Mistakes a coincidence or something more?

[Lexvol]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:17 PM
Probably. However, none of the linemen Webb or Lewis ran behind were NFL standouts. Maybe having GREAT backs made those lines look better than they were.

[snapback]191678[/snapback]​

I would say that the jury is still out given the info. I would argue that Foster has made this OL look a lot better than it actually is as well.

 

[volinbham]

Originally posted by Orangewhiteblood@Nov 14, 2005 5:16 PM
I'm not saying that Foster is Jamal.  What I'm saying is IF Foster stays healthy (unlike Jamal) he could finish strong (unlike Jamal).

[snapback]191675[/snapback]​

That made my head hurt

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:13 PM
Ask Edgerrin James how long it takes to get back up to speed after a major knee injury. Most surgeons say it's 18-24 months.

[snapback]191672[/snapback]​

Suprisingly the exact amount of time it took him to get to the NFL :biggrin2:

I just think that's a broad statement and every injury is different. Some recover quickly and some don't. Before the injury Jamal was one of the best I have ever seen. He ran hard and had a mix of power and speed that was unmatched. I never saw the same intensity after that and I don't think it was from the physical part of the injury. It might have been mental and he was afraid of being hurt. He might have been looking to the NFL. He wouldn't be the first.

It seems like he got worse as the year went along that year. If it was physical you would think it would be the other way around.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by VolBeef88@Nov 14, 2005 5:16 PM
Where did I say he was as good as anyone? That is what I thought.
The thing is you and some others want to say that EVERY part of our team is horrible because we are having a tough year. I showed you the stats and you have nothing to back up your ridiculous statement about AF.
Prove me wrong on these points.

1. He is avg over 100+ per start. Y or N
2. He is starting on a bad passing team. Y or N
3. He is #7 on the all time Frosh rushing list for UT. Y or N

Come on now don't let your fellow doom and gloomers down and show me where I am wrong.

[snapback]191677[/snapback]​

I'm not saying he's horrible. However, he is exhibit #1 of how far our talent level has fallen in the past few years. Let's see how many 30+ yard runs he has in his career. I'm not calling him a stiff, I'm simply stating the obvious. He's a good back, but he's not an elite back.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:17 PM
Probably. However, none of the linemen Webb or Lewis ran behind were NFL standouts. Maybe having GREAT backs made those lines look better than they were.

[snapback]191678[/snapback]​

That's not accurate. Additionally, being an NFL Pro-Bowler is not the litmus test for being a good college lineman.

NFL OL
1.Chad Clifton
2.Cosey Coleman
3.Trey Teague
4.Jason Layman
5.Fred Weary

...to name a few. Also, great backs do make a difference. That's obvious.

 

[VolBeef88]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:23 PM
I'm not saying he's horrible. However, he is exhibit #1 of how far our talent level has fallen in the past few years. Let's see how many 30+ yard runs he has in his career. I'm not calling him a stiff, I'm simply stating the obvious. He's a good back, but he's not an elite back.

[snapback]191688[/snapback]​

Time will tell on that. One thing that makes a back even better is having a talented qb and passing game. In 97 JL had a SR qb named Peyton Manning and most teams came in looking for the pass. FACT
On the flip, AF has (depending on the week) RC or EA. Teams come in looking for the run and stack the line. AF made a couple of runs this week that were all him. He has great vision and runs extremely hard. Not quite as fast as JL or as physical. But I think he has better vision and cutting ability than JL.
AF also has a chance to be only the second Frosh running back (Webb) to run for 100+ in his first five starts. Not bad for a (as you called him) plodder.

 

[VolBeef88]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 5:24 PM
That's not accurate.  Additionally, being an NFL Pro-Bowler is not the litmus test for being a good college lineman. 

NFL OL
1.Chad Clifton
2.Cosey Coleman
3.Trey Teague
4.Jason Layman
5.Fred Weary

...to name a few.  Also, great backs do make a difference.  That's obvious.

[snapback]191689[/snapback]​

Liper I didn't think any of those linemen were any good? LOL
I think Jamal made them look better than they were. :whistling:

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 5:19 PM
Interesting...everyone you mentioned played on the 2001 team at the same time...for what it's worth.

