Off Topic: Super Bowl LI Thread

#552
#552
Boca Vol said:
No Sh&t! I hope no fan of Manning watches Super Bowl 48 with such a microscopic viewpoint.
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Im a fan of manning. Brady is better. Not sure how people get that saying Brady is the best ever equates to manning sucks.

All i know is the last time the Broncos won the SB, followed by a Falcons loss in the SB....the Titans went the following year. Whoo whoo Titan Up Butches, SB 52!!
 
#553
#553
Brady
Manning
Elway/montana
montana/elway
favre

if having a conversation about the GOAT, it's not like being 2nd on that list is swiss cheese. i hate the patriots and tom brady. but it's hard to debate at this point. they just came back socring 31 unanswered points, won the 1st OT superbowl while trailing by 4 scores. and he did all that with his arm, in the 2nd half. clutch has to count, and that doesn't mean Manning wasn't. but it doesnt' get any more clutch than what happened on sunday night.

i just puked in my mouth a little bit.
 
#555
#555
Volview said:
For being so great...Brady was kind of average the 1st half.
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He was. Now a lot of that had to do with the Atl pass rush, but Brady certainly could have played better. However, look at the last two super bowls, here are his numbers for the 4th quarters and overtime period:

34-41
370 yds
3 td's
zero picks
qb rating 121.6

GOAT
 
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#556
#556
Place any great you like be it Manning, Rodgers, etc. into their system and you get the same results. Period.
 
#559
#559
jakez4ut said:
Brady
Manning
Elway/montana
montana/elway
favre

if having a conversation about the GOAT, it's not like being 2nd on that list is swiss cheese. i hate the patriots and tom brady. but it's hard to debate at this point. they just came back socring 31 unanswered points, won the 1st OT superbowl while trailing by 4 scores. and he did all that with his arm, in the 2nd half. clutch has to count, and that doesn't mean Manning wasn't. but it doesnt' get any more clutch than what happened on sunday night.

i just puked in my mouth a little bit.
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Looks like an accurate list there Jake, that looks spot on to me. Somewhere fairly soon after those 5 names, I'd throw in Dan Marino, Steve Young and Roger Staubach. But imho, the 5 you listed have definitely separated themselves as the 5 best all-time, with Brady leading the way.
 
#564
#564
givem6 said:
So Brady makes everyone else look so good? Please lol
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i am one to think that every time they've had to play a different qb over hte last 15 years or so, they haven't missed a beat. so the system is what it is, and i think that favors Brady.

but as to making everyone else look good...yeah, he definitely does. it's not like he spent his entire career throwing to Jerry Rice or handing it to Emmet Smith.

at this point, with the longevity of his career, the multiple Superbowl appearances, multiple AFC title appearances, he's had different supporting casts all along the way.

great system, being run by a great QB....it's all about the process, and if you have it defined, set the expectation, get the effort and execution required, the results don't change.

it's really impressive that they've done this w/out any other core pieces except Brady and Bellicek.

stop makin me defend them. please.:banghead2:
 
#565
#565
KBVol said:
Looks like an accurate list there Jake, that looks spot on to me. Somewhere fairly soon after those 5 names, I'd throw in Dan Marino, Steve Young and Roger Staubach. But imho, the 5 you listed have definitely separated themselves as the 5 best all-time, with Brady leading the way.
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yeah, after that 5 you could go a lot of different ways...johnny u has to be in there, staubach, troy, terry, steve, jim kelly etc....but as i see it, that's the top tier.

the 2nd tier you could rearrange however you want.
 
#567
#567
Arguing who the greatest is at any sport is kind of pointless.

There are far too many factors to consider: coaches, team mates, eras, etc.

Basing it on championships is even more pointless for team sports. That would make Bill Russell the NBA GOAT.
 
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#569
#569
jakez4ut said:
i am one to think that every time they've had to play a different qb over hte last 15 years or so, they haven't missed a beat. so the system is what it is, and i think that favors Brady.

but as to making everyone else look good...yeah, he definitely does. it's not like he spent his entire career throwing to Jerry Rice or handing it to Emmet Smith.

at this point, with the longevity of his career, the multiple Superbowl appearances, multiple AFC title appearances, he's had different supporting casts all along the way.

great system, being run by a great QB....it's all about the process, and if you have it defined, set the expectation, get the effort and execution required, the results don't change.

it's really impressive that they've done this w/out any other core pieces except Brady and Bellicek.

stop makin me defend them. please.:banghead2:
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that's my point...that the system has a lot to do with it as well. Is Brady great? Yes...but so is the system...put it this way no one qb or player by himself is so great that they can take "average players" and win at the rate they do...them average WR would never get open for him to throw the ball to but yet they was schooling them db's lol
 
#570
#570
jakez4ut said:
how is this point enhancing your argument exactly? honest question.
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Basically saying that the whole system has to be there to get the results. If the gameplan, discipline of the whole team, etc. was not as good you don't win 5 SB. If them "average" WR can't get open then he can't throw the ball.
 
