'26 MS WR Tristen Keys (Tennessee commit)

#3,252
#3,252
LouderVol said:
I like keeping context about these scores.

in '21, our average recruit was #454 in the nation
in '26 our average recruit is #247 in the nation.

Bama AVERAGE was #109, this class is #187
Georgia AVERAGE was #160, this class is #216
even though they are still ranked above us, their average talent has fallen.

so we went from being -354 to Bama, to now -60.
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...and we could beat Bama even with far inferior talent. Now that they have lesser talent and crappy coaching, they're in for annual beatings.
 
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#3,257
#3,257
Vol423 said:
...and we could beat Bama even with far inferior talent. Now that they have lesser talent and crappy coaching, they're in for annual beatings.
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I have maintained that recruiting isn't the end all be all. it covers up mistakes, which everyone makes, or flaws/shortcomings in coaching/play calling. but you can't be trash at the rest of it and rely on recruiting/talent. that is the Butch Jones method.
 
#3,258
#3,258
LouderVol said:
I have maintained that recruiting isn't the end all be all. it covers up mistakes, which everyone makes, or flaws/shortcomings in coaching/play calling. but you can't be trash at the rest of it and rely on recruiting/talent. that is the Butch Jones method.
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Butch Jones made his erroneous reputation of bring a great recruiter off of volume. He had a few big successes, like Kamara, who he severely under-utilized. However, the large majority of his recruits were average at best, and Butch was a poor coach.
 
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#3,259
#3,259
Vol423 said:
Butch Jones made his erroneous reputation of bring a great recruiter off of volume. He had a few big successes, like Kamara, who he severely under-utilized. However, the large majority of his recruits were average at best, and Butch was a poor coach.
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not defending Butch, but quantity has a quality all on its own. its not like he was the only one taking a bunch of guys and counting on a few performing.

the fact that so many had better NFL success than college success tells me he was a terrible developer, but could at least identify some talent.
 
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#3,260
#3,260
LouderVol said:
not defending Butch, but quantity has a quality all on its own. its not like he was the only one taking a bunch of guys and counting on a few performing.

the fact that so many had better NFL success than college success tells me he was a terrible developer, but could at least identify some talent.
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Yep. The guy signed Antonio Brown and Eric Fisher at CMU, Derek Wolfe, the Kelces and other future pros at Cincinnati. He could identify and recruit talent. He just didn’t develop it into a high level team. Frankly, had he stayed at Cincinnati, he’d have had a great career there. That’s his level.

It was kind of telling how many guys were non-draft picks out of UT, but then became NFL starters, like Kyle Phillips, Shy Tuttle, Emmanuel Moseley, Marquez Calloway, et al.
 
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#3,261
#3,261
NighthawkVol said:
Yep. The guy signed Antonio Brown and Eric Fisher at CMU, Derek Wolfe, the Kelces and other future pros at Cincinnati. He could identify and recruit talent. He just didn’t develop it into a high level team. Frankly, had he stayed at Cincinnati, he’d have had a great career there. That’s his level.

It was kind of telling how many guys were non-draft picks out of UT, but then became NFL starters, like Kyle Phillips, Shy Tuttle, Emmanuel Moseley, Marquez Calloway, et al.
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Just an FYI but he didn’t recruit either of the Kelce’s to Cincy. They were there before he ever got there. Those others you mentioned yes.
 
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#3,262
#3,262
Bigorangefaninga said:
Just an FYI but he didn’t recruit either of the Kelce’s to Cincy. They were there before he ever got there. Those others you mentioned yes.
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Well he let Jason back on the team after kicking him off! 😂

The Fisher evaluation was probably the best. Unfortunately, he kept trying to repeat it at UT by signing guys who needed to add 80 lbs to play OL.
 
#3,266
#3,266
NighthawkVol said:
Yep. The guy signed Antonio Brown and Eric Fisher at CMU, Derek Wolfe, the Kelces and other future pros at Cincinnati. He could identify and recruit talent. He just didn’t develop it into a high level team. Frankly, had he stayed at Cincinnati, he’d have had a great career there. That’s his level.

It was kind of telling how many guys were non-draft picks out of UT, but then became NFL starters, like Kyle Phillips, Shy Tuttle, Emmanuel Moseley, Marquez Calloway, et al.
Click to expand...
Let's look a little closer...

