Offensive Scheme Question

#1
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Hayezb

Vols to the Wall
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#1
I've tried staying away from VolNation after the Florida game, so this may have been discussed a million times, but I have a question about our offensive scheme.

First, our OL is awful. No other way to put it. Them being so young and inexperienced is the downfall of our offense. Don't think anybody can argue with that.

The arguing begins and ends on here with Bajakian and the schemes / play calling. I'm not as knowledgable on the Xs and Os as some on here, so this is my question...

Is Butch going out on a limb and taking a risk on results to let the players screw up and learn from the mistakes so we are better off going forward? If Butch and Bajakian changed things up, wouldn't that put us behind for next season? Assuming with a more seasoned OL they go back to running things how they want to.

That's an honest question, I know from coaching D1 soccer that changing formations and tactics is a time consuming process. I've been through something similar coaching, could have changed things up for immediate results but had to look at the bigger picture and take my hits.
 
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#2
#2
From what I gathered, the offense uses some complex blocking schemes and our O linemen are either too inexperienced or not athletic enough to do it properly. I think it is just going to be ugly until they get more experience and depth. Butch appears very stubborn about changing anything which is a head scratcher to me.
 
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#3
#3
I would like to hear the pros and cons of 2 back sets. Seems, in my ignorance, that it would not only relieve pressure on the QB but also give options to pass either left or right to throw out of blitzes.
 
#4
#4
orange parmejohn said:
I would like to hear the pros and cons of 2 back sets. Seems, in my ignorance, that it would not only relieve pressure on the QB but also give options to pass either left or right to throw out of blitzes.
Click to expand...

Again, I'm not an expert, but I've talked to a couple people about this and I would like to see it as well.

Butch being stubborn will either get him fired in 1-3 years, or a statue. Unfortunately we are having to wait and see.
 
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#5
#5
Hayezb said:
I've tried staying away from VolNation after the Florida game, so this may have been discussed a million times, but I have a question about our offensive scheme.

First, our OL is awful. No other way to put it. Them being so young and inexperienced is the downfall of our offense. Don't think anybody can argue with that.

The arguing begins and ends on here with Bajakian and the schemes / play calling. I'm not as knowledgable on the Xs and Os as some on here, so this is my question...

Is Butch going out on a limb and taking a risk on results to let the players screw up and learn from the mistakes so we are better off going forward? If Butch and Bajakian changed things up, wouldn't that put us behind for next season? Assuming with a more seasoned OL they go back to running things how they want to.

That's an honest question, I know from coaching D1 soccer that changing formations and tactics is a time consuming process. I've been through something similar coaching, could have changed things up for immediate results but had to look at the bigger picture and take my hits.
Click to expand...

And I will give an honest answer and you can choose to believe it or not - it's OK.

Yes - he is taking the risk and betting on improvement from the two true freshmen as well as getting Weisman reps as back-up center and not starting guard. Anytime you use one true freshman as a starter you are risking a lot. When you do two you are risking it all. When you place them side by side you throwing all caution to the wind.

Jake could scheme and play call to take the pressure off. Have you see much of it? Slow developing counter run plays, fake zone read plays, jet sweeps, stretch run plays, 5-7 step drop intermediate to long pass plays, etc. Very little help assigned for Thomas on the pass rush from a TE or the RB lining up on his side on passes. Thomas is not getting schooled because he is not improving measurably - still make many of the same mistakes game to game. To be schooled is bad, but not to learn anything from it is worse. Jashon is doing slightly better, but still loses his balance and messes up assignments. So Butch and Jake are saying process is more important and they believe those two guys will improve enough to help them win later in the season and get to a bowl. FWIW and IMO.

However it is time for the Mickey Mouse play calling to stop. We've seen 17 games and so have the opponents. They are only fooling themselves.
 
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#6
#6
I'm sure there are many on here including myself that hope there is some logic/strategy to what we're seeing.

At this point, I honestly don't know.

Did these OL guys not learn something about "trap-blocking", "run-blocking", "pulling guard", "pass-protection" and "pick up a blitzing linebacker" in high school....I mean at some level? (I know, I know...college is different. But we're not switching play calling from Russian to Portuguese....its still football we're talking about).

