Maybe this is why we are "unrealistic" as fans...

#51
#51
Yankee_Vol said:
No one is removing them, just pointing out that its not the norm for Tennessee (even though many fans seem to think it is)
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The average if we assume 10 game seasons is 7-3. Or 8.4-3.6 if we go 12 games. Can we at least agree on that? And that's cutting out the last 10 years..
 
#52
#52
Yankee_Vol said:
Correct. Since 2004 however, our winning percentage is only .549% (52nd in the country and 10th in the SEC) which caused our overall winning percentage to drop over 2 points and nearly 3 (just over 70% to 68%).

So the last 12 years has had a pretty big impact on the program "historically."

I-A Winning Percentage 2004-2015
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And it all started with the coach in the article that was being raved about.
 
#53
#53
This isn't about Butch like him or not he is the current coach. This is about timing, we don't know the future we can only judge by the past, is the timing right to make a change even if the hypothesis "Butch can't get us a NC" is correct.

What will good coaches think about the job if we do fire him now?

Nobody knows for certain if given the 6-7 years could he do it, that's not the point. Do we need to be firing coaches left and right? Even if a NC won't happen.

11 years 4 coaches, before we fired Fulmer we had 2 in what 30 yrs.

Or fire him, I'm good either way.
 
#54
#54
JFreak said:
And once again it goes both ways. Beating FL and GA for the first time since 2004 should more than wipe out those losses.
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Given how the season played out for FL and GA, those victories aren't nearly as shiny and impressive now as they were then.
 
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#55
#55
VOL_Lyfe said:
Given how the season played out for FL and GA, those victories aren't nearly as shiny and impressive now as they were then.
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At the time we played them both were ranked and they're our 2 biggest rivals in the East. Slippery slope to judge victories in the rear view mirror.
 
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#56
#56
The east is as bad as I've ever seen it and Tennessee is losing to the likes of Carolina and Vanderbilt. Jones probably has earned another year by beating Florida and Georgia but there's no reason to believe this guy can get us to the promised land. He's a great recruiter but unless he gets really good coordinators we're going no where. Unlikely that quality coordinators are going to come on board to this dumpster fire right now.
 
#57
#57
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#58
#58
JFreak said:
At the time we played them both were ranked and they're our 2 biggest rivals in the East. Slippery slope to judge victories in the rear view mirror.
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That's actually not at all a slippery slope. Ever heard of the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee?
 
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#59
#59
Yankee_Vol said:
And BJ is at 58% at Tennessee. So if you're ok with being as good as we have been since 2004, then we're fine.
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Delete the first year of Butch's tenure (reasonable since it's a serious acclimation period) and it's .631 - not fantastic but a closer and more reasonable measure. Dickey rebuilt from a mess, had some great years, and a short tenure; so his record looks a lot more like Jones.

Every program has dominant years and then lulls; a lot of us can remember runs by OK, Miami, USC, NB, and certainly AL. Each one has fallen on hard times, too. It happens - players have only 4 years (avg), so good ones come and go - sometimes the combination of players seems like magic, and other times not so much.

Coaches are only human, and they don't last forever (sometimes it just seems so). Only rarely does a new coach replace a tradition and carry on without a hitch - all that talent that blended so well, and sometimes it flops. Then there are anomalies - the MI St that plays in the NC one year and couldn't find the toilet bowl the next.

In the time that I've been watching UT football, only two coaches stick out as keepers - Dickey and Fulmer. Majors had talent but it was deeply flawed; Battle was a slide into oblivion; won't even discuss those two. Jones isn't looking good, and he doesn't inspire much confidence, but he's not starting worse than Majors or Fulmer (in what's probably a more competitive environment), and they both managed a few pretty good years that added to the positive side of the total win history.

The thing is we've had some less than stellar coaches - worse than the present - over that 75 year span, and still outperformed the competition; that's life and that's football. If things aren't going better in a couple of years, then it's probably time to start looking. Few coaches come in and immediately do well; the ones that do are very potentially a Battle in the making - it takes a few years to get their measure, too.
 
#60
#60
So, those of you calling for Butch's head, RIGHT NOW are going to pony up the $4mil to buyout his contract? And who will make the hiring decision? The AD who hired Jones and will be stepping down in June?

Those of us with the long view, the one's in touch with reality, we're just Butch lovers? Blind sycophants to whoever is the current Vols HC?


Right...
 
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#62
#62
JPL said:
Yankee_Vol said:
People want to bring up "historical" numbers. Here's one for ya

UT: College Football's Winningest Program Last 75 Years - University of Tennessee Official Athletic Site

It wasn't just the 90's. 75 freaking years is a pretty good chunk of time.

Exactly! and fans are not ok with losing to vastly inferior teams (talent wise) like USCjr & Vandy when the SECE & then a Sugar Bowl is on the line.

There is nothing Butch can do now to undo the criticism flowing in. Even realistic fans don't want to say wait til next year because there is nothing to look forward to. We've seen what Butch cannot do.

