Maybe I've been wrong...

[Herman Hickman]

Tell me, of Bill Battle and Doug Dickey, which won championships?

That's the guy who's better.

It's not really complicated. Dickey > Battle, Fulmer > Leach.

But now you have confused me. You seem to be talking about who should take over the Tennessee program today. But Philip Fulmer doesn't fit that context. Neither does Mike Leach, btw, he's not available.

If we're talking about who should take over the program _if_ Pruitt were no longer in the job, that's a whole different conversation.

You used the argument that Fulmer was better based on the simple metric of record. That ignores degree of difficulty and as such is a false measurement.

I'm talking context. Frank Solich won championships off of Tom Osborne's work at Nebraska. Larry Coker won championships with the program Butch Davis built at Miami.

Neither of them are better coaches than Mike Leach.

I gave you a hypothetical based on our present reality. The problem is we have people running things around here who seem to believe we should hire people simply because they are associated with championship-winning programs. So we get the Kiffins, Dooleys, and Pruitts of the world, none of whom knew the first thing about what is needed to actually rebuild a program. The folks who have gotten the job done? They get ignored or told they are merely "mid major" coaches.

Leach is dismissed because he has not won a title. In our situation, that is the type of guy we should be looking to hire around here because of the strength of his experience. We've got to get back to fighting weight and we're not going to get there hiring Saban's dysfunctional lackeys.

 

[drawing dead]

The university has been totally devoid of leadership for almost 2 decades mostly by design so that power brokers like the Haslam’s could use their money and power to buy influence. Tennessee athletics have become just another play-toy for a few rich and powerful.

While Alabama, Florida and Georgia realized they had no choice but to turn CEO decision making over to a premier head coach if they were serious about winning championships; the decision makers in Knoxville balked and said, ‘no thanks, we will take our chances with someone we can control.’

I look at the power players and it leaves me completely disheartened as a life-long Vols fan because I see a bunch of old men that will choose the self preservation of power and influence over doing what it takes to win in the SEC, every time.

JBVolunteer
You seem to be smarter than this.
Look at our basketball and baseball programs, they are top notch. The same power brokers you think are out to get UT football are the same ones that helped acquire or retain these coaches.
The problem appears to be that there is no viable candidate right now to hand the keys of the football program over to. People like Fulmer would like nothing more than to give the keys to a guy like Saban but unfortunately that proven CEO type does not exist.

Florida - we were turned down by Mullen
Georgia - hired a 1st time HC/ Bama’s DC
Kirby Smart

** we did the exact same thing with Pruitt **

I don’t know what it is but eating our own is definitely not the answer.

 

[Race City Vol]

Horrible comparison. Fulmer was handed a completely built program and Leach has been busy building programs. There is a reason Fulmer was not hired after UT. Programs that need coaches are looking for someone to rebuild and Fulmer has never done that. UT had won 3 SEC championships in the previous 6 years when he took over. He was only able to win 2 SEC championships in the next 17 years. You can not compare the situations that Leach walked into to Fulmer. Fulmer wasted more talent than Leach has seen in his entire career.

There is no perfect comparison, it could be said that Fulmer faced much tougher competition than Leach did.

 

[loservol]

Well there is a difference. Pruitt has made about 8 million have much have you made.

In all honesty, do you believe he is worth every penny of that $8mil? The results in the Win column said he ain't. I haven't seen proof of any QB or player development. Doesn't appear he has a real system.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

You used the argument that Fulmer was better based on the simple metric of record. That ignores degree of difficulty and as such is a false measurement.

I'm talking context. Frank Solich won championships off of Tom Osborne's work at Nebraska. Larry Coker won championships with the program Butch Davis built at Miami.

Neither of them are better coaches than Mike Leach.

I gave you a hypothetical based on our present reality. The problem is we have people running things around here who seem to believe we should hire people simply because they are associated with championship-winning programs. So we get the Kiffins, Dooleys, and Pruitts of the world, none of whom knew the first thing about what is needed to actually rebuild a program. The folks who have gotten the job done? They get ignored or told they are merely "mid major" coaches.