TN no doubt had incredible talent in the late 90s.  Talent that few will ever assemble the likes of.  But it's not as if you have to have an NFL team to be good, if and if you don't, you finish 100th in the NCAA in scoring offense.  There is an in between.

There's plenty of talent on this team.  Chris Hannon will play in the NFL.

Riddle me this...

1.How many teams do you think have better talent than us?
2.How are their offenses?
3.Why is our offense worse than last year?

[snapback]191680[/snapback]​

1. USC, Texas, LSU, Ohio State, Auburn, Georgia, Va. Tech, Miami. There are several more, but those are the obvious ones.
2. All of those teams, with the possible exception of Miami, are vastly superior offensively.
3.Apparently, Cedric Houston and some of the OL who graduated, (Munoz, etc.), were not as awful as some of us, me included thought. Also, the QB play has regressed to an amazing degree.
P.S. Despite his physical gifts, I'll believe Hannon will be a productive NFL player when I see it.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by VolBeef88@Nov 14, 2005 5:31 PM
Liper I didn't think any of those linemen were any good? LOL
I think Jamal made them look better than they were.  :whistling:

[snapback]191702[/snapback]​

Jamal was a 2,000 yard rusher in the NFL on a team with no passing game. All those guys are NFL journeymen at best. As an aside I'll make anyone on this board a wager that Arian Foster doesn't gain 2,000 career yards in the NFL. Furthermore, Jamal has a Super Bowl ring. Does the sainted QB he played with in '97? Manning never won the SEC without Jamal. Jamal won it without him.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:31 PM
1. USC, Texas, LSU, Ohio State, Auburn, Georgia, Va. Tech, Miami. There are several more, but those are the obvious ones.
2. All of those teams, with the possible exception of Miami, are vastly superior offensively.
3.Apparently, Cedric Houston and some of the OL who graduated, (Munoz, etc.), were not as awful as some of us, me included thought. Also, the QB play has regressed to an amazing degree.
P.S. Despite his physical gifts, I'll believe Hannon will be a productive NFL player when I see it.

[snapback]191703[/snapback]​

We can agree some of that, but...

What middle tier teams do you think have more talent?
How is their offense?

What I'm saying is teams like Vandy, UAB, and all sorts of teams with FAR less talent than us have offenses better than ours. Obviously something is amiss.

Regarding the NFL, I think your are confusing talent with production. No one - rarely - is talented enough to be great in college or the NFL on talent alone; and we have coaches...

Clifton is one of the best LT in the NFL! All of the guys I mentioned start. And there are more than that (esp. consideering past guys from Webb's days).

If you're good enough to play in the NFL for a full career, you are extremely talented/good.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 5:37 PM
We can agree some of that, but...

What middle tier teams do you think have more talent?
How is their offense?

What I'm saying is teams like Vandy, UAB, and all sorts of teams with FAR less talent than us have offenses better than ours.  Obviously something is amiss.

Regarding the NFL, I think your are confusing talent with production.  No one - rarely - is talented enough to be great in college or the NFL on talent alone; and we have coaches...

Clifton is one of the best LT in the NFL!  All of the guys I mentioned start.  And there are more than that (esp. consideering past guys from Webb's days).

If you're good enough to play in the NFL for a full career, you are extremely talented/good.

[snapback]191708[/snapback]​

One factor is that Vandy and UAB have quality QBs. Give those two teams our QBs and see how they do. Also, those guys may start, but they have moved around and are average NFL guys. That said, they are certainly better than the crew we have now. I'm just pointing out the talent drain that began after "98, when Rodney Garner left for UGA. We don't have the same horses.

 

[VolBeef88]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:37 PM
Jamal was a 2,000 yard rusher in the NFL on a team with no passing game. All those guys are NFL journeymen at best. As an aside I'll make anyone on this board a wager that Arian Foster doesn't gain 2,000 career yards in the NFL. Furthermore, Jamal has a Super Bowl ring. Does the sainted QB he played with in '97? Manning never won the SEC without Jamal. Jamal won it without him.

