Offensive Line

#1
VolfaninAF

VolfaninAF

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#1
I have read in so many threads that we can't even gain 1 yard rushing when needed and I have not been able to find through searching all of the threads about the offensive line play. With a veteran offensive line that is supposed to be the best in the nation why are our running schemes not tailored to it and why are we not able to just run it down the throats of all the opponents we face? Would you point your fingers at coaching for this or is the offensive line just not getting the job done?
 
#2
#2
Its not the best line in the nation. Its a solid o-line. We have been guilty of trying too be to balanced in our playcalling. Obviously running the ball is the best thing we do. They should scale back the offense and take the game out of crompton's hands.
 
#3
#3
The line was regarded as one of the best in the nation for two reasons:
1) Allowing 4 sacks last year, and
2) Having pretty much everyone carrying over from last year

The major problems are this. The "best in the nation" tag came because of statistical idiocy; people looked at the number and said "Wow, four sacks! They must be great!" and went with that. It overlooked all the components of the offense that went into creating that obscenely low number. The second part is the unspoken assumption that experience from the prior year automatically carries over and will improve even further.

As I pointed out in another thread, the offensive line play from about 2003 to the present has been horrifying. To quote those posts:

The real problems the last few years have been on the offensive line. I can't believe the technique that's being used; if it's being taught that way, then fire the coach, and if it's not being taught that way, then either get new players in there or else devote more practice time to it.

Most linemen coming out of high school have been able to strictly rely on their brute strength to be able to block, which doesn't fly at the college level. And yet it seems like the last five years has just been "forget technique, let's focus 100% on the schemes", to the detriment of the offense as a whole.

There's a lot of what I refer to as "the grab and steer". What it involves is the OL grabbing the DL under the armpits and more or less steering him one way or another, leg drive optional (and rarely taken).

What it totally overlooks is the fact that, in the running game, a stalemate goes to the defense. The purpose of run blocking is to open up holes for one or more backs to get through and provide them the most room possible. A good DL coach will teach his guys that there's nothing wrong with a stalemate; in fact, it should happen in roughly 80% of the line battles over the span of a game. That's an enormous benefit to the defense; it allows LBs to fly around in the run game and make plays all over the place.

The grab and steer results in a ton of stalemates, because with that "technique" it's literally the best that can result. If the best that can happen is something that favors the defense, how on earth can it continue to be taught and accepted?

Good line play has three components:
1) Violent punch -- it should rock a DL back on contact
2) Work to extension -- same logic as an RB stiff-arming a defender; it uses all the large muscles of the arms and provides separation
3) Leg drive -- Because, after all, you're trying to move someone from a place he doesn't want to vacate

Until there is a coach at UT that teaches and continually hammers on these points, the offense will struggle no matter who's calling the plays.
 
#4
#4
Ohio Vol - great tutorial; regardless of which team you or I support. Glad you're not coaching the Vols. Don't send 'em your resume. :D
 
#5
#5
UAfossil said:
Ohio Vol - great tutorial; regardless of which team you or I support. Glad you're not coaching the Vols. Don't send 'em your resume. :D
Click to expand...
The day will come when tennessee has a competent coach again. Until then enjoy.
 
#6
#6
CarterVol - You may find this shocking, but I actually have tremendous respect for Tennessee football. And when our teams play in a few weeks, I do NOT think it's a "given" that Bama wins.
 
#7
#7
Ohiovol has it right. I knew going into the season our line was not what so many thought it would be. Pass blocking last year consisted of holding your block for all of two seconds most of the time.

Our O line had some pretty significant problems last Saturday. Even if you don't pay them much attention it should have been obvious by the number of times they were called for penalties. A veteran line does not get that many calls against them if there is not something wrong. I think this line is actually better than average but not great.
 
#8
#8
UAfossil said:
CarterVol - You may find this shocking, but I actually have tremendous respect for Tennessee football. And when our teams play in a few weeks, I do NOT think it's a "given" that Bama wins.
Click to expand...

After watching the way our respective teams execute I can't help but think it is a very likely loss for us, probable even.
 
#9
#9
Ohio Vol said:
The line was regarded as one of the best in the nation for two reasons:
1) Allowing 4 sacks last year, and
2) Having pretty much everyone carrying over from last year

The major problems are this. The "best in the nation" tag came because of statistical idiocy; people looked at the number and said "Wow, four sacks! They must be great!" and went with that. It overlooked all the components of the offense that went into creating that obscenely low number. The second part is the unspoken assumption that experience from the prior year automatically carries over and will improve even further.

As I pointed out in another thread, the offensive line play from about 2003 to the present has been horrifying. To quote those posts:

The real problems the last few years have been on the offensive line. I can't believe the technique that's being used; if it's being taught that way, then fire the coach, and if it's not being taught that way, then either get new players in there or else devote more practice time to it.

Most linemen coming out of high school have been able to strictly rely on their brute strength to be able to block, which doesn't fly at the college level. And yet it seems like the last five years has just been "forget technique, let's focus 100% on the schemes", to the detriment of the offense as a whole.