The fact that during Vandy week Butch felt the need to attempt to justify the progress the program has made since his arrival rather than focusing on preparing & motivating his team for the biggest game of his career at TN is indicative he just does not see the big picture. Now, at 4-4 in the SEC with two losses to arguably the two worst teams in the SEC this year there is nothing to justify. It's all out there, Butch is a good recruiter & salesman & a very poor coach.
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Maybe Butch is a bad coach; there's plenty that isn't to like, but football seasons are like a pregnancy without ultrasounds and amniocentesis - or a box of chocolates without a guide. The offseason is a period of adjustment to fix what was didn't work; once the season starts the coach is a genius or muddles through the best he can. Sometimes the adjustments are just right, sometimes it's a Clawson or a Sunseri, and sometimes the "sure thing" leaves everyone scratching their heads. But after the season starts, radical changes are few and far between - it's always next year in football when the new plan doesn't work out.
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#63
#63
Tin Man said:
So, those of you calling for Butch's head, RIGHT NOW are going to pony up the $4mil to buyout his contract? And who will make the hiring decision? The AD who hired Jones and will be stepping down in June?

Those of us with the long view, the one's in touch with reality, we're just Butch lovers? Blind sycophants to whoever is the current Vols HC?


Right...
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His buyout is more than $4 million. If it were only 4, he'd probably be out of a job.
 
#64
#64
MurphyVol said:
I'm not ok with this season either bit history doesn't help your case. 8-4 is a tick better than our historical .64 winning %

Fuller's 74% was an aberration, not the norm.

Majors was 58℅, Dickey 64%

Don't get me wrong, I'd like to see the 90s numbers again.
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I still don't get where everyone is getting 64%. For the time span of 1869 to 2015 this is showing 68% winning percentage and TN listed as #10 all time.

I-A Winning Percentage 1869-2015
 
#65
#65
Iam4utalways said:
This isn't about Butch like him or not he is the current coach. This is about timing, we don't know the future we can only judge by the past, is the timing right to make a change even if the hypothesis "Butch can't get us a NC" is correct.

What will good coaches think about the job if we do fire him now?

Nobody knows for certain if given the 6-7 years could he do it, that's not the point. Do we need to be firing coaches left and right? Even if a NC won't happen.

11 years 4 coaches, before we fired Fulmer we had 2 in what 30 yrs.

Or fire him, I'm good either way.
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I can see both sides. My fear is this: if he stays and continues to fail, the recruiting cupboard goes bare. I think most top notch coaches really like stocked talent so they have to do less of a rebuild and get into coaching. I feel that the best time is the time as soon as you know it isn't gonna work. In business, you cut ties to stave losses as soon as you know it's going to fail...football now seems the same way to me. I think most of us agree that next year we are staring a .500 season in the face, and recruits see it too. They go away, higher tier coaches are less attracted because they know they just have to start all over. I appreciate the talent that CBJ has brought in, but I deplore the utter lack of coaching that talent has received.
 
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#66
#66
Wolfeman_Vol said:
I can see both sides. My fear is this: if he stays and continues to fail, the recruiting cupboard goes bare. I think most top notch coaches really like stocked talent so they have to do less of a rebuild and get into coaching. I feel that the best time is the time as soon as you know it isn't gonna work. In business, you cut ties to stave losses as soon as you know it's going to fail...football now seems the same way to me. I think most of us agree that next year we are staring a .500 season in the face, and recruits see it too. They go away, higher tier coaches are less attracted because they know they just have to start all over. I appreciate the talent that CBJ has brought in, but I deplore the utter lack of coaching that talent has received.
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This! Its far far worse to Keep Butch and let him run the program into the ground like Dooley did. Now would actually be a fantastic transition into a coach that can take us to the next level.
 
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#67
#67
Yankee_Vol said:
And BJ is at 58% at Tennessee. So if you're ok with being as good as we have been since 2004, then we're fine.
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Comparing Jones to Fulmer just isn't fair. Fulmer took over a loaded team after Majors heart problems.

Jones took over FCS talent and had to bring it back to FBS talent.
 
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#68
#68
TN_Transplant said:
I still don't get where everyone is getting 64%. For the time span of 1869 to 2015 this is showing 68% winning percentage and TN listed as #10 all time.

I-A Winning Percentage 1869-2015
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Take away Neyland who won 83℅ and we are mid 60s even on our best decade in the last 50 years we still only tied Bama for 2nd most championships behind Florida
 
#69
#69
MWAVolfan said:
This! Its far far worse to Keep Butch and let him run the program into the ground like Dooley did. Now would actually be a fantastic transition into a coach that can take us to the next level.
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Butch is recruiting really well Dooley signed 2 stars
 
#73
#73
VolnJC said:
Take away Neyland who won 83℅ and we are mid 60s even on our best decade in the last 50 years we still only tied Bama for 2nd most championships behind Florida
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Well lets just take away everything in the past because it doesn't matter
 
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