Much debated/maligned class of ‘17

[Billy Ratliff]

Class we signed in ‘17 has been criticized widely but praised by some, especially Doug Matthews. Just did a quick check and about half the class are currently consistent contributors, playing pretty much in every game. About half those are starters. Interestingly, the other half are almost all gone from the program. So the contribution % is well within the norm but the gone by Jr season % is out the roof...

 

[Volgrad98]

butch did recruit some talent here, but he couldn't develop or utilize it properly(by properly I mean to win games). I guessing the ones that are gone either couldn't hack it or were advised to seek other opportunities elsewhere. The ones that remain are finally getting some coaching and are in a good S&C program. It's going to be after next year that the football program will be on firm footing and you won't see a lot of roster turn over. JMO of course.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were joining the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

 

[RollerVol]

coaching and culture are always keys to establishing a program and we're getting there...

GO BIG ORANGE...BEAT VANDY!

 

[utvols74]

I think Butch Jones and his MAC pedigree is a little like being a great general manager at a Dollar Tree and thinking you'd be a great general manager at a Wal-Mart Supercenter.

 

[landscapingvol]

It’s very simple really. He was a great recruiter who didn’t surround himself with great coaches on offense especially. He could motivate players when they were winning but once you start losing players tuned him out. He isn’t the first head coach who wasn’t a great X’s and O’s guy and some have had good careers once they understand their limitations similar to Ed Orgeron and Mack Brown. I think he probably understood it on defense which was why he hired Shoop but never realized it on offense. You can “out talent” other teams if you have significantly more talented players but that is hard to do in a major conference unless you are elite like Alabama or Ohio State. Hopefully for his sake he has learned that talent alone can only get a team so far and that he needs to surround himself with coaches who can improve their talents.

 

[savannahfan]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would clearly have driven his recruiting and training philosophies.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were entering the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

Really great post. Your take on the "butcher" of Tn football is well stated. It is also proved out in the way the team preformed. Some that didn't come and some who left must not have agreed with his views because the have gone on to pretty good careers.

 

[EZE]

butch did recruit some talent here, but he couldn't develop or utilize it properly(by properly I mean to win games). I guessing the ones that are gone either couldn't hack it or were advised to seek other opportunities elsewhere. The ones that remain are finally getting some coaching and are in a good S&C program. It's going to be after next year that the football program will be on firm footing and you won't see a lot of roster turn over. JMO of course.

Butch still has the two best seasons in the last 12 years. He was on track through year three, wobbled in year four with loads of talent, and then let the wheels come off.

His misuse of a Kamara says everything that needs to be said about his inability to manage his roster...to your point.

 

[Orangetoes]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would clearly have driven his recruiting and training philosophies.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were entering the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

Butch was a star chaser above all else. He needed the Jimmys and Joes (Dobbs/Barnett/Kamara) because his x's and o's didn't work in the SEC. His recruiting wasn't designed to fit a system other than to rise up in the recruiting rankings. That's why we had some generational talent but couldn't seem to ever get over the hump in the east. Why else would he continue to recruit pro-style QBs for an offense that was RPO heavy? As much crap as Hurd gets on here - he just wasn't a fit for Butch's scheme. Imagine him at Alabama and what he could have done in a traditional offense.

You are right though... it was all entertainment for him because he didn't really understand football in the SEC.

 

[05_never_again]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were joining the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

Butch is simply your prototypical mid-major or FCS coach. His success at the lower levels he coached at was exclusively a function of his superior recruiting relative to other schools in the conference. The G5 conferences he came from are nowhere near as competitive or deep as the P5 conferences, and neither is the talent pool they recruit from. So if you're a good hype man/salesman/motivator relative to other coaches in the conference, you'll get more talent, and you'll win more games simply because you have more speed, strength, and athleticism than your opponents. At the more competitive P5 level, you actually have to be able to develop/coach the talent (because the gap between the haves and the have-nots is smaller) and make good in-game decisions. He was terrible at all of that, hence his fleeting success at Tennessee. His improvement of Tennessee, while it lasted, was purely a function of him recruiting better than Dooley.

Think about a more extreme example...really good high school coaches. The guys who have been around for 40 years and won 15 state titles, stuff like that. Those guys aren't tactically smarter or more knowledgeable about the game than other HS coaches. In fact, they probably know less schematically than some of the young bucks because the game has passed them by. What they are good at is motivation and connecting with players, and that leads to parents getting waivers for their really talented kid to attend the school (or just sending their kid to that school if it is private), moving into that school zone, etc. That's basically what Butch did, except at the college level. He by no means is some football guru who can break down intricacies of the game, because at the levels he coached at you didn't really have or need to.

