities from past data - or at least that's what I took from your quote.

Yes but what members of the current IPCC panel are stating is that they were wrong or possibly wrong in their transfer rate models and they are higher not lower. So why would Prinn use lower transfer rates?
 
Yes but what members of the current IPCC panel are stating is that they were wrong or possibly wrong in their transfer rate models and they are higher not lower. So why would Prinn use lower transfer rates?

That quote was from 2009 - using data that was likely from 2008 and back. I imagine they have or will be updating variables as better or more recent data is available.

The more important question is why did the transfer rate increase in recent years and how can that dynamic be better captured in the models.
 
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