[snapback]191707[/snapback]​

Thank you for pointing that out for me. Man all this time I thought that manning was very good. I bet that if you let all the NFL GM's and HC's start a draft and take current NFL players that most would take JL over PM, right? Your knowledge of football is amazing.
I also want to thank you for pointing out that Jamal was why we won the second SECCG. I was under the impression that Travis Henry helped out a little on the running game plan and I thought that we also had a passing game. Sorry for being wrong on that.
Also oh great master of all football knowledge thank you for pointing out that if a player is good in the NFL then they were great in NCAA. For a while I was under the impression that Terrell Davis was a good NFL runner even though he did not start at UGA. Or Wuerful was a good NCAA qb but not good in the NFL.
Thanks for the knowledge. :lol:

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 5:45 PM
One factor is that Vandy and UAB have quality QBs. Give those two teams our QBs and see how they do. Also, those guys may start, but they have moved around and are average NFL guys. That said, they are certainly better than the crew we have now. I'm just pointing out the talent drain that began after "98, when Rodney Garner left for UGA. We don't have the same horses.

[snapback]191723[/snapback]​

Chad Clifton? Cosey?

Who do think are standouts? If those guys don't qualify, the MIA, FSU, TEX, USC, AUB, and whoever else you mentioned have no talent either according to your "acceptability level." No one has standout NFL players all over their rosters.

Under your criteria, if you don't have 11 offensive players headed for Canton you are not going to be able to move the ball. Texas and USC don't have that either, BTW.

You're being too specific with Vandy and UAB. I am talking about the 50 other teams out there that suck with no talent that have better offenses than us.

 

[Liper]

My goodness...

JL got hurt in the AUB game in '98. He didn't even make it to the halfway mark of the season.

If you think Peyton Manning is not a great player, then I will let your opinion - documented - stand on its own.

Bill Parcells said PM was the best player in the NFL. But hey, what does he know?

TN has put out as much OL talent as anyone. Additionally, Rob Smith and Aaron Sears will get a shot in the NFL. Sears was even considered a Jr. come-out possibility.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by VolBeef88@Nov 14, 2005 5:55 PM
Thank you for pointing that out for me. Man all this time I thought that manning was very good. I bet that if you let all the NFL GM's and HC's start a draft and take current NFL  players that most would take JL over PM, right? Your knowledge of football is amazing.
I also want to thank you for pointing out that Jamal was why we won the second SECCG. I was under the impression that Travis Henry helped out a little on the running game plan and I thought that we also had a passing game. Sorry for being wrong on that.
Also oh great master of all football knowledge thank you for pointing out that if a player is good in the NFL then they were great in NCAA. For a while I was under the impression that Terrell Davis was a good NFL runner even though he did not start at UGA. Or Wuerful was a good NCAA qb but not good in the NFL.
Thanks for the knowledge.  :lol:

[snapback]191732[/snapback]​

Keep thinking there's no talent shortage at UT. It will all be better with a new OC. Also, we don't win squat in '98 if Jamal doesn't carry the team at Syracuse and Auburn. You obviously have trouble grasping an obvious point. Our decline is due to diminishing talent. The NFL is a pretty good place to look to find out what kind of talent a program produces. Guys like Wuerffel can hide in a system in college, but the League exposes them. Also, where Terrel Davis is concerned, what back hasn't put up huge numbers in Denver's system? For God's sake Mike Anderson and Quentin Griffin put up big numbers for the Broncos.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 6:02 PM
My goodness...

JL got hurt in the AUB game in '98.  He didn't even make it to the halfway mark of the season.

If you think Peyton Manning is not a great player, then I will let your opinion - documented - stand on its own.

Bill Parcells said PM was the best player in the NFL.  But hey, what does he know?

TN has put out as much OL talent as anyone.  Additionally, Rob Smith and Aaron Sears will get a shot in the NFL.  Sears was even considered a Jr. come-out possibility.

[snapback]191739[/snapback]​

Not saying Manning isn't great. He's the best player on the best team in the League right now. I would hazard to guess that there are a number of teams that have produced more starting NFL lineman in the last 10 years than we have. Sears and Smith may get shots, but unless they improve drastically, they will be short-timers.

 

[VolBeef88]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 6:03 PM
Keep thinking there's no talent shortage at UT. It will all be better with a new OC. Also, we don't win squat in '98 if Jamal doesn't carry the team at Syracuse and Auburn. You obviously have trouble grasping an obvious point. Our decline is due to diminishing talent. The NFL is a pretty good place to look to find out what kind of talent a program produces. Guys like Wuerffel can hide in a system in college, but the League exposes them. Also, where Terrel Davis is concerned, what back hasn't put up huge numbers in Denver's system? For God's sake Mike Anderson and Quentin Griffin put up big numbers for the Broncos.

