Offensive Line

#51
#51
Why is Wisconsin always a good to great team when the recruiting sites average them in the mid to low twenties or worse every year. It's because they develop oline players
 
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#52
#52
I'm not sold on Mahoney, but yesterday was a no-win situation. We had a 265 pound true Freshman at Right Tackle....3, 2nd year players and a Junior with 2 bad ankles.

Kendrick, Weisman, Robertson, Hall were all out. 4 of our best 5. NOBODY can absorb that amount of attrition up front and not have issues. Beginning of the season, we were trying to redshirt Jones and Tatum, Richmond got benched, etc. I do not remember a season with this many injuries across the board to this many key players. I have a sinking feeling 2016 will be the season of "what could have been".

I only hope we get several of these guys back after the bye week back to close to 100%.
 
#53
#53
CountVolcula said:
Ok guys and gals

I have seen post after post about Debord, Shoop, and play calling, but we must not overlook the actual cause of all our problems

The offensive line

Now, when I say this, I'm not pointing fingers at the players. I'm not sure they are to blame and this is why


Most of these guys have been blocking on a line for some time now. Some have been playing football since Junior High or Middle School. Its not like these guys just learned how to block their first day of practice here. Techniques, footwork, leverage are taught at all levels. Its how you gauge a recruit to fit your system.

So, why has the offensive line not improved over a course of 4 years?

Some will say injuries. Yes, to some extent, injuries will effect the cohesiveness of a unit. Guys tend to learn how each other play and adapt. A new player in the line will disrupt this. However, every offensive line player should know one another, practice as a unit, and when one has to replace another for either a breather or an injury, you shouldnt be able to tell the difference. Somewhere, the development of the offensive line is failing

With the failures in the offensive line, come the issues with the other aspects of the team. It causes poor QB play with lack of protection and poor pass blocking. Forcing the QB to throw before the route is set. It causes poor play by RBs by not opening holes, etc. It causes more 3 and outs and drives stall

Now, this relates to the defenses also. More the offensive line fails at their job to sustain drives and score, the more strain you put on your defense. The defense spends way to much time on the field, takes more snaps than necessary, and eventually wears down. Over the course of several games, this will result in more injuries and poor play because the defense is worn thin.

A poor offensive line also hamstrings the OC on what calls he can call in certain down and distances. On 3rd and long, our OL cannot protect long enough to go down the field. That and along with Dobbs' inaccuracy, is the reason Debord calls so many screens and short passes.

Butch's main focus should lay with the recruitment of OL and coaching in this position. Its pretty obvious to even the most apologetic fan, that Mahoney isnt cutting it as an offensive line coach. Its been our Achilles Heal for going on 4 years and hasnt improved. A change here is more necessary than any position coach on our team. It must be done

Offensive line is the key to a better team and its the most important. No team succeeds without a great offensive or defensive line.

Just my 2¢
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FINALLY! Good to see there actually are still some people on this board that truly know the game of football. It was refreshing to read this, and couldn't possibly agree more with every word I read. Our vast army of arm-chair QB's and all their infinite wisdom will point fingers and blame every coach and every position, proclaiming how bad "they suck", without having the first clue of what it takes to make ANY of it work.
Did you play ball at any level past high school?
 
#54
#54
Certifiedhands11 said:
FINALLY! Good to see there actually are still some people on this board that truly know the game of football. It was refreshing to read this, and couldn't possibly agree more with every word I read. Our vast army of arm-chair QB's and all their infinite wisdom will point fingers and blame every coach and every position, proclaiming how bad "they suck", without having the first clue of what it takes to make ANY of it work.
Did you play ball at any level past high school?
Click to expand...

No
 
#55
#55
ConMan said:
Why is Wisconsin always a good to great team when the recruiting sites average them in the mid to low twenties or worse every year. It's because they develop oline players
Click to expand...

This is Wisconsin's Offensive line 2-deep this year. They only list 7 guys for the 2-deep.

