'21 NC DT Payton Page (Clemson commit)

keenobserver

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I had my fingers crossed for this one. I know it's frustrating for the staff because they put alot into recruiting him. PP will be an NFL 3-4 NT. We're still relatively young at the position, but we lack what looks like to be a huge impact player for the future like we do at other positions

NT will be a significant priority in the 2022 class.

Emerson-good player
Garland-serviceable backup
Simmons-unknown
K. Harris-beginning to look like a miss

Interesting to see if O. Thomas or Solomon gets some reps at NT
 
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butchna

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I had my fingers crossed for this one. I know it's frustrating for the staff because they put alot into recruiting him. PP will be an NFL 3-4 NT. We're still relatively young at the position, but we lack what looks like to be a huge impact player for the future like we do at other positions

NT will be a significant priority in the 2022 class.

Emerson-good player
Garland-serviceable backup
Simmons-unknown
K. Harris-beginning to look like a miss

Interesting to see if O. Thomas or Solomon gets some reps at NT
Thomas is a DE and Solomon is a DT...so no.
 
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keenobserver

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Then why would you put them at nose?
Sometimes when there is a lack of quality depth, coaches adapt for a fear of talent drop off.....Pruitt talks about this all the time, getting the best 11 on the field.

For instance, Emerson goes down (God forbid I know). Are we better off inserting Senior Matthew Butler at DT(E) and sliding 315lb Solomon inside? The easy answer for most fans is no bc Garland has experience there. I personally don't think KG is or will be a great player, but like I said, serviceable.

With Gooden gone, I anticipate we'll see at least 1 guy penciled in as a DT/DE get a few reps at NT. NOT as a starter or perhaps even as the primary backup, but a plug and play guy.

Payton Page would have solved any concern I have....
 
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johnfnkelly

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There were some concerns raised at around post #185. Whether Rocker hurt or not in this case the concern has followed him from his previous stops. It's actually funny to read comments from his fan club. Some that are consistently wrong.

'21 - NC DT Payton Page (Clemson commit)
UGA fans hated Rocker for his lazy recruiting. I now see why.
 

butchna

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Sometimes when there is a lack of quality depth, coaches adapt for a fear of talent drop off.....Pruitt talks about this all the time, getting the best 11 on the field.

For instance, Emerson goes down (God forbid I know). Are we better off inserting Senior Matthew Butler at DT(E) and sliding 315lb Solomon inside? The easy answer for most fans is no bc Garland has experience there. I personally don't think KG is or will be a great player, but like I said, serviceable.

With Gooden gone, I anticipate we'll see at least 1 guy penciled in as a DT/DE get a few reps at NT. NOT as a starter or perhaps even as the primary backup, but a plug and play guy.

Payton Page would have solved any concern I have....
In a year’s time? Emerson hadn’t played football in any capacity in two years...really had to work at walking after that devastating injury. Gooden went down and he had to step up basically learning the intricacies of the position on the go. He did that in spades before human limits hit him and that wall that players experience slowed him down somewhat. Garland did more than fill in as a “serviceable” option... If anything he’s 1B and both are legitimate talents. Gooden was destined for reps behind Solomon imo demonstrating further our almost 4 deep rotation at DL. There’s no plug and play at fireplug for Thomas or Solomon...they don’t have the measurables for that position. Simmons does...that’s your reps and plug and play. I saw Page as more of a DT...at least initially in order to play. Definitely didn’t see him as our last hope and savior at NT. A top flight NT will be a priority in the 22 class if another option doesn’t present for 21
 