These guys weren't all playing frisbee for 4 years....they were playing football and probably attending summer camps that I assumed would be teaching them something.

Sooooo, if the "grand offensive scheme" is that complicated, why not wade into it through the shallow end instead of jump in at the deep end? Put a damn FB in the backfield and run the Power-I and keep it simple with occasional passes into the flat or sideline route to keep people honest. Do this until the "pro-set-read-option-?-?" offense is working.
 
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#7
#7
Unfortunately no scheme can be ran successfully without a decent line. I do think we should have run more screens, a shuffle pass, and maybe a trick play or two, such as reverse with pig Howard throwing to a wr. Worley is the best qb we have, but he has a bad trait that is dangerous with this ol. He has no pocket awareness and is a slow decision maker, thus a lot of those sacks are on him. But who do you put in there? Peterman gets nervous and botches simple handoffs and qb center exchanges. What we see on the field now will be what we see our last game of the season IMO. We are gonna live and die with what we got. I think losing Pearson hurt Worley a lot. He seemed to be the security blanket. He, when healthy, also forced defenses to not have the ability to double up north. I hope we have all our weapons vs ole miss, maybe then our offense will take several steps forward. The defense needs to just keep on keeping on.
 
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#8
#8
orange parmejohn said:
I would like to hear the pros and cons of 2 back sets. Seems, in my ignorance, that it would not only relieve pressure on the QB but also give options to pass either left or right to throw out of blitzes.
Click to expand...

I personally like two back sets with a pass catching TE split to the slot because one RB can lead the D's flow away from the second on counters on the fake and be a lead blocker or fake up the middle on stretch plays, which makes the plays more effective. The TE can step back screen the back side or can pick off an LB or safety over the middle. It obviously helps to chip with an RB and give Worley easier check downs releases and quicker swing and screen passes. The D simply has to honor both sides of the field because if they load up on one side or the other and guess wrong a big offensive play can happen. In obvious passing downs they are not all that helpful as a true slot or TE may be more effective.

FWIW IMO.
 
#9
#9
utvols74 said:
I'm sure there are many on here including myself that hope there is some logic/strategy to what we're seeing.

At this point, I honestly don't know.

Did these OL guys not learn something about "trap-blocking", "run-blocking", "pulling guard", "pass-protection" and "pick up a blitzing linebacker" in high school....I mean at some level? (I know, I know...college is different. But we're not switching play calling from Russian to Portuguese....its still football we're talking about).

These guys weren't all playing frisbee for 4 years....they were playing football and probably attending summer camps that I assumed would be teaching them something.

Sooooo, if the "grand offensive scheme" is that complicated, why not wade into it through the shallow end instead of jump in at the deep end? Put a damn FB in the backfield and run the Power-I and keep it simple with occasional passes into the flat or sideline route to keep people honest. Do this until the "pro-set-read-option-?-?" offense is working.
Click to expand...
Its not really that simple. You can't just change your entire offensive scheme on a dime and expect results. They better make some adjustments, though, or they will get Worley killed.
 
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#10
#10
Vols4us said:
I personally like two back sets with a pass catching TE split to the slot because one RB can lead the D's flow away from the second on counters on the fake and be a lead blocker or fake up the middle on stretch plays, which makes the plays more effective. The TE can step back screen the back side or can pick off an LB or safety over the middle. It obviously helps to chip with an RB and give Worley easier check downs releases and quicker swing and screen passes. The D simply has to honor both sides of the field because if they load up on one side or the other and guess wrong a big offensive play can happen. In obvious passing downs they are not all that helpful as a true slot or TE may be more effective.

FWIW IMO.
Click to expand...
Just seems to be tons of things an offense can do from that set. I know you lose a WR but the pass rush is already taking them out of many plays.
 
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#12
#12
I believe that op is right, Butch could stick a TE or RB on the right side of the line to help Thomas block. Butch and the oc do not do that to much because they have a scheme and want to run it.
 
#13
#13
"I" formation, easiest formation to block from. Block from the inside out when passing and straight up man on man when running with a big fullback leading the way to clear out lbs. This formation can make make average players look like world beaters. It's a little like how UT's current offense looks like a peewee team vs a D1 school.
 