[snapback]191742[/snapback]​

My biggest question is where to start.
If like you say the NFL is a place to guage talent then we are not doing bad since we have more than any other school with the exception of miami (i think) on NFL rosters.
As far as Wuerful goes. If you cannot recognize him as a great NCAA qb then I have nothing else to talk to you about. My level of talking down to the level of my conversation opponent is limited.

 

[Liper]

Originally posted by hatvol96@Nov 14, 2005 6:03 PM
Guys like Wuerffel can hide in a system in college, but the League exposes them...Also, where Terrel Davis is concerned, what back hasn't put up huge numbers in Denver's system? For God's sake Mike Anderson and Quentin Griffin put up big numbers for the Broncos.

[snapback]191742[/snapback]​

Didn't you just contradict yourself? I thought the NFL would expose TD, MA, and QG? Interesting.

Would it interest you to know that we have the 2nd most players in the NFL right now?

You never answered my questions about the other schools on your list.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 5:58 PM
Chad Clifton?  Cosey?

Who do think are standouts?  If those guys don't qualify, the MIA, FSU, TEX, USC, AUB, and whoever else you mentioned have no talent either according to your "acceptability level."  No one has standout NFL players all over their rosters.

Under your criteria, if you don't have 11 offensive players headed for Canton you are not going to be able to move the ball.  Texas and USC don't have that either, BTW.

You're being too specific with Vandy and UAB.  I am talking about the 50 other teams out there that suck with no talent that have better offenses than us.

[snapback]191736[/snapback]​

You don't have to have all NFL guys. But it certainly helps to have several. Look at the 2001 Miami team, how many of their offensive starters are in the League now? I think everyone is underestimating how bad our QB play has been all year. Show me a decent team with worse production from the QB position.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by VolBeef88@Nov 14, 2005 6:08 PM
My biggest question is where to start.
If like you say the NFL is a place to guage talent then we are not doing bad since we have more than any other school with the exception of miami (i think) on NFL rosters.
As far as Wuerful goes. If you cannot recognize him as a great NCAA qb then I have nothing else to talk to you about. My level of talking down to the level of my conversation opponent is limited.

[snapback]191750[/snapback]​

Using the same word twice in a sentence speaks volumes about your conversation skills.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 6:10 PM
Didn't you just contradict yourself?  I thought the NFL would expose TD, MA, and QG?  Interesting.

Would it interest you to know that we have the 2nd most players in the NFL right now?

You never answered my questions about the other schools on your list.

[snapback]191752[/snapback]​

Did Anderson, Davis, or Griffin do anything anywhere else? Griffin was the featured runner on a National Championship team and Anderson had a very productive college career. The League proved them to be servicable, but average players.

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by Liper@Nov 14, 2005 6:10 PM
Didn't you just contradict yourself?  I thought the NFL would expose TD, MA, and QG?  Interesting.

Would it interest you to know that we have the 2nd most players in the NFL right now?

You never answered my questions about the other schools on your list.

[snapback]191752[/snapback]​

We have a great number of eat, ride, and sit guys on NFL rosters. Also, check that number in about two years and see if USC, Texas, and Ohio State haven't all passed us by.

 

[volinasheville]

Can't imagine why this came to mind on this thread:

See that boy standing there by the dance floor
He's lookin' like the Marlboro Man
Starched shirt, starched jeans, big trophy buckle
And an empty Copenhagen can
He's talkin' cowboy this and cowboy that
Well I'll bet one thing's for sure
The only stampede that he's ever seen
Is the clearance at the western store

All hat and no cattle, that boy just ain't real

 

[borange]

You would think here just by watching South Carolina that it is not about having the best talent or even NFL talent. It all comes down to coaching plain and simple.</span>

 

[hatvol96]

Originally posted by borange@Nov 14, 2005 6:24 PM
You would think here just by watching South Carolina that it is not about having the best talent or even NFL talent. It all comes down to coaching plain and simple.</span>

[snapback]191761[/snapback]​

So Tuberville suddenly learned to coach when Cadillac, Brown, etc showed up on campus?