Also, at some level, I do think that the spot became too big for him. He knew football at Tennessee was a bigger deal than Cincy or Central Michigan, but I don't think he knew exactly how much bigger it was, and he had trouble understanding that with the bigger spot came higher expectations. After the 2015 and 2016 seasons, I think Butch figuratively kind of leaned back in his chair, put a satisfied smile on his face, and said "Man, we've built this program all the way back up...what a great job we did." 8 regular season wins and a 9th in a bowl was a really good season to him, even if expectations were higher and those seasons included several losses in games he should have won. He simply didn't fully understand the fishbowl he was in. I think he thought he'd reached some kind of pinnacle (he basically said as much after the 2016 season) and assumed the fans thought the same thing.

 

[VOLfrombama]

The biggest issue with Butcher’s guys was with S&C. We were small, slow, and soft compared to the rest of the SEC. It showed when we were so easily pushed around by the better teams.

 

[rikberry31]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were joining the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

There is truth to the showman business. I believe he was paranoid about his image He had little man syndrome), he was dishonest, and his worst fault was that he recruited the wrong kind of players to win in the SEC consistently.
He recruited PAC-12 players. Oregon recruits different player than Alabubba and their best teams would be .500 squads in the SEC. I’m not saying there wouldn’t win against the top teams once and a while but they could not cut it going toe to toe consistently in the SEC.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were joining the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

All hat and no cattle.

 

[MikeVol44]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.
.

Butch "Barnum and Bailey" Jones---I LIKE IT! And believe that it's a very accurate description of Jones' approach.

I don't believe the vast majority of college coaches and players have ever approached the game as entertainment.
You'll never convince me that Neyland, Majors, Fulmer, and now Pruitt have ever approached the game that way.
You can bet your bottom dollar that Saban doesn't approach the game that way.

It takes plain 'ol HARD WORK, submission, discipline, and obedience every day as a TEAM to become excellent and win championships in football.
Many players may have the talent but NOT the commitment to the TEAM work ethic, attitude, discipline, and willingness to accept coaching required for the development of a championship TEAM!
It appears that CJP laid that message down after the Florida game--and this team has accepted it!

It takes time to establish those "intangibles" within a program as the cultural norm--especially in a program that has languished under extremely POOR DISCIPLINE and LEADERSHIP from the top down over the last 10 years.

I've said it before, and I will say it again---hiring Fulmer as AD was the best thing that UT could've done because he has the fire in his belly to return the program to elite status.
And Fulmer lived and breathed those "intangibles" for most of his playing and coaching career--except for the last 5 years or so of his coaching career when he lost his fundamental connection to those values.

But the fire in Fulmer's belly is redemption----redeeming those last 5 years or so of his legacy and UT Football in the shadow of General Neyland.
And FULMER was able to recognize CJP as a man with that same connection and fire in his belly.

CJP's advantage over KIffin, Dools, and Lyle is that he has LIVED hard work, submission, humility, discipline, and obedience as a WAY OF LIFE in order to earn his way to where he is now!
We LOVE JENNINGS and TREY SMITH because they are the embodiment of those principles!!

It's the reason CJP ran afoul of those goofs at UGA when he was there under Richt.
His mentality will always CLASH with those guys who have replaced those values with the complacency that accompanies thinking that the game of FOOTBALL is nothing more than entertainment.

GO VOLS!

 

[i2amavol]

The biggest issue with Butcher’s guys was with S&C. We were small, slow, and soft compared to the rest of the SEC. It showed when we were so easily pushed around by the better teams.

I think you are more correct than anyone else. S&C was also the result of a "soft" culture, that didn't emphasize hard work on a daily basis. I don't necessarily think it was the result of bad S&C hires, although not having someone in charge of it for a while was a major blunder, if I remember correctly.

 

[beneVOLence]

I'm still trying to wrap my head around what must have been Butch's coaching philosophy, which would have driven his recruiting and training styles.

This is purely speculation, but it seems the man was a showman, and had a showman's attitude toward the game of football. He seems to have viewed it as an entertainment industry--which from a business perspective, it is...but from a coach's perspective it has to be taken way more seriously if you want results at the highest levels of the game. So that may have been his fatal flaw, it seems. He was Barnum & Bailey when we needed Neyland and Fulmer.

So if he really saw it as entertainment, and was recruiting players with the idea that they were joining the entertainment industry, it would be all show, right? The underlying message might have been, they don't have to REALLY work hard, they just have to put on a great show for the fans. Their job is to entertain, to amaze, to excite, rather than get bloody and worn out and still strive and push for another yard.

That all seems far-fetched...but there was SOMETHING far-fetched about Butch Jones, or he wouldn't have failed so miserably. And if he was giving that message to our players, that would certainly explain why perhaps they didn't put the long hours into the weight room and on the practice field outside of scheduled practices.

Like I said, just speculation. Still can't for the life of me figure out where he must have been coming from. One thing's for sure: he didn't see the business of college football the way most coaches see it. And this would have greatly affected the '17 recruiting class.

I wonder where he got this philosophy? It's almost like how a band director philosophy would be.