keenobserver

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In a year’s time? Emerson hadn’t played football in any capacity in two years...really had to work at walking after that devastating injury. Gooden went down and he had to step up basically learning the intricacies of the position on the go. He did that in spades before human limits hit him and that wall that players experience slowed him down somewhat. Garland did more than fill in as a “serviceable” option... If anything he’s 1B and both are legitimate talents. Gooden was destined for reps behind Solomon imo demonstrating further our almost 4 deep rotation at DL. There’s no plug and play at fireplug for Thomas or Solomon...they don’t have the measurables for that position. Simmons does...that’s your reps and plug and play. I saw Page as more of a DT...at least initially in order to play. Definitely didn’t see him as our last hope and savior at NT. A top flight NT will be a priority in the 22 class if another option doesn’t present for 21
100% agree on Simmons. I didnt mention him much because his lack of experience, but I do agree he will definitely see more reps this year bc he is the 3-4 NT prototype. How many will obviously depend on his conditioning and consistency.

Completely disagree with your assessment on position measurables and the assertion that Garland is as good as Emerson. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there because I mostly base my assessment on players as I see, which is obviously subjective. Emerson packs much more of an initial punch, has better feet, and is much more relentless. While Garland is capable of being a good player, he plays too high, doesn't bend well, and saw some success with much less reps. Neither Emerson, Garland, or Gooden are ideal 3-4 NTs. All are more suited for 4-3 DTs at 300lbs, which is what we've been playing alot of the last few years.....I believe out of necessity, in part, because the absence of an impact 3-4 NT. Again, its arguably the most important position with odd front defenses (also hard to find).

IMO, if a healthy Gooden had returned this season, you'd see a steady combination of Emerson and Gooden splitting reps at NT in our base, and see very little of Garland.

With our current roster, Solomon absolutely could be a viable option to rep at NT if needed. I even think Middleton could if a dire circumstance presented itself....Solomon is listed as 15lb heavier than both Garland and Emerson. NT's must be space eaters and command a double team in the 3-4 scheme to allow LBs to make plays. Think Raekwon Davis, Payton Page, Vince Wilfork, type bodies....Generally speaking, if we're playing good defense, NT aren't recording a high volume of stats.
 
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butchna

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100% agree on Simmons. I didnt mention him much because his lack of experience, but I do agree he will definitely see more reps this year bc he is the 3-4 NT prototype. How many will obviously depend on his conditioning and consistency.

Completely disagree with your assessment on position measurables and the assertion that Garland is as good as Emerson. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there because I mostly base my assessment on players as I see, which is obviously subjective. Emerson packs much more of an initial punch, has better feet, and is much more relentless. While Garland is capable of being a good player, he plays too high, doesn't bend well, and saw some success with much less reps. Neither Emerson, Garland, or Gooden are ideal 3-4 NTs. All are more suited for 4-3 DTs at 300lbs, which is what we've been playing alot of the last few years.....I believe out of necessity, in part, because the absence of an impact 3-4 NT. Again, its arguably the most important position with odd front defenses (also hard to find).

IMO, if a healthy Gooden had returned this season, you'd see a steady combination of Emerson and Gooden splitting reps at NT in our base, and see very little of Garland.

With our current roster, Solomon absolutely could be a viable option to rep at NT if needed. I even think Middleton could..Solomon is listed as 15lb heavier than both Garland and Emerson. NT's must be space eaters and command a double team in the 3-4 scheme to allow LBs to make plays. Think Raekwon Davis, Payton Page, Vince Wilfork, type bodies....Generally speaking, if we're playing good defense, NT aren't recording a high volume of stats.
I’ll go with the agree to disagree part...tho you mischaracterized my post about Emerson and Garland. I think Emerson will get better and better, but Garland isn’t a huge step down. Both were in their first seasons manning the position and it’s foolhardy to state that last year is their final product. No way Pruitt puts Solomon, Middleton or Thomas at nose. You can slap as much weight as you wish on them...they don’t have the base.
 
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keenobserver

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I’ll go with the agree to disagree part...tho you mischaracterized my post about Emerson and Garland. I think Emerson will get better and better, but Garland isn’t a huge step down. Both were in their first seasons manning the position and it’s foolhardy to state that last year is their final product. No way Pruitt puts Solomon, Middleton or Thomas at nose. You can slap as much weight as you wish on them...they don’t have the base.
Saying someone 6'5" 315 " doesnt have the base" compared to someone 6'3" 300 is just as foolhardy as saying its impossible that there is no way in the world the larger of the two could see reps at nose tackle in an emergency situation in a base 3-4 defense.