Leach is dismissed because he has not won a title. In our situation, that is the type of guy we should be looking to hire around here because of the strength of his experience. We've got to get back to fighting weight and we're not going to get there hiring Saban's dysfunctional lackeys.

Buck, you're a good person.

We're never going to agree on Leach, though.

 

[JBVolunteer]

JBVolunteer
You seem to be smarter than this.
Look at our basketball and baseball programs, they are top notch. The same power brokers you think are out to get UT football are the same ones that helped acquire or retain these coaches.
The problem appears to be that there is no viable candidate right now to hand the keys of the football program over to. People like Fulmer would like nothing more than to give the keys to a guy like Saban but unfortunately that proven CEO type does not exist.

Florida - we were turned down by Mullen
Georgia - hired a 1st time HC/ Bama’s DC
Kirby Smart

** we did the exact same thing with Pruitt **

I don’t know what it is but eating our own is definitely not the answer.

At this time, running a successful basketball program in the SEC is a much simpler task than running a flag ship football program. Tennessee hired a proven, premier basketball coach in a league that to this point has puts little emphasis on winning basketball. Why would they when there is no comparison with the revenue they make from football and most basketball programs end up running a deficit? Football is king and for good reason.

I do not buy the argument that Tennessee was not able at any point to entice a premier football coach. The administrations of the past may have discussed an opening with a premier coach because of fan pressure but it was not in good faith and was nothing but lip service just so they could cross the name off and say, ‘we tried, they weren’t interested.’

A few notable examples:

David Cutcliffe- Kiffin leaves in the night and Tennessee was desperate and without options because of the timing. Cutcliffe was willing to take the job however he ultimately turned it down when he was told he could not bring his own staff. We settle on Derek Dooley. Cutcliffe would have been a homerun in comparison.

According to Jimmy Hyams, after the Dooley firing in 2012 negotiations did not materialize with Jon Gruden because he required total control over decision making for the program. He was told it would never happen at Tennessee. Gruden ended up saying, ‘Thanks, but no thanks.’

For the most part however, Tennessee has had little interest in pursuing premier candidates. The money has always been there to do it. We could have gotten Gary Patterson or a number of successful coaches with a proven track record but we know going into it that they want and need to be able to run the program their way. Bottom line: The decision makers at Tennessee will never allow it.

 

[Smokey19rt]

Horrible comparison. Fulmer was handed a completely built program and Leach has been busy building programs. There is a reason Fulmer was not hired after UT. Programs that need coaches are looking for someone to rebuild and Fulmer has never done that. UT had won 3 SEC championships in the previous 6 years when he took over. He was only able to win 2 SEC championships in the next 17 years. You can not compare the situations that Leach walked into to Fulmer. Fulmer wasted more talent than Leach has seen in his entire career.

You forget that Coach Fuller helped build that program that he took over, you might say he was the primary builder of the program since he served as lead recruiter, offensive line coach and offensive coordinator. So there’s that.

 

[USAFgolferVol]

Mike Leach: 142-97 (59%) ... 3-7 (30%) as SEC coach
Phillip Fulmer: 152-52 (75%) ... 96-34 (74%) SEC

When it comes to football, all available evidence says Phillip is a helluva lot smarter than Mike.

I think your thread title nailed it: you're just wrong.

Except that Fulmer always had much better players than Leach

 

[Mccage]

In all honesty, do you believe he is worth every penny of that $8mil? The results in the Win column said he ain't. I haven't seen proof of any QB or player development. Doesn't appear he has a real system.

So far no he ain't worth it. When he was hired I said I will give him 4 years,it's been three.

 

[VFL-82-JP]

Except that Fulmer always had much better players than Leach

He had better players.

He recruited better players. (that's how he had better players)

He drove a nicer car.

He was taller. Some would say more handsome. Certainly better in the living room with recruits and parents.

He lived closer to Georgia and South Carolina, home of many great recruits.

He hired better coordinators.

He had better position coaches.