 

[NighthawkVol]

Class we signed in ‘17 has been criticized widely but praised by some, especially Doug Matthews. Just did a quick check and about half the class are currently consistent contributors, playing pretty much in every game. About half those are starters. Interestingly, the other half are almost all gone from the program. So the contribution % is well within the norm but the gone by Jr season % is out the roof...

I'd be interested to know how these numbers compare to the 14 and 15 classes that were so highly rated, but included a lot of busts.

 

[greenbacknative]

Il' l bet the tutoring he's the last 2 years will make a difference in his next job.

 

[vols40]

Butch still has the two best seasons in the last 12 years. He was on track through year three, wobbled in year four with loads of talent, and then let the wheels come off.

His misuse of a Kamara says everything that needs to be said about his inability to manage his roster...to your point.

He also crapped the bed in 16 with the SEC East title on the line.

 

[08Vol]

There is truth to the showman business. I believe he was paranoid about his image He had little man syndrome), he was dishonest, and his worst fault was that he recruited the wrong kind of players to win in the SEC consistently.
He recruited PAC-12 players. Oregon recruits different player than Alabubba and their best teams would be .500 squads in the SEC. I’m not saying there wouldn’t win against the top teams once and a while but they could not cut it going toe to toe consistently in the SEC.

Oregon best us senseless the last 2 times we played them. Oregon would be 10-2 with our record right now

 

[MoodyVol]

Oregon best us senseless the last 2 times we played them. Oregon would be 10-2 with our record right now

What?

 

[rikberry31]

Oregon best us senseless the last 2 times we played them. Oregon would be 10-2 with our record right now

Oregon would be no better than us if they were in the SEC.

 

[DiderotsGhost]

Butch is simply your prototypical mid-major or FCS coach. His success at the lower levels he coached at was exclusively a function of his superior recruiting relative to other schools in the conference. The G5 conferences he came from are nowhere near as competitive or deep as the P5 conferences, and neither is the talent pool they recruit from. So if you're a good hype man/salesman/motivator relative to other coaches in the conference, you'll get more talent, and you'll win more games simply because you have more speed, strength, and athleticism than your opponents. At the more competitive P5 level, you actually have to be able to develop/coach the talent (because the gap between the haves and the have-nots is smaller) and make good in-game decisions. He was terrible at all of that, hence his fleeting success at Tennessee. His improvement of Tennessee, while it lasted, was purely a function of him recruiting better than Dooley.

I think this is partly true.

But the other part of the formula was that some of his staff coaches at Cincy and the early years at UT were reasonably good. Bajakian was underrated as was Azzanni. Note that while the 2013 and 2014 teams didn't have a ton of talent, they played very disciplined, particularly that 2014 team.

The more times Butch had to replace people on staff, the worse his teams played. When Bajakian left, he replaced him with Debord, who was good at game-planning, but all the sudden our mental mistakes seemed to surge (more penalties, more turnovers). And when Debord left, he was replaced with Larry Scott, who wasn't really good at anything other than recruiting. When Azzanni left, Butch made a very disastrous hire of Kevin Beard. When Butch ditched Mahoney, he made a disastrous hire of Walt Wells.

And then of course, Butch ran off our S&C coach in Dave Lawson and that's when things really turned south. Suddenly half our roster was out of shape and then the number of injuries started to surge.

So it was a combo of things IMO. And then just throw in the fact that he simply "gave up" sometime around late 2016, so that it felt like he wasn't even trying any more. The fact that he refuses to take a job above "Saban's intern" right now really says a lot to me; dude made his millions and doesn't really want to work any more.

 

[05_never_again]

The more times Butch had to replace people on staff, the worse his teams played. When Bajakian left, he replaced him with Debord, who was good at game-planning, but all the sudden our mental mistakes seemed to surge (more penalties, more turnovers). And when Debord left, he was replaced with Larry Scott, who wasn't really good at anything other than recruiting. When Azzanni left, Butch made a very disastrous hire of Kevin Beard. When Butch ditched Mahoney, he made a disastrous hire of Walt Wells.

...and even when Butch did make a hire that was basically universally thought of as a great hire in Shoop, it didn't work out. Tennessee under Butch was a place where talent went to die, regardless if it was a player or a coach. Shoop at great defenses at Vandy, great defenses at Penn St, completely stunk at Tennessee, and generally has had good defenses at Miss St (last year's defense was great).

The degree to which is mismanaged staffs was severe, particularly on the offensive side of the ball. Once his buddy and longtime OC Bajakian left, I don't think he ever really truly knew how to replace him. He brought his buddy DeBord in from off the street, then once DeBord left simply promoted Larry Scott from within, who had no OC experience and was on the staff because he was a recruiter. That was a bang-on synopsis.

 

[SpookyAction]

The Bob Shoop years in Knoxville have mystified me. Culture and players not physically ready to play are the only explanations for the product on the field. Shoop is a great coach.

Was he ordered to have zero public presence during those two seasons? Because ESPN and CBS both tend to highlight coordinators during games and there was never even a shot of him during any of those games, and simply brief mentions of his experience with Vandy and PennSt.