LT1: Ryan Ramcyzk RS Jr JUCO NR Wis
LT2:Brett Connors RS So NR Wis
LG1: Michael Deiter RS So 5.5 Ohio
LG2A: Micah Kapoi RS So 5.3 Hawaii
LG2B: Jon Dietzen RS Fr 5.6 Wis
C1: Brett Connors RS So NR Wis
C2: Micah Kapoi RS So 5.3 Hawaii
RG1: Beau Benzschawel (TE) RS So 5.5 Wis
RG2: Micah Kapoi RS So 5.3 Hawaii
RT1: Jacob Maxwell RS So 5.3 Wis
RT2: Brett Connors RS So NR Wis

Most are from Wisconsin. One from Hawaii and one from Ohio. The JUCO guy went to JUCO in Wisconsin then signed with the badgers, took a redshirt the first year, and is starting this year.
 
#56
#56
BigOrangeTrain said:
Question, are you a football recuiter with years of experience in recruiting in the SEC?
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Nope just a fan, so back off with the smart ass comments. Everyone on this site gave Dooley hell for not recruiting linemen now CBJ has done the same thing. When UT isn't battling it out with superior teams for players it says all you need to know about CBJ and his recruiting, not good enough in the SEC
 
#57
#57
Oline coaching is the primary problem. We can't recruit and can't develop and you must have both. I am sure coach Mo is a great guy
 
#60
#60
FWIW I always felt that Larry Scott was brought in as more than a TE coach. Coached OL at USF. Believed that timetable was set for after a couple of grooming seasons under DeBord. Maybe that hypothetical scenario gets scrapped altogether and an outside improvement gets paid or maybe it happens earlier. All JMO.
 
#61
#61
orangeluvr said:
Freshmen lining up against 22/23 year old men who are more experienced,more mature physically and mentally is the biggest problem. Due to injuries that's exactly what happened vs bammer.
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Been pretty much all year atleast until 2nd half
 
#62
#62
volinSmyrna said:
I'm not sold on Mahoney, but yesterday was a no-win situation. We had a 265 pound true Freshman at Right Tackle....3, 2nd year players and a Junior with 2 bad ankles.

Kendrick, Weisman, Robertson, Hall were all out. 4 of our best 5. NOBODY can absorb that amount of attrition up front and not have issues. Beginning of the season, we were trying to redshirt Jones and Tatum, Richmond got benched, etc. I do not remember a season with this many injuries across the board to this many key players. I have a sinking feeling 2016 will be the season of "what could have been".

I only hope we get several of these guys back after the bye week back to close to 100%.
Click to expand...

I'm not ever going to bash coaches since I'm not at practices, conditioning etc, but anytime a player group has this many injuries someone needs to find the root cause and eliminate it. Did they skip workouts? Are they using the wrong techniques? Are the plays putting them into vulnerable positions? This is a definite trend, imo.
 
#63
#63
Spot on count. Our offense is so anemic and has been since butch took over. After four years, it should have improved.

I agree, the core issue to fix is the line. We have got to put our Oline as a priority and once that improves, then we can work on the rest.
 
#64
#64
4 Things:

1. DeBord needs to be gone.
2. Mahoney needs to be gone.
3. Offense needs to be changed.
4. New strength coach needs to be gone.
 
#65
#65
Vol1962 said:
4 Things:

1. DeBord needs to be gone.
2. Mahoney needs to be gone.
3. Offense needs to be changed.
4. New strength coach needs to be gone.
Click to expand...
I like this. Only problem is this is Butch's offense, doubt he's going to scrap it all together..
 
#66
#66
VOL-uh-tile said:
Phil looks at the players we have objectively, takes into account their composite recruiting ranks, looks at offensive numbers generated the year before and assumes some level of improvement for the next year considering we had 4 returning OL starters. Like I said, the blame falls squarely on Mahoney. Injuries exacerbate the issue, but just made us go from bad to worse. Profootballfocus has our OL as 181st out of 210 graded OLs (including FCS).
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I have no idea if you'll see this but can you link the Pro Football Focus numbers? I've been looking for those for some time.

EDIT: Never mind, found them. https://www.profootballfocus.com/college-alabama-pass-rush-primed-for-huge-day-against-tennessee/
 
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#67
#67
I was taught that in situations where you can't recruit (pre-college sports) you have to run schemes that fit your players. A college coach can/should recruit players to fit their schemes.

However, sometimes you have to adjust your schemes when unforeseen circumstances occur. I think we are there.

To that point, against Bama we ran Hurd and Kamara in the wishbone in the first series with success. As I recall, we didn't see that again. It was different and more suited to our situation, worked, and we abandoned it.
 
