Martin really isn't that bad

#51
#51
BadJerry20 said:
I appreciate the time and effort you put in to the research, and i get what you are trying to say. But comparing Zo's first 5 years to 4 all time greats is silly. You could probably find 100 guys that had similar records and failed in the long run. He has done nothing in the first 2 years here to make us think he will be that caliber of a coach. Honestly last night looked like a guy coaching his very first game. Hopefully you are proven right and he becomes an all time great, but as of now I have serious doubts in his coaching ability. I can handle loses, and thought it would take a few years to get back to where we were. But performances like last night are inexcusable.
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What did Coach K do in his first 10 years to ever make you think he was going to be a good coach?
 
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#52
#52
iKrager said:
What did Coach K do in his first 10 years to ever make you think he was going to be a good coach?
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Well if you wanna go 10 for some odd reason, he finished 14th in year 9 and 10th in year 10. But since I am talking about visually seeing improvements, hell if I know. I wasn't born in his first 2 years and was a kid the other 8. Again you could probably find a 100 coaches with similar records that failed. Do you think he is the next Coach K, or Izzo or Cal?
 
#53
#53
I do want to say I'm not anti Martin by any means, honestly I love UT so much that I would support any coach that was coaching them. But I'm also never gonna sugar coat or not be 100% honest in what I see, good or bad. Like I said I hope you are right and he follows those coaches paths, but I just don't see an indication that leads me to believe that will happen.
 
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#54
#54
I completely see what you're saying JB, all I'm saying is there is time for a coach to become a better coach. We can't throw Martin under the bus after starting his 3rd season, it too those coaches I mentioned several seasons to get the jist of things. Sure, Martin's made mistakes - but so did those other coaches when they first started out. I think Martin's on the right track, he's had some points where you go "wow what the **** was that" but then you see times where he beats Florida every time or goes on an 8 game run, and then wonder "is this my Martin?". I'm not trying to sugar coat anything, we all know Martin needs to improve to keep his job and his fans happy, he's done okay but don't throw in the reigns because he did an okay job his first two years.

He can learn from coaching mistakes, the only way to learn is to make mistakes right?
 
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#55
#55
iKrager said:
I completely see what you're saying JB, all I'm saying is there is time for a coach to become a better coach. We can't throw Martin under the bus after starting his 3rd season, it too those coaches I mentioned several seasons to get the jist of things. Sure, Martin's made mistakes - but so did those other coaches when they first started out. I think Martin's on the right track, he's had some points where you go "wow what the **** was that" but then you see times where he beats Florida every time or goes on an 8 game run, and then wonder "is this my Martin?". I'm not trying to sugar coat anything, we all know Martin needs to improve to keep his job and his fans happy, he's done okay but don't throw in the reigns because he did an okay job his first two years.

He can learn from coaching mistakes, the only way to learn is to make mistakes right?
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I know it takes time, and I hope he gets there, honestly I just have a bad taste in my mouth after last night. As I've said I can handle losing, I mean it happens, but it's in the way we lost. And I don't mean to come across as giving up on the season or on Martin. I do have worries about Martin, but I still think we have a great season. Also as I said earlier, I do get what you are trying to say, greatness doesn't happen overnight. If we had lost and he coached a good game I'd be defending him right now. I'm not one of those fire Qwanzo guys, I really try to be as down the middle as I can be so my judgement isn't impaired in either direction. Hell I was defending him in a thread earlier, he greatly overachieved his first year. Some people don't realize that. I just wish he wasn't so stubborn, sometimes it feels like he is determined to show everyone they can win his way. Like you said I hope he gets there I really do, and I still think we have a great season.
 
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#58
#58
I agree with OP but the problem is that we don't have any real true shooters on this team that can just let it go. We can go "cold" shooting in a heartbeat and not get out of the slump the whole game. Scoring points is the simple issue.
 