Antonio Brown was ruled academically ineligible out of HS and supposedly had interest from big D1 schools like Michigan State, FSU & Clemson. His father was a football standout and played professionally, so he wasn't some unknown kid. That area in Miami is well know for producing some incredible NFL talent. Brown tried to enroll at several schools after HS, including Alcorn State, but couldn't qualify. He then settled at a prep school in NC and put up stupid numbers as a QB in 5 games. After prep, he received an offer from FIU - which was rescinded after an altercation with campus security. He was never technically on the team at FIU and I think word got around the he was a primadonna and a known head case. Brown then tried calling schools all around the country looking for walk-on opportunities. He got ahold of Butch who recruited him at WVU and later Zach Azazzani. Brown reached out to him (not the other way around) and he walked on at CMU. Was not offered a scholarship - he walked on. The notion that Butch found this gem in the rough with Brown is absurd.

The Kelce brothers were recruited by Brian Kelly.

Eric Fisher was undersized in high school and only switched to offensive line as a senior after his coach told him he wouldn’t play defensive end at the next level. He was all-state in Michigan, drew offers from Eastern Michigan and others, and started college as a tight end before adding 80 pounds and turning himself into the No. 1 overall pick. His rise had far more to do with his own work ethic than with Butch.

Derek Wolfe came from a tough background, was essentially adopted by his best friend’s parents (the Hoppel family), and was set on the path to Cincinnati because his best friend’s family more than Butch. I think one of the Hoppel's was a DT at Cincy prior to the arrival of B.K., but B.K. did coach him.

When you look closer, it’s clear Butch benefited from timing and circumstance more than talent evaluation or development. He rode Brian Kelly’s coattails to the Cincinnati job and was largely a fraud.

Even at Tennessee, that so-called legacy class was driven by peer recruiting, not coaching. Twitter was at its peak as a recruiting tool, and those players wanted to build something special on their own. The class probably comes together regardless of who the head coach was.

Butch was decent at selling himself to ADs. He was not some wizard at identifying talent.

Just going to leave this here to remind you all how moronic this man was. He thought this was a motivational tool and put it on full dislplay, on national telelvision so that we could become the butt of CFB jokes for years to come. I guarantee you players laughed at this man behind his back. And that victory cigar in the Bama locker room where the Bama guys had that "gotcha" moment with him. He was one of the biggest frauds in CFB and this is the hill I will die on.

DI7WkcwUwAAcOgQ
 
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#3,267
#3,267
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Let's look a little closer...

Antonio Brown was ruled academically ineligible out of HS and supposedly had interest from big D1 schools like Michigan State, FSU & Clemson. His father was a football standout and played professionally, so he wasn't some unknown kid. That area in Miami is well know for producing some incredible NFL talent. Brown tried to enroll at several schools after HS, including Alcorn State, but couldn't qualify. He then settled at a prep school in NC and put up stupid numbers as a QB in 5 games. After prep, he received an offer from FIU - which was rescinded after an altercation with campus security. He was never technically on the team at FIU and I think word got around the he was a primadonna and a known head case. Brown then tried calling schools all around the country looking for walk-on opportunities. He got ahold of Butch who recruited him at WVU and later Zach Azazzani. Brown reached out to him (not the other way around) and he walked on at CMU. Was not offered a scholarship - he walked on. The notion that Butch found this gem in the rough with Brown is absurd.

The Kelce brothers were recruited by Brian Kelly.

Eric Fisher was undersized in high school and only switched to offensive line as a senior after his coach told him he wouldn’t play defensive end at the next level. He was all-state in Michigan, drew offers from Eastern Michigan and others, and started college as a tight end before adding 80 pounds and turning himself into the No. 1 overall pick. His rise had far more to do with his own work ethic than with Butch.

Derek Wolfe came from a tough background, was essentially adopted by his best friend’s parents (the Hoppel family), and was set on the path to Cincinnati because his best friend’s family more than Butch. I think one of the Hoppel's was a DT at Cincy prior to the arrival of B.K., but B.K. did coach him.

When you look closer, it’s clear Butch benefited from timing and circumstance more than talent evaluation or development. He rode Brian Kelly’s coattails to the Cincinnati job and was largely a fraud.

Even at Tennessee, that so-called legacy class was driven by peer recruiting, not coaching. Twitter was at its peak as a recruiting tool, and those players wanted to build something special on their own. The class probably comes together regardless of who the head coach was.