You start stringing together all the advantages Phillip had over all the coaches who didn't do nearly as well as him, and a picture starts to emerge. He was a better head coach.


p.s. You know why we think his recruits, players, position coaches, and coordinators were better than those other guys? Because they won a helluva lot of games in college. Playing and coaching for Fulmer. Think about it. Push this around enough, and you notice it's a circular argument. He was good because they were good because the team was good because they were good because he was good because ....

 

[OrangeTsar]

I have very conflicted opinions of Fulmer. He clearly built and led some fantastic VOLS teams and I feel that he loves the school. He also had some involvement in the disgraceful way that Johnny Majors was so unceremoniously let go. Now all we really know is based on rumour and hearsay and I am sure that there was some blame on the side of camp Johnny too. So I really cannot judge fairly. Let’s just say that Phillip Fulmer, like everyone else in the world, is a complex individual with constantly conflicting motives and loyalties. Some things will just have to be left up to God who knows every man’s heart.
All that said, I wish Fulmer success in his job and a great legacy at UT. But his recent decisions regarding CJP may be putting that at risk. Once again though, he sees and knows inside info that we are not privy to. It is possible that the discord and underperformance of this year’s squad originated with someone entirely out of the control of Pruitt. I think Pruitt could have managed the team much better than he did, but I realize I do not know the whole story. I think we need a new HC; but if there are deeper institutional issues like are now being reported, even a Hugh Freeze level hire might find himself faced with insurmountable problems at UT. We need a deeper housecleaning at UT than just a new HC and AD I fear to get out of our current depressing morass.

 

[drawing dead]

At this time, running a successful basketball program in the SEC is a much simpler task than running a flag ship football program. Tennessee hired a proven, premier basketball coach in a league that to this point has puts little emphasis on winning basketball. Why would they when there is no comparison with the revenue they make from football and most basketball programs end up running a deficit? Football is king and for good reason.

I do not buy the argument that Tennessee was not able at any point to entice a premier football coach. The administrations of the past may have discussed an opening with a premier coach because of fan pressure but it was not in good faith and was nothing but lip service just so they could cross the name off and say, ‘we tried, they weren’t interested.’

A few notable examples:

David Cutcliffe- Kiffin leaves in the night and Tennessee was desperate and without options because of the timing. Cutcliffe was willing to take the job however he ultimately turned it down when he was told he could not bring his own staff. We settle on Derek Dooley. Cutcliffe would have been a homerun in comparison.

According to Jimmy Hyams, after the Dooley firing in 2012 negotiations did not materialize with Jon Gruden because he required total control over decision making for the program. He was told it would never happen at Tennessee. Gruden ended up saying, ‘Thanks, but no thanks.’

For the most part however, Tennessee has had little interest in pursuing premier candidates. The money has always been there to do it. We could have gotten Gary Patterson or a number of successful coaches with a proven track record but we know going into it that they want and need to be able to run the program their way. Bottom line: The decision makers at Tennessee will never allow it.

If that premier candidate is out there, please state his name. Right here before we go any further. ________________________________

Gruden may have done great here but also according to Jimmy Hyams he didn’t really won’t to be here or in college football. His heart was not in it when it comes to recruiting.

Again, they went after Mullen but he chose Florida. Phil was left with no viable candidate and looked to his rival GA and the success they were having in recruiting and on the field and said hey, they hired a 1st time HC and Bama’s DC. He did exactly what GA did, it just hasn’t worked out.

People want Mal Moore’s success but fail to realize it took Mal 8 years of bad to finally get to Saban. And to be honest, Saban fell in his lap (pure luck) because Rich Rod could have been his Butch Jones had it not leaked 1 day too soon.

 

[USAFgolferVol]

He had better players.

He recruited better players. (that's how he had better players)

He drove a nicer car.

He was taller. Some would say more handsome. Certainly better in the living room with recruits and parents.

He lived closer to Georgia and South Carolina, home of many great players.

He hired better coordinators.

He had better position coaches.

You start stringing together all the advantages Phillip had over all the coaches who didn't do nearly as well as him, and a picture starts to emerge. He was a better head coach.