#60
#60
The point in presenting all that information in the OP is to prove that there are good coaches who have started their careers slowly, and turned it around. It's not proof-positive that it is a certainty to happen. Sure, there are plenty more examples of coaches who flamed out, but the post wasn't made to compare the ratio of the two, but rather to show that not every coach comes in and lights the world on fire from the opening tip of their careers.

It's a fair criticism to have wanted to see more improvement, but I would just caution you to let this season play out before we torch the mattresses. Martin's success or failure will take care of itself.
 
#62
#62
iKrager said:
Darius Thompson is a solid pg, no true centers though.
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I have seen Thompson play twice now - once in person and then on TV - that's why I asked have we signed a point guard in this class - so what you are telling me is - no "true" point guard that can keep up with the other teams point guard or is quick enough to penetrate and distribute and get assists and no big man. No power forward, no center, no point guard.

Humm - what could go wrong here. Bruce's teams struggled when just one of these pieces were missing - I got to tell you guys this scares me and I don't think you can compete effectively with this many pieces missing. Because of the new rules Stokes will either have to adjust his game or he will be back next year and if that happens that will fill one of those spots and I know Thompson will improve but you can't teach speed and quickness. Thompson would be slow at the 3 he is beyond slow for a point guard imo - not his fault -he is tall and lanky.
 
#63
#63
Spartacavolus said:
I have no idea what that has to do with analyzing the true suckiness of last night's coaching. Just analyze the game for what it was and move on. It's not personal to talk about mistakes. If that's me, I'm not making them again and adjusting some things that we do. If he doesn't adjust, so be it. I hope he does. I just worry that when it gets tight he reverts to bad habits.
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The biggest mistake made was not practicing his offense in exhibition.
They may have found some early rhythm had he not waited until his first game against a decent D1 opponent on the road to do so.
There were some signs late in the game that we'll be okay.
Lot's of fight left.
FTs and rebounding another story..
 
#64
#64
Fullfillmer said:
I have seen Thompson play twice now - once in person and then on TV - that's why I asked have we signed a point guard in this class - so what you are telling me is - no "true" point guard that can keep up with the other teams point guard or is quick enough to penetrate and distribute and get assists and no big man. No power forward, no center, no point guard.

Humm - what could go wrong here. Bruce's teams struggled when just one of these pieces were missing - I got to tell you guys this scares me and I don't think you can compete effectively with this many pieces missing. Because of the new rules Stokes will either have to adjust his game or he will be back next year and if that happens that will fill one of those spots and I know Thompson will improve but you can't teach speed and quickness. Thompson would be slow at the 3 he is beyond slow for a point guard imo - not his fault -he is tall and lanky.
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Larry Austin - Yahoo! Sports
 
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#65
#65
iKrager said:
Since everyone thinks this season is over by losing one game on the road (stupid right?), I've decided to make this thread to show you Cuonzo really isn't that bad. Believe me or not, it's you who has to decide. (Please read the final comment before posting)

Point: This thread is comparing successful college basketball coaches to Cuonzo, we'll look specifically at W-Ls and their postseason success for their first 5 years as a head coach.


Cuonzo Martin @ Tennessee:
Year: Record Postseason
2008-09: 11-20 DNP
2009-10: 24-12 CIT Champions
2010-11: 26-9 NIT Second Round
Year: Record Postseason
2011-12: 19-15 NIT Second Round
2012-13: 20-13 NIT First Round

Overall record: 100-69 (.588)

Coach Krzyzewski @ Army and Duke
ARMY
Year: Record Postseason
1975-76: 11-14 DNP (Did Not Place)
1976-77: 20-8 DNP
1977-78: 19-9 NIT Second Round
1978-79: 14-11 DNP
1979-80: 9-17 DNP

Overall record: 73-59 (.553)

DUKE
Year: Record Postseason
1980-81: 17-13 NIT Quaterfinals
1981-82: 10-17 DNP
1982-83: 11-17 DNP
1983-84: 24-10 NCAA Second Round
1984-85: 23-8 NCAA Second Round