Gooden being dismissed isnt the end of the world, but our interior would have been better with him. Emerson now is by far the best option at the position. Simmons could be a reliable, but hasnt proven himself yet. Garland has proven he can contribute and is reliable, but lacks the overall talent and athleticism to be a major impact player at the position. Knowing Pruitts past, he will never sacrifice talent on the field for the notion of, "wait, he's not listed at that position". When Bituli went down, he was reluctant to trot Peterson out there even though Crouch played OLB. Crouch is more talented and the risk of a drop off was too much. Too many examples to list, but I'll let it go.
 

butchna

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Saying someone 6'5" 315 " doesnt have the base" compared to someone 6'3" 300 is just as foolhardy as saying its impossible that there is no way in the world the larger of the two could see reps at nose tackle in an emergency situation in a base 3-4 defense.

Gooden being dismissed isnt the end of the world, but our interior would have been better with him. Emerson now is by far the best option at the position. Simmons could be a reliable, but hasnt proven himself yet. Garland has proven he can contribute and is reliable, but lacks the overall talent and athleticism to be a major impact player at the position. Knowing Pruitts past, he will never sacrifice talent on the field for the notion of, "wait, he's not listed at that position". When Bituli went down, he was reluctant to trot Peterson out there even though Crouch played OLB. Crouch is more talented and the risk of a drop off was too much. Too many examples to list, but I'll let it go.
Gooden would’ve been a DT backing up Solomon...so better depth. Agree to disagree on Garland’s talent and what you and I believe is the definition of BASE in a fireplug. Not sure how you managed to sneak in Peterson as an example in this discussion, since Peterson is still smallish for an inside backer...why not trot out Solon Page? Never been one to campaign against playing TALENT but I’m very anti shoving something that doesn’t fit because of high school star ranking.
 

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Gooden would’ve been a DT backing up Solomon...so better depth. Agree to disagree on Garland’s talent and what you and I believe is the definition of BASE in a fireplug. Not sure how you managed to sneak in Peterson as an example in this discussion, since Peterson is still smallish for an inside backer...why not trot out Solon Page? Never been one to campaign against playing TALENT but I’m very anti shoving something that doesn’t fit because of high school star ranking.
Peterson is 6'2 230. How is that "smallish"?
 

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In comparison to Crouch? Neither here nor there, using Peterson in an argument in playing fit or talent? He’s displayed neither.
JJ has been really unimpressive in the snaps i've seen him in, but Ansley is still really high on him.

I'm just saying 6'2 230 isn't really small for his position. Crouch isn't really a fair comparison either, considering he's the biggest LB on roster (besides maybe Eason). He's at least bigger than Page.
 

keenobserver

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Gooden would’ve been a DT backing up Solomon...so better depth. Agree to disagree on Garland’s talent and what you and I believe is the definition of BASE in a fireplug. Not sure how you managed to sneak in Peterson as an example in this discussion, since Peterson is still smallish for an inside backer...why not trot out Solon Page? Never been one to campaign against playing TALENT but I’m very anti shoving something that doesn’t fit because of high school star ranking.
So your asserting Gooden, who played NT in 2018 was versatile enough to make the switch from NT to DT/E in 2020 without ever having done it (which I actually agree with), but the same cant be said about Solomon getting reps inside when his measurables make at least just as much sense?

Peterson, Solon, and Aaron Beasley were far less talented than Crouch last season. That's the point. Ideally you want players to be masters of their craft and to focus their efforts entirely on that---(this comes from the Billicheck/Saban school of thinking)...The problem has been CJP hasnt been close to being able to fully implement this YET. So yes, we have seen OLBs play inside, OGs play OT, players being shifted, etc.....If you've ever coached a little in hs or volunteered to be around coaches that have (as in CJPs) case, this is a reality they deal with.....