And he didn't have to build the brand. When he became HC, UT was loaded. Fulmer had built in advantages most don't have when taking over a program. Your post is silly

 

[VFL-82-JP]

And he didn't have to build the brand. When he became HC, UT was loaded. Fulmer had built in advantages most don't have when taking over a program. Your post is silly

Yours is.

See how easy it is to insult without merit?



p.s. He didn't have to build the brand because he (along with Johnny Majors and his fellow assistant coaches) had already built the brand. Or did you forget Phillip was Johnny's star offensive coordinator? Back to the circular argument: he was good because they were good because he was good because....

 

[BDP!]

Fulmer never inherited a dumpster fire. He was given a rock-solid program with a recent track record of SEC Championships. He made it better and got us a national title. He also, by any truly objective analysis, put the program into decline and left Tennessee football in worse shape than when he got it from Coach Majors.

Mike Leach has never been able to take control of an easy job. He has only been given the opportunity at programs with a high degree of difficulty. By any objective measurement, he has never left his program worse off than it was when he took it over.

You say Fulmer is better than Leach. I would love to see what Fulmer would've been able to do with Wazzu. I doubt he would've matched Leach's record in Pullman.

For the record I like Mike Leach. And I believe he has a very good offensive mind. But maybe there’s a reason why no established program has ever hired him. If he was that good don’t you think that would have happened by now?

 

[djohnnyg]

For the record I like Mike Leach. And I believe he has a very good offensive mind. But maybe there’s a reason why no established program has ever hired him. If he was that good don’t you think that would have happened by now?

Didn't he lock kids up in a shed? But I think the main thing is he's weird. They're afraid of what he'll say...and as a face of the program he's a weird face. I like him too though. I like his brand of weirdness...but "honorable institutions" shy away from it. If he wasn't weird he'd have a lot more opportunities. Imo.

 

[OEF VOL]

how sad it is for someone to speak about fulmer in this manner - he is all tennessee as a player/coach and AD - he had two losing seasons as a coach in 15 years bouncing back from 5 - 7 to 9-4 then 10-4 and got fired for another 5 - 7 season. Hall of fame - national champion but people like you get people like fulmer fired. I understand the aggravation with pruitt even in a covid year but you should be ashamed of criticizing fulmer in this way.

Funny, CPF couldn't get another coaching position any where, that should say something about his coaching ability.

 

[Butch s]

In the past, I just could not let myself believe that our coach and athletic director could be so inept. I think that's a failing of mine in that I tend to give people too much credit. Maybe the University should start giving IQ tests before hiring anyone! I thought it was a serious mistake in the past to turn Mike Leach away. He has been successful everywhere he coached and definitely would have given UT an advantage in the football minds category. I don't think a dummy could make it through law school. But then again, maybe I'm still wrong with pruitt and fulmer being smarter than all of us as their salaries are absolutely ridiculous for probably the worst job performance in college football! or probably in America anywhere! Let's be honest here - fulmer should be working for free, he's stolen so much money already from UT.

CPF is the best football coach at the university of Tennessee in your pathetic little life, you should be ashamed and crawl back in your hole. How many games have you won as head coach?

 

[docterjaws]

Fulmer never inherited a dumpster fire. He was given a rock-solid program with a recent track record of SEC Championships. He made it better and got us a national title. He also, by any truly objective analysis, put the program into decline and left Tennessee football in worse shape than when he got it from Coach Majors.

Mike Leach has never been able to take control of an easy job. He has only been given the opportunity at programs with a high degree of difficulty. By any objective measurement, he has never left his program worse off than it was when he took it over.

You say Fulmer is better than Leach. I would love to see what Fulmer would've been able to do with Wazzu. I doubt he would've matched Leach's record in Pullman.

why in the world are u trying to compare a hall of fame coach with a national championship in his resumw to Leach. yes... 5 years from now if Leach is successful in SEC which is way different that PAC 12 or any where esle and win a national championship you will have an argument. Otherwise - this is senseless

 

[GetYouSomeofThat]

Mike Leach: 142-97 (59%) ... 3-7 (30%) as SEC coach
Phillip Fulmer: 152-52 (75%) ... 96-34 (74%) SEC

When it comes to football, all available evidence says Phillip is a helluva lot smarter than Mike.