#572
#572
givem6 said:
Basically saying that the whole system has to be there to get the results. If the gameplan, discipline of the whole team, etc. was not as good you don't win 5 SB. If them "average" WR can't get open then he can't throw the ball.
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it's not like he's been throwing to 6'5" super freak athletes with catch radius's of 5' for 16 years.

julian eddleman, amendolah, wes welker, troy brown etc....who else would make those guys house hold names?

and i'm not disagreeing about the system, in fact, i agree a lot with that. but lots of teams have good systems.

this is the only one that's ever gone to 7 super bowls and won 5, and been to what, 10 AFC title games or something?

it's not all system.
 
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#573
#573
givem6 said:
So Brady is so good he would have won 5 SB with that soft azz Colt defense?
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no, he wouldn't. and i don't think anyone else would have won 5 superbowls in the NE system.

it's a once in a generation perfect fit of player, coach, system.....
 
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#574
#574
givem6 said:
So Brady makes everyone else look so good? Please lol
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lol? LOL? Are you serious?

Now that I have the time, let's start with where this debate began, so I can be consistent here.

When the debate was Brady vs. Manning, I used to look at the playoffs not because Manning had one ring (at the time), but because there were so many seasons where a Manning team was one and done from the playoffs.

I think that argument isn't as strong since Peyton got to two more Super Bowls and got one more ring.

What I also found in Brady's favor is the lack of help on the offensive side of the ball throughout his career and the blatant disregard and strategy the Patriots have used to not even bother to upgrade skill positions. These are the Patriot draft picks at skill positions since 2001.

2001
Jabari Holloway (TE) 4th
Arther Love (TE) 4th
2002
Daniel Graham (TE) 1st
Deion Branch (WR) 2nd
Antwoine Womack (RB) 7th
David Givens (WR) 7th
2003
Bethel Johnson (WR) 2nd
Spencer Nead (TE) 7th
2004
Ben Watson (TE) 1st
Cedric Cobbs (RB) 4th
P.K. Sam (WR) 5th
2005
Andy Stokes (TE) 7th
2006
Laurence Maroney (RB) 1st
Chad Jackson (WR) 2nd
Dave Thomas (TE) 3rd
Garrett Mills (RB) 4th
2007
Justise Hairston (RB) 6th
2008
Matt Slater (WR) 5th
2009
Brandon Tate (WR) 3rd
Julian Edelman (WR) 7th
2010
Gronk (TE) 2nd
Taylor Price (WR) 3rd
Aaron Hernandez (TE) 4th
2011
Shane Vereen (RB) 2nd
Steven Ridley (RB) 3rd
Lee Smith (TE) 5th
2012
Jeremy Ebert (WR) 7th
2013
Aaron Dobson (WR) 2nd
Josh Boyce (WR) 4th
2014
James White (RB) 4th
Jeremy Gallon (WR) 7th
2015
AJ Derby (TE) 6th
2016
Malcolm Mitchell (WR) 4th
Devin Lucien (WR) 7th

Notice how as Brady has gotten older, the less they have tried to get him some weapons. One WR has been drafted higher than the 3rd round since the 2007 draft. Only one WR/RB was drafted in the 1st round....Laurence Maroney. Most of this list is a total and complete epic fail. And don't look to free agency. Even Randy Moss they got on the cheap because of his stint in Oakland.

So, yeah, Brady makes everyone better. In 2006, Brady got the Patriots to the AFC title game and their leading WR in yards and receptions was Reche Caldwell. Reche Caldwell.

I also don't find it to be a coincidence that the first time they gave him a dominant #1 WR, he threw for a then NFL record 50 TD's.

But, that's the main thing that seems to be in dispute here. How good is his supporting cast? Whatever you think about Edelman and Welker, it can not be denied that they are limited as to where they can line up and what routes they can run.

The Patriots don't run fly patterns. they don't run deep posts. Their WR's don't run seem routes. I can go on and on. And defenses know that too. When they get someone open deep, it's a play that has to trick a defense and get them to bite on something in order to get a WR free.

Now, I'm sorry. No QB who has ever lived in throwing to Chris Hogan 9 times for 180 yards in a conference title game and then throwing to James White 14 times for 110 yards and a TD in the Super Bowl.....except Tom Brady.

JMO
 
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