#68
#68
volinSmyrna said:
I'm not sold on Mahoney, but yesterday was a no-win situation. We had a 265 pound true Freshman at Right Tackle....3, 2nd year players and a Junior with 2 bad ankles.

Kendrick, Weisman, Robertson, Hall were all out. 4 of our best 5. NOBODY can absorb that amount of attrition up front and not have issues. Beginning of the season, we were trying to redshirt Jones and Tatum, Richmond got benched, etc. I do not remember a season with this many injuries across the board to this many key players. I have a sinking feeling 2016 will be the season of "what could have been".

I only hope we get several of these guys back after the bye week back to close to 100%.
Click to expand...

All 5 will start at SC this group plays well together and will be pretty healthy given this week off and getting back together Monday on the field to get back to where they were in the first 3 SEC games.
Hopefully they are all healthy when we play Bama in the championship game I don't know we can beat them but it will be a decent game.
 
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#69
#69
Vols4ever said:
After 4 years, even the starting OL is barely serviceable (pre injury). Frankly, Dobbs made it look much better last year with his running abilities. This year, Dobbs is not running so much and incompetent OL shows up. Mahoney should be gone end of this year.
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If most would recall our OL last year had almost zero experience, Kerbyson became serviceable as a LT out of sheer willpower and in hopes Richmond would emerge this year. For whatever reason, our OL has just not been very tough this year, when last year, Bama admitted they were pretty tough. Something other than injuries happened as our OL guys are not physical this year IMO.
 
#70
#70
CountVolcula said:
Ok guys and gals

I have seen post after post about Debord, Shoop, and play calling, but we must not overlook the actual cause of all our problems

The offensive line

Now, when I say this, I'm not pointing fingers at the players. I'm not sure they are to blame and this is why


Most of these guys have been blocking on a line for some time now. Some have been playing football since Junior High or Middle School. Its not like these guys just learned how to block their first day of practice here. Techniques, footwork, leverage are taught at all levels. Its how you gauge a recruit to fit your system.

So, why has the offensive line not improved over a course of 4 years?

Some will say injuries. Yes, to some extent, injuries will effect the cohesiveness of a unit. Guys tend to learn how each other play and adapt. A new player in the line will disrupt this. However, every offensive line player should know one another, practice as a unit, and when one has to replace another for either a breather or an injury, you shouldnt be able to tell the difference. Somewhere, the development of the offensive line is failing

With the failures in the offensive line, come the issues with the other aspects of the team. It causes poor QB play with lack of protection and poor pass blocking. Forcing the QB to throw before the route is set. It causes poor play by RBs by not opening holes, etc. It causes more 3 and outs and drives stall

Now, this relates to the defenses also. More the offensive line fails at their job to sustain drives and score, the more strain you put on your defense. The defense spends way to much time on the field, takes more snaps than necessary, and eventually wears down. Over the course of several games, this will result in more injuries and poor play because the defense is worn thin.

A poor offensive line also hamstrings the OC on what calls he can call in certain down and distances. On 3rd and long, our OL cannot protect long enough to go down the field. That and along with Dobbs' inaccuracy, is the reason Debord calls so many screens and short passes.

Butch's main focus should lay with the recruitment of OL and coaching in this position. Its pretty obvious to even the most apologetic fan, that Mahoney isnt cutting it as an offensive line coach. Its been our Achilles Heal for going on 4 years and hasnt improved. A change here is more necessary than any position coach on our team. It must be done

Offensive line is the key to a better team and its the most important. No team succeeds without a great offensive or defensive line.

Just my 2¢
Click to expand...

I have always looked at an OL unit much like a pack of dogs. No, I am not calling our line a bunch of dogs, but every successful line group I have followed closely has an alpha male among the starting five.

You can see it in huddles or timeouts, or as they meet on the bench as they talk. When things go bad, the alpha pulls them together. Even if he is hurt, you can see him firing up the unit in street clothes.

Only guy I have seen do that all season is a backup Quarterback. What is wrong with this picture?

That is my 20 cents. Inflation.
 
#71
#71
WestGaVol said:
We've got 1 OL and 2 LB commits so far, and we wonder why we have no line or linebackers. Based on what we put on field sat we need 5 of each and OL needs to be motorgraders, not gonna beat the Bama's of the world with Atheletic guys need some that can't be pushed around so easily
Click to expand...

Typically, the more stars they have, the later they commit. What do you want ... early quantity or later quality? :question:
 
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