Overall record: 85-65 (.566)
10-year record: 158-124 (.560)

Jim Calhoun @ Northwestern and Connecticut
Northwestern
Year: Record Postseason
1972-73: 19-7 DNP
1973-74: 12-11 DNP
1974-75: 12-12 DNP
1975-76: 12-13 DNP
1976-77: 12-14 DNP

Overall record: 67-57 (.540)

Connecticut
Year: Record Postseason
1986-87: 9-19 DNP
1987-88: 20-14 NIT Champions
1988-89: 18-13 NIT Quarterfinals
1990-91: 31-6 NCAA Elite Eight
1991-92: 20-11 NCAA Sweet Sixteen

Overall record: 98-63 (.609)
10-year record: 165-120 (.579)

Tom Izzo @ Michigan State
Year: Record Postseason
1995-96: 16-16 NIT Second Round
1996-97: 17-12 NIT Second Round
1997-98: 22-8 NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1998-99: 33-5 Final Four
1999-00: 32-7 NCAA Champions

Overall record: 120-48 (.714)

John Calipari @ UMass and Memphis
UMass
Year: Record Postseason
1988-89: 10-18 DNP
1989-90: 17-14 NIT First Round
1990-91: 20-13 NIT Semifinals
1991-92: 30-5 NCAA Sweet Sixteen
1992-93: 24-7 NCAA Second Round

Overall record: 101-57 (.639)

Memphis
Year: Record Postseason
2000-01: 21-15 NIT Semifinals
2001-02: 27-9 NIT Champions
2002-03: 23-7 NCAA First Round
2003-04: 22-8 NCAA Second Round
2004-05: 22-16 NIT Semifinals

Overall record: 115-55 (.676)
10-year record: 216-112 (.658)


Are you seeing a pattern? Wow, that's weird these all time great basketball coaches weren't successful their first couple years of basketball? So if Coach K didn't do well his first 10 years, he obviously won't learn/coach X's and O's - see how that philosophy worked out? Some of these coaches had turrible post season success, but eventually became national champions. Look at all these coaches who developed into great coaches, it wasn't easy their first couple years, but look where they are now!!

Cuonzo his first year here overachieved, we've all heard the story: picked to place 7th in conference finished T-2nd overall. His second year here, he had the talent but losing your leading scorer will effect your team and too many bad losses held us back: finished 5th in conference.

This is Cuonzo's 3rd year here, he's done a decent job so far (.588 isn't bad). I loved Bruce Pearl, a great guy, a good coach, but sadly he is not our coach anymore (and he probably never will be). If you can't back Cuonzo for now, then don't bother posting here or even attending a game - why would you?


tl;dr - Cuonzo is our coach now, we all loved Bruce, but lets face it - unless Cuonzo doesn't make the tournament with avoiding injuries - Bruce isn't coming back. The first stop is Martin town either get on or get off. We have hell of a season to look forward to, we'll get all of our first game worries out the way when we crush our next couple opponents then on to Battle 4 Atlantis.

Enjoy a good season ahead of us and let's get pumped for some Tennessee Basketball!
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All this shows is it is hard for even great coaches to succeed at Army, UMass, and Northwestern - nothing has changed here and the same is true today. What your summary did show was that once these coaches had advanced to Major programs they dramatically improved things by their fourth year - I am willing to wait till next year to judge coach Martin. I would love to be surprised, but I don't think we will like what we see in year 4 and year 5.
 
#69
#69
calban said:
The biggest mistake made was not practicing his offense in exhibition.
They may have found some early rhythm had he not waited until his first game against a decent D1 opponent on the road to do so.
There were some signs late in the game that we'll be okay.
Lot's of fight left.
FTs and rebounding another story..
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imo, the biggest mistake was getting up and down the floor and letting guys just play ball in the exhibitions then reverting back to old losing ways walk it up and stand around or pass it around aimlesslessly 30 feet from the basket type ball that they played last game.
We don't really need to run a set offense to score and let our skill be seen. We just need to let them play ball, send some picks and have better spacing.
 