There's a lot of what I refer to as "the grab and steer". What it involves is the OL grabbing the DL under the armpits and more or less steering him one way or another, leg drive optional (and rarely taken).

What it totally overlooks is the fact that, in the running game, a stalemate goes to the defense. The purpose of run blocking is to open up holes for one or more backs to get through and provide them the most room possible. A good DL coach will teach his guys that there's nothing wrong with a stalemate; in fact, it should happen in roughly 80% of the line battles over the span of a game. That's an enormous benefit to the defense; it allows LBs to fly around in the run game and make plays all over the place.

The grab and steer results in a ton of stalemates, because with that "technique" it's literally the best that can result. If the best that can happen is something that favors the defense, how on earth can it continue to be taught and accepted?

Good line play has three components:
1) Violent punch -- it should rock a DL back on contact
2) Work to extension -- same logic as an RB stiff-arming a defender; it uses all the large muscles of the arms and provides separation
3) Leg drive -- Because, after all, you're trying to move someone from a place he doesn't want to vacate

Until there is a coach at UT that teaches and continually hammers on these points, the offense will struggle no matter who's calling the plays.
Click to expand...

Have you taught OL at the highschool or college level? Very good post. I think our strength and conditioning comes into play as well. The OL and DL in the 90's looked completely different with our old S&C coach. I can't remember his name and don't feel like looking it up.

UAfossil said:
CarterVol - You may find this shocking, but I actually have tremendous respect for Tennessee football. And when our teams play in a few weeks, I do NOT think it's a "given" that Bama wins.
Click to expand...


I have a lot of respect for Bama too and do not have the hatred for Bama that a lot of UT fans have. That probably has a lot to do with the last 15 years being lopsided but I do remember getting spanked regularly by Bama as a kid and hating Gene Stallings(lots of respect for him as I got older). We are very similar programs with classy(for the most part) fan bases and legendary coaches and players. Lots of great coaches got their start at both programs as either players or assistant coaches. You can't help but be impressed with history of both programs and their importance to football.

I still want to kill you guys next month and get payback for last year.
 
#10
#10
ohio vol, nice post, agree about the statistics being used solely as the measuring stick without taking in to account the design of the rest of the offense. that was a bit misleading, considering the offense was designed around getting the ball out of the qb's hands as quickly as possible, and as few times as we had 3-6 second pocket for routes down field last year.

the thing i did buy in to was that having them all back for another year should translate in to better productivity.

i've been sorely disappointed in the O line thus far, though they've been ok, they've not lived up to the billing as, forget best in nation, one of the best in the conf. or the team strength.
 
#11
#11
gainesvol82 said:
Have you taught OL at the highschool or college level? Very good post. I think our strength and conditioning comes into play as well. The OL and DL in the 90's looked completely different with our old S&C coach. I can't remember his name and don't feel like looking it up.
Click to expand...

I have at the HS level and have numerous players in D-1 football. With any luck, I'm two years away from having my first NFL player. My background is primarily in the option offense, so there certainly is a premium on agility and quickness as well as being able to move from the first level to the second level.

And you're thinking of the late John Stucky as the S&C coach of the 1990s.
 
#12
#12
I've seen all our games in person, yes UCLA too. Watch the offensive line, and you'll see one (1) offensive lineman that can turn his guy. The rest get beat on practically every play. Watch our guys double team, it's really not pretty. They get beat 5 times out of six. It's a wonder that we gain anything on the ground. This O line is badly overrated. Our backs are the reason we don't get sacked...watch them this saturday and you'll see what I mean.
 
#13
#13
gainesvol -
"...payback for last year"??! C'mon man. You guys ate our lunch for the past decade or so. Ancient history aside, it seems to me we still owe you.

Your point about the history of our two programs is spot on. I scan VolNation every few days and occasionally come across a posting that's castigating the Vol program from a historical perspective. I find myself rising to the bait and posting a response defending the Vols program. Gotta' quit doing that.

Hope y'all beat the Barn this weekend.
 
#14
#14
Ohio Vol said:
The line was regarded as one of the best in the nation for two reasons:
1) Allowing 4 sacks last year, and
2) Having pretty much everyone carrying over from last year

The major problems are this. The "best in the nation" tag came because of statistical idiocy; people looked at the number and said "Wow, four sacks! They must be great!" and went with that. It overlooked all the components of the offense that went into creating that obscenely low number. The second part is the unspoken assumption that experience from the prior year automatically carries over and will improve even further.

As I pointed out in another thread, the offensive line play from about 2003 to the present has been horrifying. To quote those posts:

The real problems the last few years have been on the offensive line. I can't believe the technique that's being used; if it's being taught that way, then fire the coach, and if it's not being taught that way, then either get new players in there or else devote more practice time to it.

Most linemen coming out of high school have been able to strictly rely on their brute strength to be able to block, which doesn't fly at the college level. And yet it seems like the last five years has just been "forget technique, let's focus 100% on the schemes", to the detriment of the offense as a whole.

There's a lot of what I refer to as "the grab and steer". What it involves is the OL grabbing the DL under the armpits and more or less steering him one way or another, leg drive optional (and rarely taken).