It all boils down to this: you believe Solomon, Garland, and Middleton would be a far better front than Butler, Solomon, Middleton.....

You may be right. The original one part of my post floated the notion that it's possible we could see a version of the latter.
 
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keenobserver

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JJ has been really unimpressive in the snaps i've seen him in, but Ansley is still really high on him.

I'm just saying 6'2 230 isn't really small for his position. Crouch isn't really a fair comparison either, considering he's the biggest LB on roster (besides maybe Eason). He's at least bigger than Page.
I agree @johnfnkelly...I'll also add anyone watching the Alabama game knows Peterson just doesnt have "IT" for whatever reason, and its definitely not a size or looking the part issue. When the ball is snapped, it appears like he's stunned. His reaction to his reads are really, really slow. Looks like it either might be a knowledge issue or a confidence issue? Hopefully it's not a guts issue.

In response to Crouch, I've always thought the writing has been on the wall that Crouch's preferred spot by the staff is OLB. Pruitt said early last season in an interview, "we really want to start Q on the outside, but we love for all our LBs to play four for four-all positions. It makes them more versatile and it creates value for themselves on the next level"...

His size is also comparable to alot of those really good SAMs that BAMA has produced over the years---Courtney Upshaw is one that comes to mind.

This is one of the issues I have with alot of the volwire predictive depth charts so far. With Banks back, I think we'll see less of QC inside. I think we would've saw less of him there last season if Banks wasn't an idiot last season. I know people have their own views on Banks, but I think he's capable of being a great ILB opposite HT. In other words, Henry T, Banks, and Crouch on the field at the same time is ideal IMO.
 
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butchna

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So your asserting Gooden, who played NT in 2018 was versatile enough to make the switch from NT to DT/E in 2020 without ever having done it (which I actually agree with), but the same cant be said about Solomon getting reps inside when his measurables make at least just as much sense?

Peterson, Solon, and Aaron Beasley were far less talented than Crouch last season. That's the point. Ideally you want players to be masters of their craft and to focus their efforts entirely on that---(this comes from the Billicheck/Saban school of thinking)...The problem has been CJP hasnt been close to being able to fully implement this YET. So yes, we have seen OLBs play inside, OGs play OT, players being shifted, etc.....If you've ever coached a little in hs or volunteered to be around coaches that have (as in CJPs) case, this is a reality they deal with.....

It all boils down to this, you believe Solomon, Garland, and Middleton would be a far better front than Butler, Solomon, Middleton.....

You may be right. The original one part of my post floated the notion that it's possible we could see a version of the latter.
We had no better options in 18. In fact I remember advocating Gooden playing NT that year over many who projected Tuttle...familiar reasoning. Using Crouch inside is nowhere in the same neighborhood as your argument in this discussion. Crouch was and is better as a talent and a fit than Peterson, Solon and Beasley. And quit “boiling down” MY shizz because you suck at it! Middleton, EMERSON and Solomon are my projected starters followed by Butler, GARLAND and Bumphus with very little falloff if any. This all began with you lamenting us not landing Payton Page. It’d be better if we had his talent on the squad, but it’s nothing we’re projected to miss in the next couple of seasons. As far as all your “I volunteered to coach” bluster? Good for you! Hope you can find a board of equal self perceived talent which will free you from these monotonous discussions with inferiors.
 
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butchna

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JJ has been really unimpressive in the snaps i've seen him in, but Ansley is still really high on him.