#15
#15
Butch is not stubborn...it's the only thing he knows which has created success for him. If you do the same routine for years and then suddenly you come across a road block, you think "that's just a strange fluke"...

But if you had come to this road block earlier, you start to figure out that your routine is not that great after all..

That's the main problem. Same Staff, Same concept, Same Results for YEARS...until now.
 
#17
#17
In 2010 we were in a similar situation. We had a young offensive line, 3 freshmen, a sophomore and a senior.

Obviously Chaney and Bajakian have nothing in common offensively.

If you folks will recall Matt Sims was running for his life and people talked about how "gutty" he was to take all those hits. By the time Bray got into the picture James Stone was at center, ya'll remember the snapping issues we had? Everyone blamed Tauren Poole

I think the bulk of that line ended up in the NFL. So did Poole.

As for changing up the scheme, as the OP said, it takes time. There are only so many reps/practices and how you spend that time is critical, especially during the season. In 2010, they played musical chairs trying to find the right combination. It seems in 2014, they've decided to try to get one group up to speed.

For the folks wanting a full back or a two back system...they have had Lane and Hurd in together at times...we don't have a full back on the roster, maybe the King kid started out at full back but he's a LB'er now I believe. They have attempted to use TE's as H-Backs at times too.

I've watched some of the Cincinnati film from when Jones and Co. were there and it seems clear that they have more to the system than they have implemented here so far and I reckon that's because we're so young across the board.

Off topic a bit...I've watched the UF game several times now, the OL had issues but it wasn't only them. The WR's have trouble when they are pressed. There's a reason Pig Howard was the leading WR versus UF.

We will see it again, stop the run (we averaged 1 yard per carry versus UF). Press the WR's so it takes them longer to get into the route and gives the pass rush an extra second to get to Worley. Until we can make them pay, we're going to keep seeing it.
 
#18
#18
vol66 said:
In 2010 we were in a similar situation. We had a young offensive line, 3 freshmen, a sophomore and a senior.

Obviously Chaney and Bajakian have nothing in common offensively.

If you folks will recall Matt Sims was running for his life and people talked about how "gutty" he was to take all those hits. By the time Bray got into the picture James Stone was at center, ya'll remember the snapping issues we had? Everyone blamed Tauren Poole

I think the bulk of that line ended up in the NFL. So did Poole.

As for changing up the scheme, as the OP said, it takes time. There are only so many reps/practices and how you spend that time is critical, especially during the season. In 2010, they played musical chairs trying to find the right combination. It seems in 2014, they've decided to try to get one group up to speed.

For the folks wanting a full back or a two back system...they have had Lane and Hurd in together at times...we don't have a full back on the roster, maybe the King kid started out at full back but he's a LB'er now I believe. They have attempted to use TE's as H-Backs at times too.

I've watched some of the Cincinnati film from when Jones and Co. were there and it seems clear that they have more to the system than they have implemented here so far and I reckon that's because we're so young across the board.

Off topic a bit...I've watched the UF game several times now, the OL had issues but it wasn't only them. The WR's have trouble when they are pressed. There's a reason Pig Howard was the leading WR versus UF.

We will see it again, stop the run (we averaged 1 yard per carry versus UF). Press the WR's so it takes them longer to get into the route and gives the pass rush an extra second to get to Worley. Until we can make them pay, we're going to keep seeing it.
Click to expand...

But I think you said it. It's quite possible that maybe our scheme can't really work in SEC against quality opponents and coaches week after week. We did lose to Vandy last year, and TN did play Cincy back in the day.
 
#19
#19
Dougie_D said:
But I think you said it. It's quite possible that maybe our scheme can't really work in SEC against quality opponents and coaches week after week. We did lose to Vandy last year, and TN did play Cincy back in the day.
Click to expand...

Ole Miss, A&M, Auburn are running similar schemes, zone blocking schemes, gap schemes, Malzahn's favorite power play is very similar to ours...the point of my post is the schemes don't matter if you don't have the Jimmy's and Joe's or they lack size and experience, especially in this league.

My only beef with what we're doing offensively is that part of the philosophy is being up tempo and I don't feel like we're going at the pace of the other teams I mentioned above, though I haven't studied it...it just doesn't feel up tempo to me, maybe I'm wrong though.
 
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