What it totally overlooks is the fact that, in the running game, a stalemate goes to the defense. The purpose of run blocking is to open up holes for one or more backs to get through and provide them the most room possible. A good DL coach will teach his guys that there's nothing wrong with a stalemate; in fact, it should happen in roughly 80% of the line battles over the span of a game. That's an enormous benefit to the defense; it allows LBs to fly around in the run game and make plays all over the place.

The grab and steer results in a ton of stalemates, because with that "technique" it's literally the best that can result. If the best that can happen is something that favors the defense, how on earth can it continue to be taught and accepted?

Good line play has three components:
1) Violent punch -- it should rock a DL back on contact
2) Work to extension -- same logic as an RB stiff-arming a defender; it uses all the large muscles of the arms and provides separation
3) Leg drive -- Because, after all, you're trying to move someone from a place he doesn't want to vacate

Until there is a coach at UT that teaches and continually hammers on these points, the offense will struggle no matter who's calling the plays.
Click to expand...

That's why the "stab and grab" is taught.

Hell yes.

Hire this man today.
 
#15
#15
Ohio Vol said:
I have at the HS level and have numerous players in D-1 football. With any luck, I'm two years away from having my first NFL player. My background is primarily in the option offense, so there certainly is a premium on agility and quickness as well as being able to move from the first level to the second level.

And you're thinking of the late John Stucky as the S&C coach of the 1990s.
Click to expand...


What do you think of Clawson's offense as it relates to the o-line? Specifically, do you believe that asking the lineman to flip sides is a mistake for this line?
 
#16
#16
Ohio Vol said:
The line was regarded as one of the best in the nation for two reasons:
1) Allowing 4 sacks last year, and
2) Having pretty much everyone carrying over from last year

The major problems are this. The "best in the nation" tag came because of statistical idiocy; people looked at the number and said "Wow, four sacks! They must be great!" and went with that. It overlooked all the components of the offense that went into creating that obscenely low number. The second part is the unspoken assumption that experience from the prior year automatically carries over and will improve even further.

As I pointed out in another thread, the offensive line play from about 2003 to the present has been horrifying. To quote those posts:

The real problems the last few years have been on the offensive line. I can't believe the technique that's being used; if it's being taught that way, then fire the coach, and if it's not being taught that way, then either get new players in there or else devote more practice time to it.

Most linemen coming out of high school have been able to strictly rely on their brute strength to be able to block, which doesn't fly at the college level. And yet it seems like the last five years has just been "forget technique, let's focus 100% on the schemes", to the detriment of the offense as a whole.

There's a lot of what I refer to as "the grab and steer". What it involves is the OL grabbing the DL under the armpits and more or less steering him one way or another, leg drive optional (and rarely taken).

What it totally overlooks is the fact that, in the running game, a stalemate goes to the defense. The purpose of run blocking is to open up holes for one or more backs to get through and provide them the most room possible. A good DL coach will teach his guys that there's nothing wrong with a stalemate; in fact, it should happen in roughly 80% of the line battles over the span of a game. That's an enormous benefit to the defense; it allows LBs to fly around in the run game and make plays all over the place.

The grab and steer results in a ton of stalemates, because with that "technique" it's literally the best that can result. If the best that can happen is something that favors the defense, how on earth can it continue to be taught and accepted?

Good line play has three components:
1) Violent punch -- it should rock a DL back on contact
2) Work to extension -- same logic as an RB stiff-arming a defender; it uses all the large muscles of the arms and provides separation
3) Leg drive -- Because, after all, you're trying to move someone from a place he doesn't want to vacate

Until there is a coach at UT that teaches and continually hammers on these points, the offense will struggle no matter who's calling the plays.
Click to expand...

Great post Ohio Vol, I always enjoy reading your insight. Check your PM.
 
#17
#17
sk vol said:
What do you think of Clawson's offense as it relates to the o-line? Specifically, do you believe that asking the lineman to flip sides is a mistake for this line?
Click to expand...

Although my own preference is to keep a corps of five together across the front in their own positions, there are times where flipping sides and even positions may work out.

Really, it depends on how the OC views the line. Since I'm not familiar with the intricacies of Clawson's offensive history, I can't really comment on how he handles the present team.

And if family members stop scheduling weddings during football season, I'll be able to watch a lot more games.:blink:
 
#19
#19
I will say this, if you teach a group of linemen how you want them to play, and then bring in a new OC and change that philosophy and ask them to learn every position over the coarse of a year there are going to be problems.
 
#20
#20
Maybe our OL is nervous playing with Crompton behind them, thinking he might chop block them at anytime. He has already tackled Foster this year and almost took Coopers hip out on a handoff last week. I think I would be nervous on the field with him.
 
#22
#22
tennisguy said:
Maybe our OL is nervous playing with Crompton behind them, thinking he might chop block them at anytime. He has already tackled Foster this year and almost took Coopers hip out on a handoff last week. I think I would be nervous on the field with him.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised.

I once had a guy who refused to play PAT and FG teams after the kicker drilled him with a pretty bad kick in practice. Keep in mind that the standard things is, when the ball is snapped, for the linemen to step to the inside and stay low. That's what he did, and the kick hit him squarely in the taint.
 
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