New Hybrid Technology

#1
rjd970

rjd970

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#1
Came across two articles today that got me thinking.

The first is about a fully electric Nissan car that gets 100 miles on a single charge and retails for about the price of a Civic:

Nissan rolls out electric car at new headquarters - Yahoo! News

The payback time on this is zero because you are getting a low end car that uses zero gas. Effectively, you are saving money from day one by not buying gas or having upkeep (oil changes, transmission upkeep, etc). The downside is you only get 100 miles on a single charge, there is no gas power back-up, and it takes 8 hours to recharge at 220 volts.

Then I came across this article:

Technology Review: Battery Breakthrough?

The new wave seems to be heading to ultracapacitors which act like batteries, but charge much, much quicker (minutes instead of hours needed to charge the system) and are more efficient in taking in charge (such as with regenerative braking and what not). The downside to capacitors is they (on average) store about 25 times less energy per pound.



So here is my idea, why not make a battery-capacitor hybrid running an electric motor, utilizing the advantages of both systems? Have the large storage capacity of the battery charge the more efficient capacitor. To make it even better, add in a small gas tank that runs a generator to charge the capacitor and battery when needed on long trips. Basically it is a layered power supply...use the capacitor as the primary energy source because it can charge and re-charge quickly and efficiently, tap into the battery when the capacitor needs a charge, and finally use the gas to re-charge the battery.

This solves the problem of battery life (I'm talking lithium batteries) because it is now being used at a fraction of the time because the capacitor is primary and being charged by braking and when the car is plugged in. If we are measuring in mpg of gas...this system could be upwards of 300-400 mpg, and the green environmental nuts will have to find something else to complain about.
 
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#3
#3
T-TownVol said:
stimulus funds in 3,2,1...........
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Jokes aside, this is all off-the-shelf technology that could be developed quickly and cheaply. As far as I understand, the theory behind this is sound.

Maybe this is the engineer in me, but if I was retired or had the time, I would buy a small crappy pick-up, throw in an electric motor, and build this power system in the bed to see if I could get it to work.
 
#4
#4
rjd970 said:
Jokes aside, this is all off-the-shelf technology that could be developed quickly and cheaply. As far as I understand, the theory behind this is sound.

Maybe this is the engineer in me, but if I was retired or had the time, I would buy a small crappy pick-up, throw in an electric motor, and build this power system in the bed to see if I could get it to work.
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What about the maintenance on the car itself, because it is electric I am positive the mechanic bills on this thing would be astronomical. It would seem to me that something like this would take five or ten production years to iron out all the bugs. Would I be incorrect with these beliefs?
 
#7
#7
KB5252 said:
What about the maintenance on the car itself, because it is electric I am positive the mechanic bills on this thing would be astronomical. It would seem to me that something like this would take five or ten production years to iron out all the bugs. Would I be incorrect with these beliefs?
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unlike GM, the Japanese have a pretty good track record when it comes to bringing an all-new vehicle to the market. All electric vehicles have been around for over a decade, so if there were any mechanical kinks to work out, I'm pretty sure Nissan will have them addressed by the time the Leaf hits American showrooms.
 
#8
#8
KB5252 said:
What about the maintenance on the car itself, because it is electric I am positive the mechanic bills on this thing would be astronomical. It would seem to me that something like this would take five or ten production years to iron out all the bugs. Would I be incorrect with these beliefs?
Click to expand...

The only maintenance would be tire changes and battery replacements, and if the batteries are lithium they degrade by usage not time so with a "layerd" power supply its life gets extended. Electric motors of this type can easily get 100,000 miles, completely maintenance free...not even so much as an oil change or new air filter. Because the motor is electric, there is no transmission of any sort and no brake pads if regenerative braking is used.

Its all assumptions at this point because the technology is so new, but I would expect the maintenance costs associated with this type vehicle to be far less than one that has an internal combustion system. Beleive it or not, this design is far less complicated than what we have now with gas engines and transmissions.
 
#9
#9
considering 70% of all electical production comes from coal i'm not sure an electric car fits team obama's agenda
 
#10
#10
MG1968 said:
unlike GM, the Japanese have a pretty good track record when it comes to bringing an all-new vehicle to the market. All electric vehicles have been around for over a decade, so if there were any mechanical kinks to work out, I'm pretty sure Nissan will have them addressed by the time the Leaf hits American showrooms.
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It makes you wonder if GM could be right there with them if they invested in R&D with the money they spend bending to union bosses.
 
#11
#11
droski said:
considering 70% of all electical production comes from coal i'm not sure an electric car fits team obama's agenda
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I don't care about the green, enviromental aspect of it, most of those people are loony...I am looking strictly at the efficiency and alternative aspect of the technology.
 
#12
#12
rjd970 said:
The only maintenance would be tire changes and battery replacements, and if the batteries are lithium they degrade by usage not time so with a "layerd" power supply its life gets extended. Electric motors of this type can easily get 100,000 miles, completely maintenance free...not even so much as an oil change or new air filter. Because the motor is electric, there is no transmission of any sort and no brake pads if regenerative braking is used.

Its all assumptions at this point because the technology is so new, but I would expect the maintenance costs associated with this type vehicle to be far less than one that has an internal combustion system. Beleive it or not, this design is far less complicated than what we have now with gas engines and transmissions.
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100,000 miles for an engine is a pretty short lifespan. This may be practical for a short distance comuter but if you are driving any distance this car wouldn't last more than 4 year or so. Gas engines offer a much longer engine life.

