Mother bear kills self, and cub to escape torture

#26
#26
That's sad. Multiple curb stompings need to take place at that factory.
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#30
#30
I have to be a little dubious about the idea that the mother bear killed the cub with the specific and knowing intent of "ending it's suffering before I take myself out.". That strikes me as some classic anthropomorphizing. The same can be said that the mother ended up killing herself as an express and intellectual act of suicide.

It is however quite easy to believe that the mother knew her cub was trapped and in distress and, in the sad process of doing the best she could to free it, ended up killing it. Afterwards she threw herself against whatever barriers held her and in doing so ended up killing herself.

The latter explanation, though not nearly as emotionally dramatic, isn't really much less sad. This procedure carried out against these animals (for bile? for their f'ing bile?) is barbarous in the extreme.
 
#31
#31
The chinese suck. Period. Had a friend just get back from China after adopting. He spent 3 weeks there. When chinese have babies and they are girls, there is no telling what may happen to that child. Orphanages are filled with girls. My friend's little girl had a cleft palate and was left for dead on a road after birth. This bear thing is brutal and you wish a bear could get out and go postal on everybody involved.
My generalization will offend, but I don't care. I have learned more about the Chinese in the past year than I ever knew and it's seldom positive. f em.
 
#34
#34
hndog609 said:
I have to be a little dubious about the idea that the mother bear killed the cub with the specific and knowing intent of "ending it's suffering before I take myself out.". That strikes me as some classic anthropomorphizing. The same can be said that the mother ended up killing herself as an express and intellectual act of suicide.

It is however quite easy to believe that the mother knew her cub was trapped and in distress and, in the sad process of doing the best she could to free it, ended up killing it. Afterwards she threw herself against whatever barriers held her and in doing so ended up killing herself.

The latter explanation, though not nearly as emotionally dramatic, isn't really much less sad. This procedure carried out against these animals (for bile? for their f'ing bile?) is barbarous in the extreme.
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There are animals that will kill their young if they fear they are in danger. They do it in a manner that would be less painful than being devoured alive.
 
#35
#35
The_Orange_Pearl said:
There are animals that will kill their young if they fear they are in danger. They do it in a manner that would be less painful than being devoured alive.
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I have never run across a credibly sourced ethological account of the kind of infanticide you describe. (and perhaps more to the point certainly nothing close involving an ursine species) There are several examples of infanticide where when conditions may not be favorable for long-term survival might be problematic or counterproductive the young can be killed by their mothers. (I'm specifically talking about mustached tamarins) It's assigning this calculated euthanasia aspect that just doesn't square with any scientifically supported study I've seen.

If you have a source that does support this contention I'd like to see it. (and I'm being serious, not condescending)
 
#36
#36
hndog609 said:
I have never run across a credibly sourced ethological account of the kind of infanticide you describe. (and perhaps more to the point certainly nothing close involving an ursine species) There are several examples of infanticide where when conditions may not be favorable for long-term survival might be problematic or counterproductive the young can be killed by their mothers. (I'm specifically talking about mustached tamarins) It's assigning this calculated euthanasia aspect that just doesn't square with any scientifically supported study I've seen.

If you have a source that does support this contention I'd like to see it. (and I'm being serious, not condescending)
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Does seeing it first hand count as a source? Having owned dwarf hampsters, this is a common practice(I know it is in other animals as well). You're not suppose to disturb the mother while the babies are still defenseless. She fears danger from outsiders. Even noises can cause this reaction. There is a good chance the mother will die trying to defend him which means they'll suffer anyways. So she does it herself.

Anyways, I ended up cleaning out a cage and came across a babies body with a severed head. I don't believe this was done out of not being able to provide for it but out of fear of being endangered after I had checked on the mother and realized she had babies. My presence freaked her out.

I'm not going to sit here and google sources because not all animals do this(which means it will be hard to find without knowing the specific animal). Having read about hampster having to take care of them, it's definitely true in there case. Having watched animal planet and national geographic, I know it's true in other animals as well. I just don't recall off the top of my head the specific ones. I believe Meerkats do it as well.

I just know that some animals will kill their offspring if they feel they are in danger and think they are saving them from a more painful death.
 
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#37
#37
It really isn't that far fetched to think animals can have these type of instincts. They naturally know how to care for babies. Some are natural hunters. Others are natural gatherers. You see march of the penguins? These things march across horrible conditions just to have babies and fathers starve to death waiting for mothers to come back with food. And if one of the eggs crack, mothers try to steal other mothers eggs.

Sometimes it's just natural in certain animals. It's not like they are stupid. They find ways to do all sorts of things they're never really taught. You see animals finding ways to use things as tools every day. Most recently fish. They adapt and learn.
 
#38
#38
The_Orange_Pearl said:
Does seeing it first hand count as a source? Having owned dwarf hampsters, this is a common practice(I know it is in other animals as well). You're not suppose to disturb the mother while the babies are still defenseless. She fears danger from outsiders. Even noises can cause this reaction. There is a good chance the mother will die trying to defend him which means they'll suffer anyways. So she does it herself.

Anyways, I ended up cleaning out a cage and came across a babies body with a severed head. I don't believe this was done out of not being able to provide for it but out of fear of being endangered after I had checked on the mother and realized she had babies. My presence freaked her out.

I just know that some animals will kill their offspring if they feel they are in danger and think they are saving them from a more painful death.
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The problem is not that there is infanticide (and in fact golden hamsters are notorious for this) but why. That introduction of a stressor can lead to infanticide is widely known in rodent species but, again, I've never heard a credible source claim this is as an act of euthenasia. Alternatively I've heard it posited that infanticide/abandonment could be an adaptation that, since when too young to defend themselves or escape, pups can be a risk of giving away the den location which is a danger to anything in the den. At any rate the problem is assigning some sort of noble intent on the parent's part, that they actually feel "it's a better way to go" for the young, that really pushes credibility. It's this very "conscious act" approach that the bear story seemed to push that looked awfully anthropogenic.

Anyway, if you ever come across a scientifically reviewed piece that allocates that kind of intent to animal infanticide I'd still be interested in a heads-up.

And again, this means of bile harvesting by the Chinese is simply detestable.
 
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