I'm just saying 6'2 230 isn't really small for his position. Crouch isn't really a fair comparison either, considering he's the biggest LB on roster (besides maybe Eason). He's at least bigger than Page.
Is there somewhere you’ve seen it quoted...this enamored view by Ansley? Page isn’t a Pruitt sized LB...so useless comparison. My comment on his size is mostly in response to him being pushed as this FIT that Pruitt passed on to play Crouch at the same position. He’s not small compared to normal human beings but he’s no PROTOTYPE size wise at the position. Until further notice he’s not even a stopgap at the position but somehow that equals Solomon should play NT.
 

keenobserver

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We had no better options in 18. In fact I remember advocating Gooden playing NT that year over many who projected Tuttle...familiar reasoning. Using Crouch inside is nowhere in the same neighborhood as your argument in this discussion. Crouch was and is better as a talent and a fit than Peterson, Solon and Beasley. And quit “boiling down” MY shizz because you suck at it! Middleton, EMERSON and Solomon are my projected starters followed by Butler, GARLAND and Bumphus with very little falloff if any. This all began with you lamenting us not landing Payton Page. It’d be better if we had his talent on the squad, but it’s nothing we’re projected to miss in the next couple of seasons. As far as all your “I volunteered to coach” bluster? Good for you! Hope you can find a board of equal self perceived talent which will free you from these monotonous discussions with inferiors.
TBH, most board members expect nothing less from you other than to read a post, find something small about the post to troll, and attempt to feel vindicated from a point that really doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical scenerio: Emerson tears his ACL is camp. In your world, Kingston Harris immediately becomes the backup NT because that's the position he's penciled in as?
 

butchna

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TBH, most board members expect nothing less from you other than to read a post, find something small about the post to troll, and attempt to feel vindicated from a point that really doesn't make sense.

Hypothetical scenerio: Emerson tears his ACL is camp. In your world, Kingston Harris immediately becomes the backup NT because that's the position he's penciled in as?
So you’re speaking for everybody else in your unelected position? Should’ve ruled that in the beginning instead of slumming. Your posting style is annoyingly familiar...ever VOLUNTEER to coach Austin Pope? Emerson goes down? Garland starts and Simmons backs him up. On the record believing Kingston Harris transfers.
 

keenobserver

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So you’re speaking for everybody else in your unelected position? Should’ve ruled that in the beginning instead of slumming. Your posting style is annoyingly familiar...ever VOLUNTEER to coach Austin Pope? Emerson goes down? Garland starts and Simmons backs him up. On the record believing Kingston Harris transfers.
With respect to my posting style, revisit how many times I've conceded points to you in our discussion. Compare that with your style. (I'm confused about Pope?...not following)...

As for speaking for everyone, I'll concede that one to you as well because I do not. However, there is a search function for every users posts. I'm not into name calling, but based on your "posting style" and history, you do exhibit a pattern of consistent argumentative behavior"...the unfortunate part is many of your posts provide alot of insight and I enjoy them.

Also, never said I've coached or volunteered, I posed the question from a coaches perspective...... It doesnt really matter if I have or havent, we're on a silly message board. All that should be inferred is it's important sometimes to try to see things from a coaches point of view.
 
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butchna

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With respect to my posting style, revisit how many times I've conceded points to you in our discussion. Compare that with your style. (I'm confused about Pope?...not following)...

As for speaking for everyone, I'll concede that one to you as well because I do not. However, there is a search function for every users posts. I'm not into name calling, but based on your "posting style" and history, you do exhibit a pattern of consistent argumentative behavior"...the unfortunate part is many of your posts provide alot of insight and I enjoy them
Another poster used the “if you knew anything about coaching, you’d not disagree with me” style. Claimed to have coached Austin Pope when he was a wee lad. If that wasn’t one of your former screennames...disregard. Appreciate the props but I don’t manufacture disagreements. They occur organically. I’m good with an agree to disagree ending to a conversation, but the Columbo style “one more thing” add on violates the spirit. You’re an IT BOILS DOWN TO kind of guy, so I’ll wing it. IT BOILS DOWN TO you feel losing out on Page deprives us of NT options in our near future and I feel that Both Emerson and Garland are emerging talents who wouldn’t have yielded to him anyway...at least immediately.
 

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