Butch was decent at selling himself to ADs. He was not some wizard at identifying talent.

Just going to leave this here to remind you all how moronic this man was. He thought this was a motivational tool and put it on full dislplay, on national telelvision so that we could become the butt of CFB jokes for years to come. I guarantee you players laughed at this man behind his back. And that victory cigar in the Bama locker room where the Bama guys had that "gotcha" moment with him. He was one of the biggest frauds in CFB and this is the hill I will die on.

DI7WkcwUwAAcOgQ
Click to expand...
Oh and JJ Watt. I left him out.

Nobody said he was a wizard. He got some good talent at those schools for their level. And yes, Fisher was a great eval/projection, especially given the things you mentioned…different position, lack of size. He was a 2* recruit who became the #1 overall pick.

There are all kinds of recruiting stories about why a guy ended up at a certain school. Yes luck is always involved.

Butch did things well enough at a lower level to get a shot at a higher level. He wasn’t good enough for that higher level.

Not sure why you put that photo there. No one is saying Butch was a good coach. The trash can thing has nothing to do with this conversation. Neither does the cigar. You seem to be really triggered over any mention that he might have done anything good. He was a failure overall, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t, at some point, display some qualities as a coach. They weren’t nearly enough to succeed at Tennessee
 
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#3,269
#3,269
Volunteer_Kirby said:
Let's look a little closer...

Antonio Brown was ruled academically ineligible out of HS and supposedly had interest from big D1 schools like Michigan State, FSU & Clemson. His father was a football standout and played professionally, so he wasn't some unknown kid. That area in Miami is well know for producing some incredible NFL talent. Brown tried to enroll at several schools after HS, including Alcorn State, but couldn't qualify. He then settled at a prep school in NC and put up stupid numbers as a QB in 5 games. After prep, he received an offer from FIU - which was rescinded after an altercation with campus security. He was never technically on the team at FIU and I think word got around the he was a primadonna and a known head case. Brown then tried calling schools all around the country looking for walk-on opportunities. He got ahold of Butch who recruited him at WVU and later Zach Azazzani. Brown reached out to him (not the other way around) and he walked on at CMU. Was not offered a scholarship - he walked on. The notion that Butch found this gem in the rough with Brown is absurd.

The Kelce brothers were recruited by Brian Kelly.

Eric Fisher was undersized in high school and only switched to offensive line as a senior after his coach told him he wouldn’t play defensive end at the next level. He was all-state in Michigan, drew offers from Eastern Michigan and others, and started college as a tight end before adding 80 pounds and turning himself into the No. 1 overall pick. His rise had far more to do with his own work ethic than with Butch.

Derek Wolfe came from a tough background, was essentially adopted by his best friend’s parents (the Hoppel family), and was set on the path to Cincinnati because his best friend’s family more than Butch. I think one of the Hoppel's was a DT at Cincy prior to the arrival of B.K., but B.K. did coach him.

When you look closer, it’s clear Butch benefited from timing and circumstance more than talent evaluation or development. He rode Brian Kelly’s coattails to the Cincinnati job and was largely a fraud.

Even at Tennessee, that so-called legacy class was driven by peer recruiting, not coaching. Twitter was at its peak as a recruiting tool, and those players wanted to build something special on their own. The class probably comes together regardless of who the head coach was.

Butch was decent at selling himself to ADs. He was not some wizard at identifying talent.

Just going to leave this here to remind you all how moronic this man was. He thought this was a motivational tool and put it on full dislplay, on national telelvision so that we could become the butt of CFB jokes for years to come. I guarantee you players laughed at this man behind his back. And that victory cigar in the Bama locker room where the Bama guys had that "gotcha" moment with him. He was one of the biggest frauds in CFB and this is the hill I will die on.

DI7WkcwUwAAcOgQ
Click to expand...
This is what we call “coming off the top rope “
 
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#3,272
#3,272
NighthawkVol said:
Not to mention a straw man. #Triggered
Click to expand...

What is this Twitter?...

Watt was considered a project - a lower tier D1 guy or a G5 guy and his offers showed as much (Minnesota, Colorado to name a couple). Watt was recruited as a TE by Butch. The thing about Watt is everyone missed on him, including Butch - who, by the way, completely mis-evaluated him and strongly encouraged a move to the OL. This was a large part of the reason why Watt left CMU after 1 year and decided to walk-on at Wisconsin. Everyone knows this story though. Right?
 
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