I think your thread title nailed it: you're just wrong.

He has had 1 season after taking over a dumpster fire. CPF's started woth oodles if talent amd a kid named Heath Shuler waiting in the wings.

Very poor comparison

 

[VFL-82-JP]

He has had 1 season after taking over a dumpster fire. CPF's started woth oodles if talent amd a kid named Heath Shuler waiting in the wings.

Very poor comparison

Mike Leach has been head coach for 19 football seasons over a 21-year span, at three different universities.

That record I quoted for him? That includes all of that. 59% win rate, 30% since joining the SEC. And a lot of those years came AFTER he'd already had several seasons at this school or that school to establish better conditions and get his own version of Heath Shuler into the wings.

He has actually had more time as head coach than Phillip Fulmer.

So it's a pretty fair comparison. In fact, the comparison favors Leach a bit.

To argue that Mike Leach is suddenly going to be a much better coach than he's been in the past...well, that's very wishful thinking.


p.s. As offensive coordinator prior to taking the reins, I'm going to bet Fulmer had at least a little to do with Shuler waiting in the wings to wear orange and white. I'm going to guess Phillip made his own favorable conditions, there.

 

[Mightyvol]

Let's face it there are no slam dunk hires out there right now. Urban Meyer is the best coach out there and I do not think he is interested in coaching again right now. Freeze is not the answer and has way too much baggage. There are some up and coming coaches but no one we would be positive could make us a winner next year. I think Fulmer has done the only thing he can do at this time and that is to stay put with Pruitt. Will Friend left and I expect more changes on the staff. This is the make or break year (2021) for Pruitt and his coaching staff.

Urban’s middle name is baggage. None of the guys are saints and every major college football program cheats. Saban is a fortunate dude to have NCAA president, Emmeritt, as a close friend, since Emmerit hired Saban at LSU. Freeze would be fine at UT.

 

[Herman Hickman]

why in the world are u trying to compare a hall of fame coach with a national championship in his resumw to Leach. yes... 5 years from now if Leach is successful in SEC which is way different that PAC 12 or any where esle and win a national championship you will have an argument. Otherwise - this is senseless

If developing a winning college football program in Lubbock, Pullman, and Starkville were as easy as you seem to believe, then you would have a point.

The "Hall of Fame" designation doesn't mean much to me when guys like Johnny Majors and Bill Dooley are not in there because they took on the truly tough jobs while others in there had the benefit of what others had accomplished before them.

 

[lifeisdeep]

If it’s a battle of intelligence I’ll take our average fan vs Pruitt.

I'd take the average labrador retriever over Pruitt. Probably at least 50% of labs would have benched JG after the Kentucky game.

 

[GetYouSomeofThat]

Mike Leach has been head coach for 19 football seasons over a 21-year span, at three different universities.

That record I quoted for him? That includes all of that. 59% win rate, 30% since joining the SEC. And a lot of those years came AFTER he'd already had several seasons at this school or that school to establish better conditions and get his own version of Heath Shuler into the wings.

He has actually had more time as head coach than Phillip Fulmer.

So it's a pretty fair comparison. In fact, the comparison favors Leach a bit.

To argue that Mike Leach is suddenly going to be a much better coach than he's been in the past...well, that's very wishful thinking.


p.s. As offensive coordinator prior to taking the reins, I'm going to bet Fulmer had at least a little to do with Shuler waiting in the wings to wear orange and white. I'm going to guess Phillip made his own favorable conditions, there.

His SEC record is not even remotely a fair comparison. CPF walked into a ready made staff who he had well developed relationships with. His job as head coach was to mostly stay the hell out of the way of his coordinators.

Any coach gifted those circumstances and at his alma mater no less has advantages over most any other coach around.


Added to that, UT wasnt a struggling program when he took over. Johnny had completed the heavy lifting part of the rebuild but according to legend pissed (literally) all of his good will with boosters away.

Very very very few coaches get a first gig as sweet as CPF did and when things slipped he had no idea how to turn things around, something Leach has had to do at every single stop.