#70
#70
Spartacavolus said:
imo, the biggest mistake was getting up and down the floor and letting guys just play ball in the exhibitions then reverting back to old losing ways walk it up and stand around or pass it around aimlesslessly 30 feet from the basket type ball that they played last game.
We don't really need to run a set offense to score and let our skill be seen. We just need to let them play ball, send some picks and have better spacing.
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Agree. And my biggest concern coming in to this season was whether or not Zo could adjust to the talent he has.
didn't get to see the exhibitions so my concerns are warranted from what I've seen so far.
 
#71
#71
Spartacavolus said:
imo, the biggest mistake was getting up and down the floor and letting guys just play ball in the exhibitions then reverting back to old losing ways walk it up and stand around or pass it around aimlesslessly 30 feet from the basket type ball that they played last game.
We don't really need to run a set offense to score and let our skill be seen. We just need to let them play ball, send some picks and have better spacing.
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Do you fell they opened it up more in the second half? We put up 40 something points in the second half, so our scoring was definitely up.
 
#72
#72
bleedingTNorange said:
Do you fell they opened it up more in the second half? We put up 40 something points in the second half, so our scoring was definitely up.
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when they get desperate, yes. Then you have McRae hitting some shots late. At least 6 pts on late 3's that I recall.

I don't understand at all not pushing the pace and attacking the rim early. The best teams like Duke, Mich St, etc all do it. If they don't see something good they will back it out and set up a little, but at least they try to attack early. Even Stokes likes to get down and pin his man early before the D can set up. That's when he gets the ball, turns and finishes. We did that once.
One more thing that irks me is CM never goes 2 for 1. We lost the first half and got the ball with 50 seconds left. Instead of attacking early, hitting a cutter, or kicking it back out for a 3, then getting the ball back with 10+ seconds on the shot clock, we milk the clock, Xavier gets the last shot and scores. In a game where a possession can make the difference, I don't have any idea why you wouldn't give your team a chance to score 2-3 more points before the half.
 
#73
#73
bleedingTNorange said:
Do you fell they opened it up more in the second half? We put up 40 something points in the second half, so our scoring was definitely up.
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I think we opened it a little, but the biggest difference was that we simply made shots that we were missing in the first half.
 
#74
#74
Spartacavolus said:
when they get desperate, yes. Then you have McRae hitting some shots late. At least 6 pts on late 3's that I recall.

I don't understand at all not pushing the pace and attacking the rim early. The best teams like Duke, Mich St, etc all do it. If they don't see something good they will back it out and set up a little, but at least they try to attack early. Even Stokes likes to get down and pin his man early before the D can set up. That's when he gets the ball, turns and finishes. We did that once.
One more thing that irks me is CM never goes 2 for 1. We lost the first half and got the ball with 50 seconds left. Instead of attacking early, hitting a cutter, or kicking it back out for a 3, then getting the ball back with 10+ seconds on the shot clock, we milk the clock, Xavier gets the last shot and scores. In a game where a possession can make the difference, I don't have any idea why you wouldn't give your team a chance to score 2-3 more points before the half.
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I agree with all that.

I will say, and no this isn't an excuse, but our gameplan (Martin said as much) was to pound it inside early to Stokes and Maymon. Stokes goes out with foul trouble and it derailed what our gameplan was.

Now that's obviously piss poor coaching if you can't adjust, just sharing what I thought maybe the initial problem was.

100% agree on 2-1, I've always been a big supporter of that and never understood why we don't....Especially having a guy like McRae that seemingly can get into the lane whenever he wants.
 
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#75
#75
cncchris33 said:
I think we opened it a little, but the biggest difference was that we simply made shots that we were missing in the first half.
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Which is a point I was trying to make to Bruin. Just because we score more doesn't simply mean we are playing faster. We missed so many gimmes (including free throws) in the first half, that typically we hit. If we hit a decent percent of our free throws all of a sudden we scored in the 70s.
 
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