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood your post?
 
#13
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KB5252 said:
100,000 miles for an engine is a pretty short lifespan. This may be practical for a short distance comuter but if you are driving any distance this car wouldn't last more than 4 year or so. Gas engines offer a much longer engine life.

Edit: Maybe I misunderstood your post?
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Possibly...I was addressing the maintenance of the engine, not the life. I would think an electric motor would have a total life equal to, maybe even better, than an internal combustion engine. Parts may need to be replace, but again, you are looking to make at least 100K miles before a tune-up is needed. You don't change/add oil in an internal combustion engine and it degrades it's life significantly.
 
#14
#14
I think electic cars are the future. The battery technology is advancing very quickly, a lot of research being spent on better batteries for cellphones/electronics. There is carry-over to the electric batteries for cars. Some day, we will all plug are cars into outlets at home once a week, to recharge them for 15 minutes for a couple of dollars.
 
#16
#16
oklavol said:
Nuclear Power is the energy future.
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not under this administration and never while groups like the Sierra Club can find sympathetic, activist judges that are willing to place injunctions halting the construction of nuclear plants.
 
#17
#17
oklavol said:
I think electic cars are the future. The battery technology is advancing very quickly, a lot of research being spent on better batteries for cellphones/electronics. There is carry-over to the electric batteries for cars. Some day, we will all plug are cars into outlets at home once a week, to recharge them for 15 minutes for a couple of dollars.
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There is alot of industry that wouldn't like to see that happen.
 
#18
#18
Capacitors need AC power to actually be charged. If you want to charge the capacitors with a battery, you would need an inverter.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
 
#19
#19
Rasputin_Vol said:
Capacitors need AC power to actually be charged. If you want to charge the capacitors with a battery, you would need an inverter.
Posted via VolNation Mobile
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Yeah, I have been thinking about this and doing some research on it. I am seriously considering playing with the numbers and building a scaled model of this power system too see if it could work. I have been looking for a hobby since I finished grad school and this could be a prime candidate.

...besides, my wife supports anything that keeps me from pestering her.
 
#20
#20
rjd970 said:
There is alot of industry that wouldn't like to see that happen.
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The Oil Industry would be #1.



And just curious, what kind of heater does this vehicle have for when the weather is cold?
 
#21
#21
I would love one of these compact cars that gets great mileage! But I have a problem, I'm 6-6 and weigh about 330. I DON'T FIT in one! I guess I could always take the front seat out and cut a hole in the roof, but that would mess my hair up!
 
#22
#22
oklavol said:
Nuclear Power is the energy future.
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yes but NatGas is the energy of tomorrow

I wouldnt mind buying something like this for local driving especially if they made a pickup version and if Obama threw in a few grand too
 
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#23
#23
MWR said:
And just curious, what kind of heater does this vehicle have for when the weather is cold?
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I'm not sure how much heat is generated with these electrical engines. I know that with an internal combustion engine you are only achieving about 30% efficiency with the fuel you put in, the vast majority of the other 70% is lost through heat.

Anyway, the power system is the long pole in the tent here, the heater can come later. If one can demonstrate a significant increase in efficiency then a heater, AC, etc...can be designed around that. Even if the system can achieve half of the output compared to what you are putting in, it is a significant breakthrough and opens doors to other methods to regulate environmental conditions in the cab.

Also, from what I understand these capacitors are more fragile and don't do well in temperature extremes, so some kind of regulatory mechanism would need to be designed for it as well.
 
#24
#24
2011 Chevrolet Volt First Drive - Car News - Car and Driver

an interesting article on the Volt.

What isn’t yet clear is how the Volt will behave when the battery is depleted and the gasoline engine kicks in to provide more juice. In this so-called range-extending mode, the electric motor will be limited to the power provided by the 1.4-liter four-cylinder engine under the hood. The gas engine is never used to charge the battery; the engine turns a generator that directly feeds power to the electric motor. If the engine is revving at 2000 rpm and making 25 hp, the electric motor will be able to make only 25 hp. If more power is needed, the gasoline engine could conceivably run at its power peak at a very high rpm. Taking the point further, if the gas engine is rated for only 100 hp (our estimate of its power output), the 149-hp electric motor will be able to make only 100 hp. The upshot: The Volt will be quicker running on battery power than it will be when the gas engine is providing the electricity.
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I continue to stand by my assertion that the Volt is going to be a disaster for GM.
 
#25
#25
rjd970 said:
I'm not sure how much heat is generated with these electrical engines. I know that with an internal combustion engine you are only achieving about 30% efficiency with the fuel you put in, the vast majority of the other 70% is lost through heat.

Anyway, the power system is the long pole in the tent here, the heater can come later. If one can demonstrate a significant increase in efficiency then a heater, AC, etc...can be designed around that. Even if the system can achieve half of the output compared to what you are putting in, it is a significant breakthrough and opens doors to other methods to regulate environmental conditions in the cab.

Also, from what I understand these capacitors are more fragile and don't do well in temperature extremes, so some kind of regulatory mechanism would need to be designed for it as well.
Click to expand...

Whatever heat an electric motor generates, it is not close to what internal combustion engines produce.

Maybe these cars will be like the SR-72 blackbird, go so fast they can use friction with air for heat. :)
 
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